Does "state of the art" matter?

[E-Stat]

A few points:

For years I have been amazed as to how no matter what the topic is - could be about *trimming toenails* - the discussion somehow gets steered by RGA to Audio Note. I hope Peter gives him great deals.

rw

[Ajani]

For years I have been amazed as to how no matter what the topic is - could be about *trimming toenails* - the discussion somehow gets steered by RGA to Audio Note. I hope Peter gives him great deals.

rw

LOL...

[RGA]

For years I have been amazed as to how no matter what the topic is - could be about *trimming toenails* - the discussion somehow gets steered by RGA to Audio Note. I hope Peter gives him great deals.

rw

It's an audio forum - people usually have topics about recommending something at a certain price point - they make over 700 products from $50 to well over a half million. And IME they usually do at least a good a job at it as anyone else and IME usually a lot better. Does not have to be steered - topic is about SET - well IMO if you are going to talk about SET and you have not heard "arguably" the best SET maker then you have not heard what the technology can do. Listening to some $800 Chinese make is hardly representative. If you are going to talk about what CD players can do and you have not heard a zero times oversampling player without filters then IMO you are missing out on what CD can actually sound like. When you want to listen to HE speakers but you're not a fan of horns or single drivers then.... or suspended floaty turntables with three motors which is similar to certain other players but really not.

It is irritating and I get that - but I believe in recommending what I perceive to be best first. Someone wants a CD player after owning and trading in their 5th player in 7 years - well rather than buying the same old (and similar sounding) upconverting upsampling Burr Brown laced chipset CD player with heavy filtering and noise shaping - and still never being happy - gee why not a different approach?

Ajani does bring up some valid points - the main ones are the lack of ability to audition to thus verify what I say or Peter or other reviewers say. So it is fair to be skeptical until such time as you can audition. The other point about the bigger makes being easy targets - well I made the same argument 6 years ago on a forum defending B&W from people who were knocking it. I said - they must be good if they sell the most (in the high end) and after all it is audiophiles buying it. (I did albeit entry level I still bought and I did like the speaker). So I can't blame anyone who makes the same argument that I made then. Where i disagree is on flying down to hear one company. One doesn't do that. There are shows throughout the U.S. with lots of chances to audion lots of unknown gear not just one company.

Ajani didn't address the point about a very high relative proportion of reviewers who own AN gear to actual sales. For instance you would expect more reviewers to own say B&W loudspeakers or Dynaudio Loudspeakers across most of the major review sites since they are after all Speaker companies and Both make speakers at a variety of price points up tot he veyr expensive. Since this is their bread and butter industry and they're considered "high end" - Audio Note who has not been selling speakers as long - hasn't had nearly the number of reviewers or people who have auditioned them - have a FAR FAR higher percentage of those reviewers owning the speakers relative to respective sales.

No not everyone will like them - that's fair to say - but that's true of anything - that's not really the point though. The point is you can't really be deliberately ignorant that that is going on and it's something pretty rare when a sizable consensus is occuring. 5 years ago when I was raving - yes it could be said RGA is a loon for raving - but when people at every major magazine are buying - either I am astoundingly convincing - and seriously doubt it (indeed it would be their chance to "get me" and their smaller competing publication. So no it is more that the people who bothered to listen hear what I hear. But what is more telling to me is what they left behind.

And there are a fair amount of dealers in the major U.S. cities. After all they need a certain number of dealers to be able to be reviewed by Stereophile. They're in California, New York, The Boston area, Michigan, Colorado, Virginia, Washington, Florida, and Kansas. And there are several owners who will be happy to demo it in other regions. That's how I heard a level five system for the first time. This from a man who had Mark Levinson come to his house and set up his flagship system.

I could make other HE/SET selections but it's not like the best ones of these are anymore available. how many Trenner and Freidl dealers are in your town? And at $25k - it's way out of the realm of affordability for most. The best stuff is not sold on every street corner like McDonalds. You want Micky D's you can find it nearly everywhere - if you want Bentley, Bughati - you have to seek it out.

