Capacitors

Hey guys,
I've been an on and off member since 2001.I have an electronics background and was wondering about your opinions regarding capacitors. I change them out on old and new equipment-of course I use the good ones with fantastic results-been doing it for years.

My latest projects have been 3 pairs of low end Polk Audio speakers(Monitor 30 and 40).I put Jantzen Z- Superior and Solens in the crossovers. Man oh man did it elevate these speakers to another level.Also, just worked on a Yamaha integrated amp with really good results.

Anyone else do this..to me it's the best bang for the buck mod vs. buying something expensive and new.I'm still amazed at the difference in sound from all this equipment I've worked on. How bout you guys ?

IMHO good caps can and do make a difference in the sound. I can't comment about cap use in speakers, mine have none. No crossovers, doncha know!:hand:

Cool! I haven't, but you have me thinking about it. I have 2 pairs of budget speakers (Bic 62's and Infinity Beta 20's). Did you buy the caps on line? How much were they, if you don't mind me asking?

Check the link below. He sells audiophile grade caps and all kinds of DIY goodies.
One tweak I picked up is to line the back of speaker baskets with Mortite. Of course you must keep it away from the magnet and suspension. There are other inexpensive tweaks that you can do to inexpensive speakers.

Add an internal brace or braces to stiffen the cabinet walls.
Line the internal walls with automotive sound deadening sheets.
Replace the speaker connectors with binding posts if they are those crappy spring loaded things.

http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf

Part Express is also a good place to buy higher quality caps and other parts.

http://www.parts-express.com/home.cf...TOKEN=48454763

Thanks, Joe.

The price depends on certain factors....the quality of the capacitor,capacitance value and voltage rating.Old or new speakers-I take out the cheapo electrolytics and replace them with Solens(affordable) bypassed with either Jantzen Z-Superior or Audio Theta ppt from Parts Express.

For instance one of my speakers has an 18uf 50 volt on the crossover. Well,an 18uf Jantzen Z-Superior would cost for that one cap = $70.00 bucks. So I'd use a 17uf Solen and bypass it with a 1uf affordable higher end Jantzen.this makes it much easier on the wallet and still sounds damn good ! Or get an 18uf Solen and use a .18uf to .22uf Z-Superior..your only going .22uf higher so thats not gonna mess up the frequency response in a crossover and this is a much more tangible method financially.

I use the formula for bypassing: 1/1000= .....another words a 470uf electrolytic bypassed would go like this: 470/1000 = .47....so a good quality .47uf polypropylene is what you need.
This formula is not set in stone,however,it's a good measure to prevent any form of time smear messing up the sound in the amp,preamp,cd player,and/or speaker.If this is done in an amp or preamp the largest gain from this are using the really good caps in the signal path of the circuit.Thats where this can get frustrating if one does not have the schematics.



There are many variations for this method . Of course if the cap is a small 1uf or less I'd use a single cap....but larger values might require a cheaper Poly bypassed with a very good quality smaller value poly.

I friggin love those Z-Superiors..man those are some extremely musical caps.

Aside from swapping out parts in my speakers another huge difference was in my 1986 Adcom gfp555 preamp. God. changing out every electrolytic and bypassing those in the signal path made that component sing like the angels...I'm not kidding and i'm not very fond of Adcom(dont curse me please lol ). The engineers back then did a wonderful job designing it but they had to cut corners and put crappy Jamicon caps in it.

Swap those out for Rubycon za/zl's from Standard Reference Audio Mods and bypass the 4 in the signal path..let it burn in..sit back and enjoy the music.

Remember,if your equipment is older...it is wise to first change out the caps in the power supply circuit. Depending on the size and values Panasonic fc's from Digikey are an excellent choice and very affordable.

If your speaker are older and funds are limited..just usinf Solens will still yield great results in a speaker crossover.I bypass those just to remove that little bit of harshness in sound from them.

