Combos you'd love to audition

[RGA]

Ajani

While I agree you want to compare things of a certain price range - the car analogy is less useful here because a Ferrari as a sports car has few peers in the $25,000 price range (or no peers more likely). And with cars there is more relevant objective evidence of the superiority of a Ferrari versus a Prelude.

With audio it's not necessarily the case that an affordable $5k speaker is bested by a different maker's $50,000 speaker. I prefer the sound of the Gallo 3.5 for example to a lot of $20,000 speakers that I have heard over the years. So I do agree with you on the "affordable" front in the case of ZU for example which is something you would have to seek out to audition - Gallo and King Sound are arguably also speakers that most would have to seek out as opposed to B&W and Paradigm.

And I don't consider it being a clown to hear a $5k speaker beat a $20k speaker. It is about design not prices in many instances and the design that is tailored to the strengths that you may wish for versus those of another design that may perform admirably with aspects you don't regard as important.

Still in general I want to hear what is possible not necessarily just what I can afford since if I hear a true stunner I have a new frame of reference of what I really love and then try to figure out how close I can get with the budget I have. Without hearing that frame of reference I may not be heading in any real credible direction just bouncing around in upgrade land with every new product that gets a rave by someone.

[Ajani]

Ajani

While I agree you want to compare things of a certain price range - the car analogy is less useful here because a Ferrari as a sports car has few peers in the $25,000 price range (or no peers more likely). And with cars there is more relevant objective evidence of the superiority of a Ferrari versus a Prelude.

With audio it's not necessarily the case that an affordable $5k speaker is bested by a different maker's $50,000 speaker. I prefer the sound of the Gallo 3.5 for example to a lot of $20,000 speakers that I have heard over the years. So I do agree with you on the "affordable" front in the case of ZU for example which is something you would have to seek out to audition - Gallo and King Sound are arguably also speakers that most would have to seek out as opposed to B&W and Paradigm.

And I don't consider it being a clown to hear a $5k speaker beat a $20k speaker. It is about design not prices in many instances and the design that is tailored to the strengths that you may wish for versus those of another design that may perform admirably with aspects you don't regard as important.

Still in general I want to hear what is possible not necessarily just what I can afford since if I hear a true stunner I have a new frame of reference of what I really love and then try to figure out how close I can get with the budget I have. Without hearing that frame of reference I may not be heading in any real credible direction just bouncing around in upgrade land with every new product that gets a rave by someone.

Saying that a $5K speaker sounds better than a $20K speaker is still clownish, as it's just my opinion and tastes... Someone else would hear than combo and think I need to get my hearing checked... So there really is nothing to brag about... It's just stroking my ego to say that my setup beats ones costing 4X as much...

Suppose I audition this setup:

Analog Source: Audio Note TT2 turntable with AN/Vx phono cable, Arm 3 tonearm and IQ cartridge. Custom Skylan 3-layer turntable base.

Amplification: Audio Note OTO Phono SE integrated amplifier

Speakers: Audio Note J/Spe stand-mount

Cables and Interconnects: Ultra-Link speaker cables and Tara Labs Prism 11s interconnects.

And honestly find that my all Emotiva rig sounds better to me... Would it really make sense for me to claim that my system beats the Audio Note rig and that the persons and reviewers who own such a rig are fools for wasting their money. Especially when they could have got my all Emotiva rig for so much less?

Also, you don't need to upgrade with no direction... You upgrade based on whether something sounds good to you...

[RGA]

Suppose I audition this setup:

Analog Source: Audio Note TT2 turntable with AN/Vx phono cable, Arm 3 tonearm and IQ cartridge. Custom Skylan 3-layer turntable base.

Amplification: Audio Note OTO Phono SE integrated amplifier

Speakers: Audio Note J/Spe stand-mount

Cables and Interconnects: Ultra-Link speaker cables and Tara Labs Prism 11s interconnects.

And honestly find that my all Emotiva rig sounds better to me... Would it really make sense for me to claim that my system beats the Audio Note rig and that the persons and reviewers who own such a rig are fools for wasting their money. Especially when they could have got my all Emotiva rig for so much less?

This would still in all likelihood be because you preferred the overriding design.