[JoeE SP9]

The topic is not about SET's or HE speakers. It seems that E-Stat is correct. No matter what the discussion is you (RGA) manage to shill for Audio Note. I suggest you read the title of the thread.

I suppose being a reviewer has its perks. If you're not getting a serious "accommodation" for being one of Audio Note's biggest boosters you should have a talk with "Peter". Also the price you continue to quote for the Shengya Mono-blocks is $500 less than the advertised price. Is this because you were "accommodated"? If someone started a thread about electronic crossovers I'm fairly certain you would manage to mention SET's, HE speakers and Audio Note.

Just to refresh your memory the title of this thread is, "Does "state of the art" matter?".

BTW: My answer to that is yes.

[Ajani]

topic is about SET

No, not at all... Just look at the title of the thread....

[Ajani]

the title of this thread is, "Does "state of the art" matter?".

BTW: My answer to that is yes.

To get the discussion back on track: Why does it matter?

[Feanor]

Many true music lovers (aka conductors and musicians) have poor systems in general.

rw

At the two classical music sites I visit most often (and recommend), the various members have a full range of systems from standard computer/MP3 players to pretty high-end systems. However the typical member has a compact or entry level system.

Many of these people extensive musical training and quite a few are performing musicians; there is even a scattering of composers. (Personally I have none of these qualifications.) Often these musically sophisticated just don't care about recreating the concert hall experience in their home -- they get enough concert hall experience in the concert hall. When they listen, they are most interested in the technical nuances of interpretation or performance, and modest systems suffice for these purposes.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php

http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/index.php

[mlsstl]

Does "state of the art" matter?

Sure. It is always good that people try to advance the state of music reproduction with new ideas and improved techniques.

Sometimes those efforts will result in improvements for ordinary gear and other times SOTA is little more than an exercise in ego and ostentation.

However, the bigger problem is that by itself SOTA is an ill-defined term with no broad reference. What one person calls SOTA can be meaningless to others, especially if the gear focuses on some aspects to the exclusion of others.

A good example for me are the expensive Wilson speakers. There's a whole lot of effort and expense put forth that, for me, doesn't represent an improvement. However, the company stays in business and has a devoted following. But it's a good illustration that one person's SOTA can be irrelevant for others.

The good news is that always gives another opportunity for meaningless debate on an internet forum. ;-)

[JoeE SP9]

To get the discussion back on track: Why does it matter?

IMO there are two main reasons.

1. After building and selling a few cost no object SOTA products a manufacturer can "trickle down" that technology to real world products that the rest of us can afford to buy.

2. It gives us real world buyers a target to aim at when buying.

It's kind of like asking, with referrence to automobiles, "Does racing improve the breed?". With high performance cars I believe racing does improve what consumers can buy. IMO this also applies to audio gear. If a piece of SOTA audio equipment is the equivalent of a "Corvette C6-R" then what you or I can afford is the equivalent of a ZR-1 That ZR-1 wouldn't exist if not for the C6-R. Likewise, Wilson WATT/Puppy's wouldn't have been made without the prior existence of the WAMM. I'm not a Wilson fan I'm just using them as an example. A more real world comparison might be a Magnepan MG-20.1 vs. a MG-1.7.

I think that motor heads and audiophiles are on the same page philosophically. As for me, I have both feet firmly set in both camps.

[RGA]

The topic is not about SET's or HE speakers. It seems that E-Stat is correct. No matter what the discussion is you (RGA) manage to shill for Audio Note. I suggest you read the title of the thread.

I suppose being a reviewer has its perks. If you're not getting a serious "accommodation" for being one of Audio Note's biggest boosters you should have a talk with "Peter". Also the price you continue to quote for the Shengya Mono-blocks is $500 less than the advertised price. Is this because you were "accommodated"? If someone started a thread about electronic crossovers I'm fairly certain you would manage to mention SET's, HE speakers and Audio Note.