Whew...yea, I know I sound like a 45 year old capacitor nut..lol

I'm tellin' ya guys,if you can solder try it out sometime.As others earlier have mentioned to obtain any of these caps:

Solen, Jantzen(crosscaps,z-standard,z-superior,z-silver),Kimber,Audio Theta PPT
http://www.parts-express.com/home.cf...TOKEN=56551868

Mundorf,Solen,Clarity cap
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=404_5

Multiple good brands from
http://www.soniccraft.com/products/capacitors/film.htm

More multiple good ones from
http://www.percyaudio.com/

Just to name a few

apologies for such a verbose post to everyone.Once I get started I cant stop.Audio is my blood since I was a little kid but living on a maintenance mans $39-41k salary with a family to support limits my funding for much higher end stuff.Still, beautiful music from rock,punk,jazz etc... can be obtained in tweaking mid fi equipment for a very modest sum vs. paying thousands of dollars more just for the equipment.

JoeE- I need to try that out sometime with the mortite and internal bracing.

luvtolisten;
The upgraded cap tweak is what I would do first.

twc644;
I have done the mortite tweak on several inexpensive speakers. It is especially effective on speakers that have a stamped metal basket. A horizontal brace in the middle and the auto sound deadening sheets (Fat Mat $45 for 25Sq Ft) really make a difference with respect to cabinet vibrations. Getting rid of cabinet vibration is a significant upgrade. Many high end speaker manufacturers use 2 and 3 inch thick front baffles to help fight vibration. A large part of the cost of Wilson Audio's speakers is tied up in the material they use to construct their cabinets. You don't want cabinets to vibrate!

That's one of the many reasons I love my ESL's, no cabinet and no crossovers. I do use electronic crossovers at 75Hz for my subs.

The great thing about these tweaks is they are cheap to implement. $10 will get you 90Ft. of Mortite rope caulk. When you apply it to the stamped basket just firmly press it down and cover the entire metal basket. You should end up with a 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick coating. If the coating is too thick it will change the cabinets internal volume. The harder you press the thinner the coating. When I do this I try to keep the thickness consistant. I have not tried this with speakers that have cast baskets. I don't see how it could hurt and it may help them also.
If you do this you might as well replace the stuffing with Polyfil pillow stuffing. It's another very small upgrade. It only costs a couple of bucks.
If your speakers have those spring loaded connectors get rid of them also. Proper binding posts are cheap. The horizontal brace is just a piece of wood (really cheap).

Several years ago my brother and I put together a modest system for our mother. The EPI's we got her were the first speakers I tried these tweaks on. She commented that the speakers sound smoother (her words) after the tweaks. I thought so too.

BTW I did the cap replacement on them also. Not Solen's or Jantzens but decent ones from Parts Express

I assume you've tried the parts connection - used you could look at Black Gate but they stopped production in 2007. Martin Colloms did a write up of these caps and said they were the best he's heard but I do not know if they were designed for loudspeakers and I have never fiddled with comparisonons.

Try here for entry level to insanely priced caps. http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/cata...itorsFilm.html

RGA-,He might have been referring to the "ac" series from Blackgate for speakers. I've often wondered how those sound when they were available. I forgot about Parts Connextion-i'm broke now lol...I could go crazy spending money in that store.

JoeE-Thanks for the in depth post regarding mortite.I'll have to try that sometime along with an internal brace.Another project for me to look forward to down the road. That's excellent info !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twc644

Anyone else do this..to me it's the best bang for the buck mod vs. buying something expensive and new.I'm still amazed at the difference in sound from all this equipment I've worked on. How bout you guys ?

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I've reworked the crossovers in my vintage Advents. One consideration is that film caps have lower ESR (series resistance) than electrolytics. So, if you simply do a cap swap for that type, the result will be brighter as well. The New Advents used a 13uf electrolytic. I first tried using 13uf of Solens and found that while it was more open, it was too bright. I ended up using a new 12uf electrolytic and a 1 uf Solen film. That gave the best overall result. I also replaced the wiring and soldered the leads instead of using the clips.

rw

Wow! This has turned out to be a very interesting and informative thread. Great for folks like me, who appreciate better sound but don't have the available funds to support it. I'm sure here are many, many more like me out there. Thank you all for contributing.

The Black Gate caps will likely start to get prohibitive so if you want to try I bet sooner is better than later. Audio Note kept them in business the last several years and I know they're still trying to find something as good - but they felt BG was the best around and they tried them all. Of course best in one application may not be best in another so...

But this is the Black Gate Article in pdf. http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/blac...te_Feb2003.pdf

E-Stat,
I did the same thing replacing the wiring inside a pair of Klipsch bookshelf speakers years ago.That,in addition to replacing the resistors with non inductive wirewound types and better capacitors turned those into giant killer sounding speakers.I first tried some expensive Monster speaker cable.After burn in it was horrid sounding so I used some good solid copper in a thicker gauge.Made a big difference over time but was much more difficult to work with as it's stiffer material and easily breaks when bending at sharp angles.