Vandersteen makes a $45,000 loudspeaker. I can agree that this is the best sounding speaker Vandersteen makes and "IF" you like Vandersteen's house sound then the speaker is well worth the money because it is the "ultimate" in that house sound that you can get. I prefer the sound of the AN E/Spe HE at $7,500 however. I would not say that the Vandersteen is not worth it to those who are infatuated with that kind of sound but I could also make the case that if you like what the AN E does better then regardless of the price difference it would be a better loudspeaker. I liked the Vandy room as well.

I tend, however, to believe that many people fall into certain camps. I looked at the best rooms I heard at CES and then made a best of list. I noted that my fellow reviewers owned speakers from those same companies. That illustrates to me that people tend to hear "most" things similarly. I chose Acapella, Teresonic, Audio Note, King Sound as some of the better rooms and fellow reviewers own speakers from these guys. This also applies to many of the people I talked to at the show and from competing publications. I directed several people to certain rooms that I liked to see what they thought as well. There is a personal taste aspect and room limitation and budget aspect to include but in general I believe that most people will hear it very similarly. As for hypothetical comparisons I try to avoid them because too often I am in debates on forums where people slag my perspective when they have not heard the gear I am comparing it to. If I like the sound of the AN E/Spe HE better than the 20.1 for example at double the price this is not because of price but because I have heard both loudspeakers on several occasions in several locations with appropriate gear. I merely ask that there be an actual comparison before people start slagging.

As for your example - it may very well be the case. Bring home an all Audio Note rig and find out. They will ship for home demo.

[Ajani]

This would still in all likelihood be because you preferred the overriding design.

Vandersteen makes a $45,000 loudspeaker. I can agree that this is the best sounding speaker Vandersteen makes and "IF" you like Vandersteen's house sound then the speaker is well worth the money because it is the "ultimate" in that house sound that you can get. I prefer the sound of the AN E/Spe HE at $7,500 however. I would not say that the Vandersteen is not worth it to those who are infatuated with that kind of sound but I could also make the case that if you like what the AN E does better then regardless of the price difference it would be a better loudspeaker. I liked the Vandy room as well.

Here we agree... I think it's more about preference than whether AN is better than Vandy... Naim fans swear by Naim, yet some other persons will say Naim is overpriced junk... The Maggie fans are probably even more fanatical than the AN fans, yet there are audiophiles who detest Maggies... So I see nothing wrong with stating that I prefer X product to Y, for whatever sonic reasons... But I think that the mistake too often made in our hobby is dissing other persons who bought something else... The guy with the the 5 way towers and 1000 watt mono-blocks might be enjoying his stereo just as much as the guy with the 2 way monitors and 3 watt set...

I tend, however, to believe that many people fall into certain camps. I looked at the best rooms I heard at CES and then made a best of list. I noted that my fellow reviewers owned speakers from those same companies. That illustrates to me that people tend to hear "most" things similarly. I chose Acapella, Teresonic, Audio Note, King Sound as some of the better rooms and fellow reviewers own speakers from these guys. This also applies to many of the people I talked to at the show and from competing publications. I directed several people to certain rooms that I liked to see what they thought as well. There is a personal taste aspect and room limitation and budget aspect to include but in general I believe that most people will hear it very similarly.

I have to disagree with that conclusion... As a simple example, the Revel Ultima Salon 2 driven by Mark Levinson Monoblocks have been rated as some of the best sound at various shows by John Atkinson and a few others at Stereophile... I'm sure you've never put them in your top 10 list at a show... So I don't think that most people will hear it very similarly... If they did, then we'd all own similar brands or a limited range of them... the massive variations in brands we purchase is a clear reflection that we all have varying tastes...

As for hypothetical comparisons I try to avoid them because too often I am in debates on forums where people slag my perspective when they have not heard the gear I am comparing it to. If I like the sound of the AN E/Spe HE better than the 20.1 for example at double the price this is not because of price but because I have heard both loudspeakers on several occasions in several locations with appropriate gear. I merely ask that there be an actual comparison before people start slagging.

As for your example - it may very well be the case. Bring home an all Audio Note rig and find out. They will ship for home demo.