Just to refresh your memory the title of this thread is, "Does "state of the art" matter?".

BTW: My answer to that is yes.

Grant Fidelity often has sales on their gear. The PM 150 has sold for $1600 a pair. They have a list price on their website and when you scroll down you can see what they are selling them for. The list price is $2400 for example and right now they are selling them for $2000 a pair. http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Shengy...ocks-pair.html

When I reviewed the Rita it was over $4000 now it is $2950. http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Grant-...Amplifier.html The prices changed from what I understand because they are taking themselves out of the chain a little bit by having it shipped directly to customers from China rather than shipping to GF in Canada and then on to customers. Saves two shipping prices and brokerage etc. At $4k it's a great amp and under $3k it's even better. I don't own GF amplification or the Shengya's. Nor do I own the AN E - the speaker I most often talk about, nor do I own AN digital which I like over what I do own.

It takes two to have a conversation. The question was about SOTA gear or IMO the best gear - and why it might be a good idea to know what the best gear sounds like in order to have a reference of sound quality when hearing how close lower priced gear gets.

Ajani has suggested that there is no point in hearing high priced gear and alluded to the notion that paying more doesn't get you more - note the thread about products doubling their price in the british market and still doing better. Read: expensive gear sounds no better than cheap gear or read "anyone who spends more than me is only paying for audio jewelry".

So I brought up two points:

1) within a company line-up - a maker makes a $500 speaker a $2k speaker a $5k speaker a $10K speaker and a $50k speaker. In those cases in most every case the more expensive speaker sounds a lot better - therefore when you spend more you do in fact get more. Same applies to amps, CD players, and turntables etc. A Rega P3 is better than a P2. Upper end Shure or Ortofon is better than their $30 cartridges. Paying more gets you more. This nullifies the argument.

2) I brought up a house sound argument - that it's possible to prefer the house sound of a competing company for less money. I used Vandersteen as the example. The $50k Vandersteen sounds a helluva lot better than the $2k Vandersteen. So if you like the house sound of Vandersteen the $50k is worth it. But I prefer the AN E at $7500 because I prefer the sound of this speaker - I used a personal example but you could also make the case for other speakers - you might like the Gallo 3.5 or a King Sound Prince II for $8k again because you prefer the take on sound over what Vandersteen's house sound is doing. This would be the case for amplifiers or CD players or turntables etc.

Point 1 illustrates that Ajani is dead wrong in that paying more does in fact get you more.
Point 2 illustrates that Ajani could be absolutely right in that FAR less pricey gear could to certain individuals be a lot better than far costlier equipment

And when I see a thread about what is the best sound I think SET/HE. So yes it is about SET/HE because if you don't have that - you don't have the best sound - you're not even on the track to get the best sound. This is my take it on it having heard excellent examples of it. And yes this is "My Opinion." And yes others may not share it and I know people who don't. However, I am talking to people on forums who have not heard it and bring up Klipsch and ~$800 SET amps as stuff they'd "like to hear." Ajani on another thread is talking about trying Zu and a cheap SET amp. All for what $4k? So he hasn't even heard an affordable example of the technology let alone an upscale example. So why talk about whether hearing the best and Sota when he hasn't even heard an entire technology camp that many people find to be the best.

My view is simple - Audition the best examples of the given technologies. You don't judge the planar sound because you heard a SME or MMG. You don't judge all SS amps based on a Crown power amp or because you heard a receiver at Best Buy - you don't judge Horn speakers because you heard a Klipsch.

You want to judge SS you make sure you audition Krell, Levinson, Classe, Musical Fidelity, YBA, Bryston - that alone is a pretty good list. But you try to hear some different examples with somehwat unique takes on the design when you can. Pass Labs and a Sugden for example.

With tube amps you try big power varieties, highly regarded varieties, different kinds of tubes - ones using KT 88s versus EL34s or EL84s. Hybrids etc. And Single Ended Triodes.

How do you know what is great when important camps are completely ignored?