These Polks I have are much lower end so i opted to just do the caps and resistors.I should have gone ahead and replaced the wiring as I have plenty here.Just got lazy in my haste to get it done I guess.

I'm an advocate of Solen caps but I feel after using them for years it helps to bypass them with something better.This takes out the grainy sound they're notorious for.Even better and more economical is your method just bypassing the electrolytics-that way you can put the money in a more expensive cap that is a small value making it more affordable and much less work. I replace them all myself simply because I hate those cheap Chinese electrolytics usually found in speakers in this price range but you get what you pay for so I cant complain.

For those inclined to replace the caps and using polypropylene......you will have to improvise fitting the new caps and resistors on the crossover. Reason being,the new caps will be 4x as large as the electrolytics..It can be done without having to build a separate board to fit the new caps althought this would be a more professional method.

I found that I have to install the new caps on the backside of the crossover board and used a $8 dollar glue gun to hold them in place if that helps for anyone new to this.

If these were much higher end speakers I would have done it full bore properly.Still,they work and sound wonderful .

[QUOTE=RGA]The Black Gate caps will likely start to get prohibitive so if you want to try I bet sooner is better than later. Audio Note kept them in business the last several years and I know they're still trying to find something as good - but they felt BG was the best around and they tried them all. Of course best in one application may not be best in another so...

A very good substitute for those Blackgates are the Rubycon za/zl series. I've used a bunch of them.Great for power supplies or in the signal path.

I avoid electrolytic capacitors in crossovers whenever possible. If you must, the Bennic caps at Madisound http://www.madisound.com/about/capacitors.php
offer good value.

The laws of diminishing returns and weakest link both apply to crossover capacitors;

Worst to best (IMHO):
electrolytic
bi-polar electrolytic
metalized mylar
metalized films
foil and film mylar
foil and film polypropylene
foil and film Teflon
foil and film polystyrene
silver foil and film polypropylene
silver foil and film Teflon
silver foil and film polystyrene
copper foil (as above)
No opinion on oil, beeswax and/or paper dielectric

IMHO don't bother going very far down this list if your system is mass market. For the very best systems, each increment in capacitor cost will yield audible benefits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twc644

For instance one of my speakers has an 18uf 50 volt on the crossover. Well,an 18uf Jantzen Z-Superior would cost for that one cap = $70.00 bucks. So I'd use a 17uf Solen and bypass it with a 1uf affordable higher end Jantzen.this makes it much easier on the wallet and still sounds damn good ! Or get an 18uf Solen and use a .18uf to .22uf Z-Superior..your only going .22uf higher so thats not gonna mess up the frequency response in a crossover and this is a much more tangible method financially.

I'm tellin' ya guys,if you can solder try it out sometime.As others earlier have mentioned to obtain any of these caps:

Solen, Jantzen(crosscaps,z-standard,z-superior,z-silver),Kimber,Audio Theta PPT
http://www.parts-express.com/home.cf...TOKEN=56551868

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TWC,
you've got me psyched! I have a good candidate I'd like to try, I have a pair of
Insignia N S 2111's
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1138085354138.
It's a nice looking speaker, but sounds, like a $75/pr speaker which is what I paid for it. The question I have, is the crossover has a 1.5 uf and 2.2 uf in parallel. I was thinking of replacing the 1.5 uf with a Kimber Kap, and the 2.2uf with a Jantzen Superior. Sound right?
Also Parts Express has Viper coaxial drivers, which would fit with little or no modifications to the cabinet for $22, which I may buy also.

I'm not fond of electrolytics as well. Honestly, the best I've ever come across are the Rubycon za/ zl series.They can take much punishment,low esr,high temp, and sound very good for an electrolytic.

I'ved used these plenty of times when I had too.Also,they are used in high speed power supplies where I work that are on 18 hours a day 5 days a week for years.I found out about them about 4-5 years ago from Standard Reference Audio Mods who sells them.

They are pricey but if electrolytics must be used then these are the one to have and are excellent substitutes for Blackgates in my opinion.The only problem is your limited with whats available capacitance wise up to I think 3300uf .