I would actually love to do an in-home audition of Audio Note gear... But shipping to Jamaica is going to be very expensive... So I'd have to be sure I want to buy... One day when I get the chance, AN is on the top of my must audition list...

[RGA]

Here we agree... I think it's more about preference than whether AN is better than Vandy... Naim fans swear by Naim, yet some other persons will say Naim is overpriced junk... The Maggie fans are probably even more fanatical than the AN fans, yet there are audiophiles who detest Maggies... So I see nothing wrong with stating that I prefer X product to Y, for whatever sonic reasons... But I think that the mistake too often made in our hobby is dissing other persons who bought something else... The guy with the the 5 way towers and 1000 watt mono-blocks might be enjoying his stereo just as much as the guy with the 2 way monitors and 3 watt set...

I think the big issue is whether the person making the comparison has actually heard the product or not. In the vast majority of cases people have not heard the speakers I am talking about. On this forum it is especially true that rather than take the time to make a point to audition stuff they would rather rip the speakers I suggest without having heard it by making assumptions. Most people have never heard a good SET based system - it's far harder to find largely because it's not made by big companies. The more is better psychology is at play and has been for a long time and is very tough to shake. I don't blame anyone because I was every bit part of that for a long long time. It took the audition to be convinced. I look at the biggest dealers in Vancouver and it's tough to find a place with a known SE/HE system to go listen to. I would agree that people like certain products in a given field - the planar or electrostat or general dipole sound would be a preference versus the Horn/SET approach. But even here the former is far more common with far fewer players than the latter.

I would say that auditioning the better dipole speakers is a lot easier than getting access to the better SET/HE speakers and that at least in my area for the last 20 years the HE experience would be based on listening to mid level Klipsch (which is hardly representative of horns).

I have to disagree with that conclusion... As a simple example, the Revel Ultima Salon 2 driven by Mark Levinson Monoblocks have been rated as some of the best sound at various shows by John Atkinson and a few others at Stereophile... I'm sure you've never put them in your top 10 list at a show... So I don't think that most people will hear it very similarly... If they did, then we'd all own similar brands or a limited range of them... the massive variations in brands we purchase is a clear reflection that we all have varying tastes...

Of course not everyone will agree all of the time. But remember there are also very vocal supporters of what I have liked. The AN E is owned by two of their writers and a third claimed it was the best sound he has ever heard and a fourth also liked them a great deal. None of them however is the editor who makes the sole decision at the end of the day.

The problem when looking at reviews is that virtually everything is recommended rather strongly but trying to separate the best from the rest is difficult. For instance I would value a speaker higher if reviewers buy it than something they give a class A rating or an editor's choice but no one does. This tells me that they want to listen to it day in and day out - not "its great for the money" or "It's great for someone else." Unless of course they can't afford the speaker or there are placement room size concerns etc. I try to look at many different magazines and their reviewers and see if something seems to be picked up a lot over a diverse review industry. And even then it still comes down to auditioning stuff. Personally I don't agree much with John Atkinson's tastes. But I have to say we are both pretty much bang on with Acapella's High Violoncello II. Lastly, there is politics at play. Certain editors don't get along with certain manufacturers - especially the vocal variety.

I would have to hear the Revel Ultima Salon II again. I am not saying that everyone will always agree. Take Mike at audiofederation. This guy is rather brilliant in the ears department and carries amazing gear and I probably agree on 90% of stuff but he didn't like the Magico, Sony or Gallo 3.5 loudspeakers. I liked them all quite a fair bit. They sound nothing like Audio Note, Marten, Acoustic Zen or Soundlabs that he carries but I am more of a speaker whore than he is and perhaps more willing to find what they do well and forgive some of their weaknesses. I made the case to him for example that the Gallo was using pretty inexpensive gear and the speaker itself is not too expensive and to cut it some slack. Sure it doesn't have the finesse or resolution of the AN E but it has heart pounding slam and a start stop on the bass line that for a party guy is hard to ignore.

At the end of the day you can only make a decision based on what you've heard. I have not heard ZU so the only thing I can do is say it looks interesting and has some design features that I might like. But until an audition I won't speak well or ill of them nor will I lambaste people who have heard them and rave about them.