[Ajani]

Ajani has suggested that there is no point in hearing high priced gear and alluded to the notion that paying more doesn't get you more - note the thread about products doubling their price in the british market and still doing better. Read: expensive gear sounds no better than cheap gear or read "anyone who spends more than me is only paying for audio jewelry".

Don't read any such thing... That is YOUR completely wrong interpretation of what I said... I have never claimed, nor would I ever claim, that anyone who spends more than me is only paying for audio jewelry... That's just ridiculous...

Also, you are mixing the points of 2 different threads and not getting the point of either them...

This thread has NOTHING to do with whether SOTA sounds better than more affordable gear... The question is whether hearing SOTA gear in anyway helps me in a regular buying decision...

So in other words: If I'm in the market for a B&W 683/CM8, how would hearing a B&W Nautilus or even a B&W 800 Diamond help me? I maintain that it does not help...

My view is simple - Audition the best examples of the given technologies. You don't judge the planar sound because you heard a SME or MMG. You don't judge all SS amps based on a Crown power amp or because you heard a receiver at Best Buy - you don't judge Horn speakers because you heard a Klipsch.

You want to judge SS you make sure you audition Krell, Levinson, Classe, Musical Fidelity, YBA, Bryston - that alone is a pretty good list. But you try to hear some different examples with somehwat unique takes on the design when you can. Pass Labs and a Sugden for example.

With tube amps you try big power varieties, highly regarded varieties, different kinds of tubes - ones using KT 88s versus EL34s or EL84s. Hybrids etc. And Single Ended Triodes.

How do you know what is great when important camps are completely ignored?

So If my budget is $4K, then please explain how hearing the best example of SET helps me in that buying decision? All I need to hear is the best examples of SET available in my budget... Whether a $15K SET system beats a $15K SS system is totally irrelevant to my decision...

[Ajani]

And when I see a thread about what is the best sound I think SET/HE. So yes it is about SET/HE because if you don't have that - you don't have the best sound - you're not even on the track to get the best sound. This is my take it on it having heard excellent examples of it. And yes this is "My Opinion." And yes others may not share it and I know people who don't. However, I am talking to people on forums who have not heard it and bring up Klipsch and ~$800 SET amps as stuff they'd "like to hear." Ajani on another thread is talking about trying Zu and a cheap SET amp. All for what $4k? So he hasn't even heard an affordable example of the technology let alone an upscale example. So why talk about whether hearing the best and Sota when he hasn't even heard an entire technology camp that many people find to be the best.

Why shouldn't I start this thread about SOTA? Many persons have enjoyed the discussion and I wanted an answer to my question... Other than to float your own ego, as usual, I fail to see the point of your usual cheap shot at me... OMG, RGA has heard SET and thinks it's the best in the word... Hence no one else should have any opinion on anything until we hear it... Yeah, that's gonna happen...

Also, though I doubt you'll ever get this simple point: Most of us are happy with the sound of the brands we purchase... Hence, we don't have a huge incentive to seek out rare products... You may detest most SS and LE/average efficiency speakers, but many of us are enjoying the sounds of our systems... I, shock of shocks, actually really like the sound of Revel speakers, so you hating them doesn't drive me in anyway to rush out and buy a plane ticket to hear a SET/HE brand you love... I will happily audition anything I come across, but I'm not going to make that extreme effort unless I'm really dissatisfied with what I hear in the stores...

If you dislike my threads you are free not to participate, I can assure you that your input will not be missed...

[tube fan]

I am enjoying this thread, but I also understand what RGA is saying. Ajani, have you ever heard a HE/SET combo? There are some affordable examples out there.

[Ajani]

I am enjoying this thread, but I also understand what RGA is saying. Ajani, have you ever heard a HE/SET combo? There are some affordable examples out there.

So what is RGA saying?

Also considering he dismissed the "affordable examples" I was considering listening to, then what would be the point? I'm not booking a flight to Cali for CAS to hear his favourite brand...