I still have to sometimes resort to the very good but much lower priced Panasonic fc's for power supplies and other areas not in the signal path. Jantzen Z-Standard and the Z-Superior are my favorite somewhat affordable higher end poly caps.

Most of my gear is older mid-fi at best unfortunately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by luvtolisten

TWC,
you've got me psyched! I have a good candidate I'd like to try, I have a pair of
Insignia N S 2111's
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1138085354138.
It's a nice looking speaker, but sounds, like a $75/pr speaker which is what I paid for it. The question I have, is the crossover has a 1.5 uf and 2.2 uf in parallel. I was thinking of replacing the 1.5 uf with a Kimber Kap, and the 2.2uf with a Jantzen Superior. Sound right?
Also Parts Express has Viper coaxial drivers, which would fit with little or no modifications to the cabinet for $22, which I may buy also.

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Absolutely give it a shot.I would go for the Jantzen Z-Standards myself on those speakers from Parts Express. A little more affordable but if you can spare the extra bucks by all means try the Z-Superiors. Just remember please, those Jantzens are huge in size okay. Make sure you can fit them on the crossover boards.They give the dimensions of the caps in the description.The Kimbers are polar caps so be SURE you install them with proper orientation just like the electrolytics regarding positive/negative..this is why they have a separate black and red leads okay.

The Audio Theta PPT caps they offer are a good sub for the Jantzen Z-Superior if you need a slightly smaller size to fit on the circuti board.Good Luck and keep us informed

Be sure to give some time to burn in before you make any judgements to the sound.Dont know anything about the Viper coaxial drivers. I'll have to look at that sometime.I'd try the cap swap for the time being if I was you unless those Insignia drivers are very poor in performance.

Thanks, TWC, I didn't realize the Kimbers were polarized. Maybe I'll just use the Jantzen Standard's instead, with the Jantzen Superior, unless you think I should just use all Standards, that the Superiors won't make much difference. I'll try the caps first, as you say.
The drivers,are very cheap, but when this speaker came out they were only $45 a pair too. Most of the cost I'm sure was on the cabinet, not the driver or crossover..
Here is the Vifa driver I was thinking of:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=299-274

I don't know much about crossovers, (I couldn't find the crossover frequency for the Insignia's) I could try the original Insigna crossover (with the new caps) with the Vifa driver.
Looks like here they just put a 2.2uf on the tweeter. But I would guess whichever way I did it,the Vifa driver would sound better than the Insignia driver. Vifa, I thought, is a decent driver.
Worse case, I could always stick a Jantzen cap on it and see what happens. Any advice/opinions you would like to offer, I would appreciate.

Go for the caps first.Since these are lower end speakers I'd first try not too expensive caps,however, this is up to you.I'd really stick with the Z-Standards myself.I've got some of those on order for my Monitor 40 Polks. I used Solens and Z-Superior on the monitor 30's-those were $100.00 a pair(have two pairs for 2 channel stereo).

Might be best to take this in steps. First try the caps. Jantzen also has the "crosscaps" which is their lowest end poly cap. I'm sure these still would yield an improvement.If your gonna go for the z-superior then use it torwards the 1.5uf.

As stated earlier by someone else it is possible to leave the original caps and parallel them with Z-Superior.That way you'd need a very small value like .15 uf for the 1.5uf original,then use a .22 for the 2.2uf original. This will save some bucks being a smaller value for the Z-Superior but keep in mind these values will be 1200 volt rated and huge in size.


You can use the Kimbers.Use a sharpie pen and put a black dot on the circuit board for the negative side .This way you'll know which hole to put the black lead in from the Kimber cap.The negative side of the original capacitor is the one with the stripe on the side okay.You do not want to install it backwards.It could lead to very bad results.

Thanks for getting back TWC, I understand what your saying (no sense putting a Ferrari transmission in a Yugo). I'll go with the less expensive caps, and as you say, step by step. I've cooled on the Vifa driver. I received a flyer Monday, saying they were on sale, $22, COMPARE to $60! When actually on the Parts Express website, the usual price is $26, so it's not as great a deal as I first thought. I'll go ahead, and order the caps, and let you know how I make out. I think I can make the larger caps fit,one way or the other. Thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it. Here's what the crossover looks like:

Gentlemen, you cannot used a polarized capacitor in a crossover. Audio signals are alternating current so polarity goes both positive and negative.

The fact that speaker connections are labeled positive and negative is probably what's misleading you. The labeling is so that you get the same phase AC voltage for each speaker - it does not indicate the presence of DC voltage.

If you put a polarized electrolytic, in a crossover it will introduce distortion. If you and crank it up, you'll fry the capacitor.

You can create a non polarized capacitor by wiring two polarized capacitors in series connecting + to +. In this configuration the overall capacitance will be half the rating of the individual capacitors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevio

Gentlemen, you cannot used a polarized capacitor in a crossover. Audio signals are alternating current so polarity goes both positive and negative.

The fact that speaker connections are labeled positive and negative is probably what's misleading you. The labeling is so that you get the same phase AC voltage for each speaker - it does not indicate the presence of DC voltage.

If you put a polarized electrolytic, in a crossover it will introduce distortion. If you and crank it up, you'll fry the capacitor.

You can create a non polarized capacitor by wiring two polarized capacitors in series connecting + to +. In this configuration the overall capacitance will be half the rating of the individual capacitors.

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Thank you for the correction Kevio. I'm curious though, does the signal from the amp have an AC signal, or is it introduced by the inductors,or coil of the speakers?

By the way, I called Parts Express, the Kimber Kaps, (I had picked out) are not polarized.

The amp itself produces an AC signal. Some amplifier topologies (e.g. class AB a.k.a. push-pull) are inherently AC. Others (i.e. class A) produce a DC signal but are biased and/or capacitively coupled to produce an AC output.

Luvtolisten,
What have you decided to do ? Hope everything turns out okay for you.If you still decide to swap out the caps please let me know your impressions.It's always made a big difference for me including amps,preamps,cd players,dvd players, etc....

Hi TWC,
I'm having fun! I took apart my Insignia's wrote down the cap values. Then I thought, what the heck, I've got a pair of Bose 301's which I'm sorry I bought, ( I bought them thinking they would sound as good as the ones I had back in the 70's, but not the case, I'm not sure whether they went backwards, or everything else is that much better). Anyway, when I opened them up, there was no inductor, but what I thought was a fuse. After reading the forums I found out that it actually is a fuse (for the tweeters) and a lamp that acts like an inductor when it heats up. The back firing tweeter is crossed over to be more of a midrange. Very cheaply made. But I can change the caps, so I will. Then I have a pair of Bic 62's, so I took that one apart too. Just to compare the build to the others. It was better than the other two, the Bose being the worse. Finally, I also have a pair of Infinity Beta 20's. I took a look inside too.That one has the best quality of any of them. They used 14 AWG throughout (the Bic 16, Insignia 18, the Bose 20). It actually had the board mounted on stand offs, the others were glued down, the Bose didn't even have a board, they were mounted to the drivers with wires running between the components instead of a circuit board. The Bose I had (series 1) did have a board. They really cheapened them up. The Infinity's were made in Mexico, the rest in China. I don't mean to be long winded, but I though it was interesting to see the various methods manufacterurers use.
So I decided , to buy caps for all of them.I ordered them yesterday. I see what you mean, it can get expensive. But I did pretty much what you did.I ordered mostly Jantzen Standard, which will be used on all of them. The Infinity called for a 12 uf, which only the more expensive line had, so to keep costs down I 'll use a Jantzen Standard 10uf, in parallel with a Solen 2uf. I did the same thing with the Bose, it called for a 4uf, so I'll use a Jantzen Standard 3.9uf with a Audio Cap .1uf. I ordered them all yesterday, It wasn't too bad, ended up being $68, + $8.88 shipping $76.88 total. I do have the tools, and skill, to do it, ( I was an electronic "fabricator" for over 30 years, for a large company here, the engineers would designed it, I would build it.) So I'm looking forward to it. Where else could you spend $77 and have hours and hours of entertainment? Thank you TWC, Joe, Kevio, and the rest of the guys, I'm really having a ball with this, and learning something new at the same time.:thumbsup:

As a person who's NEVER messed with the electronic guts of a speaker this is one fascinating thread. Thanks all.