[tube fan]

RGA is saying that everyone should try to listen to the main types of music reproduction, and that includes SET /HE. My two favorite rooms at the 2010 CAS were both SET/HE. And, no, I don't have a SET/HE system.

[Ajani]

RGA is saying that everyone should try to listen to the main types of music reproduction, and that includes SET /HE. My two favorite rooms at the 2010 CAS were both SET/HE. And, no, I don't have a SET/HE system.

If that was all he was saying, then no one would have an issue with that (and he wouldn't be constantly accused of being a shill)... I also feel that we should all listen to everything... However:

1) That has NOTHING to do with what this thread is about...

2) I'm not going to bend over backwards to audition rare products... Any day I'm near enough to a dealer that has a SET/HE system or an audio show, then I'll check it out... I've driven out of my way to visit dealers to audition many brands, but I'm NOT going to book a plane ticket and hotel room to try out SET/HE... That's fine for reviewers or persons who are totally dissatisfied with what they hear at their dealers, but since I enjoy the sound of certain brands already, there is no great need to hunt down everything I've not heard...

[E-Stat]

It is irritating and I get that...

Do you? In this epic response, you acknowledge your unique fan boy reputation - and then take a breath and continue to talk about them four more times!

rw

[hifitommy]

"Most of us are happy with the sound of the brands we purchase..."

well, not forever and as time passes, we hear examples of what CAN be achieved and then look for that in what we can afford or just above that.

improvements can be made in your system this way. of course i cant afford SOTA components but hearing them on occasion guides me forward.

as nice as some of the vintage pieces look, sometimes the sound is a bit sad. once i started hearing dedicated audio separates, i couldnt go back to underpowered and underdesigned receivers and other components. i have been privy to some very distinguished pieces and when i heard affordable components make some of the same sound, i knew it was time to upgrade.

thank goodness for state of the art development.

[Ajani]

"Most of us are happy with the sound of the brands we purchase..."

well, not forever and as time passes, we hear examples of what CAN be achieved and then look for that in what we can afford or just above that.

improvements can be made in your system this way. of course i cant afford SOTA components but hearing them on occasion guides me forward.

as nice as some of the vintage pieces look, sometimes the sound is a bit sad. once i started hearing dedicated audio separates, i couldnt go back to underpowered and underdesigned receivers and other components. i have been privy to some very distinguished pieces and when i heard affordable components make some of the same sound, i knew it was time to upgrade.

thank goodness for state of the art development.

Yep... I agree (to some extent)... Over time we hear better gear we can afford and make the switch (some of that is just a lucky break - you might have a conference for work in a new city, take a lunch break to visit a dealer in that area, and come across a brand you've always wanted to try)... But unless you really hate what you hear in the stores you visit or are a reviewer, it's unlikely that you're going to trek across all of North America to seek out every brand and tech you're unfamiliar with...

I still don't believe that you need to hear SOTA to make any buying decisions (unless you are buying SOTA gear)... Hearing what can be achieved at lofty price levels is irrelevant to buying decisions at lower levels... All you need to hear are the best examples of what is available in your price range...

Some persons aim to achieve what they claim is near SOTA performance for say $15K or whatever... The problem with those claims are that they are only valid to the individual... The persons with the $150K Systems just laugh at persons for claiming their $15K setups are near SOTA... The Same way persons with $15K systems laugh at persons with $2K systems who claim spending more is just diminishing returns... There's always better available, if you have the time to research it and the money to obtain it... But so what?

As I've said earlier: My aim is not to be a Chinese Knock Off Brand, so I don't want to recreate the sound of a more expensive system... I have 1 of 3 goals:

1) Come as close to recreating the live performance as possible within my budget.
2) Come as close to recreating the sound heard in the recording studio as possible within my budget.
3) Find the best sounding system to me, regardless of whether it sounds accurate or not.

None of those audiophile goals require hearing SOTA.

[tube fan]

Yep... I agree (to some extent)... Over time we hear better gear we can afford and make the switch (some of that is just a lucky break - you might have a conference for work in a new city, take a lunch break to visit a dealer in that area, and come across a brand you've always wanted to try)... But unless you really hate what you hear in the stores you visit or are a reviewer, it's unlikely that you're going to trek across all of North America to seek out every brand and tech you're unfamiliar with...

I still don't believe that you need to hear SOTA to make any buying decisions (unless you are buying SOTA gear)... Hearing what can be achieved at lofty price levels is irrelevant to buying decisions at lower levels... All you need to hear are the best examples of what is available in your price range...

Some persons aim to achieve what they claim is near SOTA performance for say $15K or whatever... The problem with those claims are that they are only valid to the individual... The persons with the $150K Systems just laugh at persons for claiming their $15K setups are near SOTA... The Same way persons with $15K systems laugh at persons with $2K systems who claim spending more is just diminishing returns... There's always better available, if you have the time to research it and the money to obtain it... But so what?

As I've said earlier: My aim is not to be a Chinese Knock Off Brand, so I don't want to recreate the sound of a more expensive system... I have 1 of 3 goals:

1) Come as close to recreating the live performance as possible within my budget.
2) Come as close to recreating the sound heard in the recording studio as possible within my budget.
3) Find the best sounding system to me, regardless of whether it sounds accurate or not.

None of those audiophile goals require hearing SOTA.

I agree with these three points. Of course, I go to many live musical events, and love the sound of live music, and, therefore, I would like to think that the equipment I prefer is accurate as well. My problem with the usual audio measurements is that they only cover a very few of the thousands of factors involved in audio reproduction. Look at JA's review of the $80,000 Acapella speaker. His measurements of the speaker are average at best (e.g., +/- 6 or 7 db from 45 to 20,000). Yet the sound produced, yes ONLY when driven by the also average measuring ARVSi60 amp, was deemed class A. I suspect that the HE of the speaker had a lot to do with JA's rating.

For a long time, HE speakers were largely ignored (Japan being an exception). Now, fortunately, there are many HE speakers at all price points. DeVore, Zu, and Audio Note make some HE speakers that are affordable to most.

[RGA]

2) I'm not going to bend over backwards to audition rare products...

Strange that on the other thread you're willing to audition poultrygeist's suggestion of Zu and the SET - Zu has zero dealers and has to be ordered sight unseen for a home trial. Audio Note has dealers in several major U.S. states. So umm I don't get this statement. Also AN will ship you gear to try in home as well. Reviewer turned dealer Bob Neil at Amherst will likely do it on the affordable end of the scale. http://www.amherstaudio.com/#AudioNote

And incidentally Audio Note also makes a terrific floorstanding speaker that is even less expensive than the ZU audio and it reaches below 40hz and IME likely won't compress like a single driver speaker such as ZU or Teresonic. So keeping within budget a complete Zero system (the new series) will be happy against SS based systems for the same money - without the need to listen to SOTA - if this is what you were going for with the initial thread idea. Either way it seems dealers near you don't sell any HE/SET regardless and it will need to be shipped in for audition. A Zero three speaker and series front end will not be too far off the budget I shouldn't think. One reviewer preferred the sound of the Zero 3 speaker for instance over his Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MKII which is considerably more expensive. Granted part of that may be the front end gear.

The Zero series reviews over the years - the new series is better and less expensive than these as well. The new series has an integrated and one box player which reduces prices.

http://www.audioconsult.dk/anmeldels...note/zero.html
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/a...ero_system.htm

The new ones: http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/566

[Ajani]

Strange that on the other thread you're willing to audition poultrygeist's suggestion of Zu and the SET - Zu has zero dealers and has to be ordered sight unseen for a home trial.

Nope, the need to do in-home-trial is one of the major reasons why I decided against Zu... As tempting as it would be to try it, I'd have to absorb both the shipping and return and costs from JAMAICA (probably more than the cost of the speakers) if I didn't like them...

XXXX has dealers in several major U.S. states. So umm I don't get this statement.