Da Worfster

I have some capacitors on the way too. I was just going to put them in series on the outside of my B&W DM302's as a high pass to keep them from trying to do the subwoofer's work. For the 100 Hz corner I'm looking for, a large (200 uf) capacitor is required. I don't really want signals for my tweeter to have to run through that so I have a choice to bypass it with a smaller cap or open the speaker and put the new cap in series with the woofer only. I'll probably give both a listen. I'll let you all know what I hear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevio

I have some capacitors on the way too. I was just going to put them in series on the outside of my B&W DM302's as a high pass to keep them from trying to do the subwoofer's work. For the 100 Hz corner I'm looking for, a large (200 uf) capacitor is required. I don't really want signals for my tweeter to have to run through that so I have a choice to bypass it with a smaller cap or open the speaker and put the new cap in series with the woofer only. I'll probably give both a listen. I'll let you all know what I hear.

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I would be very interested how it turns out. I'm thinking of buying an used integrated amp for a 2.1 system. The amp has no bass management. I would have to use a pre-out. The sub has a crossover, which I'll probably set at 80hz. I was wondering if I could do the same as you, only with my speakers, add a cap, as well? Maybe clean up the lower end of my speakers?

Most crossovers on plate amps have a high pass and a low pass section. In other words you probably don't need to add a capacitor to the input for your mains because the high pass portion of the plate amps crossover has already taken care of that. Of course there may be a very few plate amps that just pass a full range signal to the mains. The literature that came with the sub woofer should tell you.
You should use the line in inputs on the plate amp. The line outs should be connected to the power amp that drives your main speakers.

Yes, Joe, you are correct, but in my case, my sub ( Energy ESW 8) has a high pass input, but no output for the speakers.

You might be better of with an electronic crossover. Passive crossovers and their parts are just not good for sound. Adding more passive parts is not a good thing. The reason for swapping crossover parts with higher quality ones is to minimize the effect they have on sound.
Behringer crossovers are inexpensive and well reviewed. Had I known of them when I purchased my 2 Paradigm's I would have bought Behringers instead.

Thanks Joe, I did look up the Behringer crossover, it's about $84 with shipping. (Not bad)But it's not a high priority with me right now. I'm not sure if I'm getting the integrated amp yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeE SP9

You might be better of with an electronic crossover. Passive crossovers and their parts are just not good for sound. Adding more passive parts is not a good thing. The reason for swapping crossover parts with higher quality ones is to minimize the effect they have on sound.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there's a whole "straight wire" audiophile crowd who think badly of unnecessary active electronics.

I think I would probably be better off with an electronic crossover but if I can put out $5 and a bit of stimulating experimentation to get better sound, I'm there.

Luv, I have the same subwoofer so I presume this will be quite relevant for you. What are you using for main speakers. What crossover frequency setting are you currently using on the sub?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevio

Luv, I have the same subwoofer so I presume this will be quite relevant for you. What are you using for main speakers. What crossover frequency setting are you currently using on the sub?

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Right now I am sharing a NAD T754 between HT (5.1) (speaker 'A") and the speaker "B" is strictly for 2.1. I have 4 sets of speakers I switch in and out, just because each has their strengths and weakness. And it's fun to hear something different. The speakers I switch between are, Wharfedale EVO 10's, Paradigm Titians, AV123 XL's, Infinity Beta 20's, and sometimes the Bic 62's. I use the bass management on the NAD, I have it set at 80hz. All the speakers specs run down to 55-65 Hz (at least that's what the specs say)
I did try without the bass management, and if I remember correctly, I had it set lower, maybe around 65 or 70 hz.What do you have your sub set at?

I saw an integrated amp (Cambridge Audio 640A V2) that was 2 months old, for $300.
I was thinking of getting it, again to hear something a little different than the NAD, and to eliminate the log run of speakers wires to another area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by luvtolisten

Thanks Joe, I did look up the Behringer crossover, it's about $84 with shipping. (Not bad)But it's not a high priority with me right now. I'm not sure if I'm getting the integrated amp yet.

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Madisound http://www.madisound.com/ offers a custom crossover design service for near this price, they will need either driver part numbers or Theille/Small driver parameters. You can set up a test to derive the Theille/Small parameters or get them from a driver data sheet. Madisound will also want to know cabinet volume.

Parts connection wil also sell you a crossover PCB, you supply parts (and values).