I DON'T live in the US, so I don't get this statement... I lived in Toronto for a few years and may return, but It's unlikely I'll live in the US...

Also XXXX will ship you gear to try in home as well. Reviewer turned dealer Bob Neil at Amherst will likely do it on the affordable end of the scale.

Same issue as ZU above... And even worse, given the waiting line for your brand, I'd have to order and wait about oh say a year to get an in-home-audition... As "tempting" as that sounds, I think I'll pass...

So keeping within budget a complete Zero system (the new series) will be happy against SS based systems for the same money - without the need to listen to SOTA - if this is what you were going for with the initial thread idea.

Well at least you get the basic point of the thread now... If I want to discover SET/HE, then I don't need to hear the most expensive SET/HE systems, just the best examples available in my price range...

[RGA]

Sorry Ajani - I never read where you were living. I just assumed you were in the States.

Unfortunately that makes everything a lot more difficult. Audio Note is on most continents. In South America they only have one dealer and it's in Brazil. And not every dealer carries every line anyway.

The Zero series is a bit of an exception with wait times - it is not built in Britain to my knowledge but Lithuania - so that series can be made a lot faster. The dealer list is quite a lot bigger than it was but they're not everywhere http://www.audionote.co.uk/distribut..._home_01.shtml

One of the big reasons BTW why I recommend this series is largely because it's not a "horn" speaker based set-up. People have issues with the horn sound so finding a HE speaker that is not a horn and still has some bigger dynamics is very difficult. The choices typically fall to single driver speakers like Teresonic, ZU, Omega loudspeakers. Or you have some options like the Audio Note's or Sonist loudspeakers (and Tannoy) which are efficient but have the "spread" of frequency response without the single driver compression when pushed a little hard with rock/dance kind of music. I am not a huge horn speaker fan myself preferring it in smaller doses - really depends but it seems that cheaper horn speakers don't usually sound as good on long sessions - a certain fatigue.

With luck some dealer there will carry some SET/HE - but in the home theater is king world we're moving to (already in really) it is a very difficult market to get into.

[tube fan]

RGA, I think you are underrating the $15,000 Teresonic speaker. I listened to it for at least three hours (over three days), and it never failed to impress. Even my double bass/organ record sounded great. Both male and female voices were reproduced with fantastic fidelity.

[RGA]

RGA, I think you are underrating the $15,000 Teresonic speaker. I listened to it for at least three hours (over three days), and it never failed to impress. Even my double bass/organ record sounded great. Both male and female voices were reproduced with fantastic fidelity.

I auditioned it a few doors away from the two AN rooms at CES. The Teresonic Ingenium made my list as a top five rooms of CES performer. I understand anyone who prefers this speaker to the AN E. It may also be that my ear is more used to hearing the AN speaker sound. And the AN room also had the advantage of a much superior turntable and CD set-up. Still the AN E has considerably more low and high frequency extension and the ability to play siginificantly louder without compression. The Ingenium still had very good bass extension on acoustic unamplified music but had trouble with the heavy trance material that the AN E didn't have trouble with. It simply compresses earlier so it sounded somewhat thin and pinched on this material. The advantages are the clarity and speed of the midrange and articulation that is about as good as I have heard. Basically for me they were one/two in what I would buy because both were fairly affordable speakers - the Ingenium can be bought in a $10k version and the AN E in a $7500 version. I'd like to hear the Ingeniums with the AN front end kit. The digital especially. Soundhounds the last I was there pretty much connected an AN digital rig to almost everything. And in doing so I have heard better sound out of a lot of equipment that didn't remotely impress me. Linn's source first mantra holds some merit.

They connected a DAC zero through McIntosh Amplifiers to Cerwin Vega XLS 215 speakers and it sounded really quite good with Sinead O'Connor - a little horn sound is recognized but for the price of the speakers and what they can do - even if the woofers look like party condoms - you have to tip your cap to what they bring to the table. http://www.hd.ca/speakers/cerwinvega/xls215.php