There is nothing wrong with active crossovers, but they also have limitations. Since drivers rarely follow a simple network roll off or phase characteristic a "universal" active crossover will never match the drivers exactly. With proper tools and equipment a passive design could end up a better match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by luvtolisten

Right now I am sharing a NAD T754 between HT (5.1) (speaker 'A") and the speaker "B" is strictly for 2.1. I have 4 sets of speakers I switch in and out, just because each has their strengths and weakness. And it's fun to hear something different. The speakers I switch between are, Wharfedale EVO 10's, Paradigm Titians, AV123 XL's, Infinity Beta 20's, and sometimes the Bic 62's. I use the bass management on the NAD, I have it set at 80hz. All the speakers specs run down to 55-65 Hz (at least that's what the specs say)
I did try without the bass management, and if I remember correctly, I had it set lower, maybe around 65 or 70 hz.What do you have your sub set at?

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With all those options, I'd think you'd want to have a electronic crossover so that you can quickly tweak it in for each type of speaker.

My sub crossover is set to its highest (140 Hz I think) with level turned way down. Surprised me that that appears to give me the most even LF response. I went back and reevaluated a couple times including twiddling with the phase switch. I haven't done any science or anything but with other settings, bass lines were ducking in and out as they went up and down the scale.

I'm guessing there's some weird phase response curve at the low end of these little B&W's. That's why I want to HP them. Spec says they're good to 65 Hz but also says distortion is <1% only down to 100 Hz. I'm thinking there's pure crap from 100 Hz on down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevio

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there's a whole "straight wire" audiophile crowd who think badly of unnecessary active electronics.

I think I would probably be better off with an electronic crossover but if I can put out $5 and a bit of stimulating experimentation to get better sound, I'm there.

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You are correct. However passive crossovers have a much greater and worse effect than any electronic one. With the extremely high prices of some caps a Behringer or something comparable is not unreasonable.

Most ESL owners talk about seamless response. This is because there are no passive crossovers in ESL's. Our compliant/problem comes from the different radiation patterns of sub woofers and ESL panels. This is not a crossover related problem.

Yes, I'm in the "straight wire" camp. A fanatic I'm not. As my gear and room got better my need and desire for sound altering things like tone controls and equalizers lessened. I'd like to point out that correcting room problems will give more bang for the buck than almost any thing else.

Hi Luvtolisten,
Hey man,sorry I told you wrong about the Kimbers being polar.Someone told me that on another website and I took his word as oath.My mistake-my fault---i'm sorry ! I used 4 of the Kimbers to parallel some electrolytics in my Adcom preamp when I was re-capping it. I made sure the black leads were tied to the negative leg of each electrolytic cap.

I will say the Z-Superior are in a class by themselves. When I can afford more I will purchase them.I just finished recapping about 3/4 of my yamaha integrated amp.Whew,glad I finally got all of the power supply and most of the preamp caps replaced.

I think once you get all those caps installed you'll hear a nice difference. I still have one pair to do if the Jantzens will ever arrive. Keep the soldering iron hot and dont burn yourself bud lol !

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Originally Posted by Kevio

With all those options, I'd think you'd want to have a electronic crossover so that you can quickly tweak it in for each type of speaker.

My sub crossover is set to its highest (140 Hz I think) with level turned way down. Surprised me that that appears to give me the most even LF response. I went back and reevaluated a couple times including twiddling with the phase switch. I haven't done any science or anything but with other settings, bass lines were ducking in and out as they went up and down the scale.

I'm guessing there's some weird phase response curve at the low end of these little B&W's. That's why I want to HP them. Spec says they're good to 65 Hz but also says distortion is <1% only down to 100 Hz. I'm thinking there's pure crap from 100 Hz on down.

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You're right, if I did get the intergrated amp I would go that way. My first choice would be the Outlaw 2150, (because of the bass management). I found out too late they had it on sale for $499, instead of the usual $699,the sale ended 4/20. I saw the Cambrige for $300,used, which is a good price.That with the Behringer, which would give me more flexibility, with bass management,and still would be under $400. I don't care about the tuner, where I live, the reception is terrible, a lot of interference.

You're probably right about the bass setting too, (I really didn't spend much time using the sub without using the bass management of the reciever). It makes sense what you are saying, the 8 inch driver of the sub probably can handle the higher frequecies better than the 6.5 drivers(in my case anyway) can handle the lower frequencies. I think it's better to have a overlap in the frequency even if it's not pristine, rather than to have a hole in it. I agree with you too, that low frequency spec on most speakers can be taken with a grain of salt, without a distortion number to go with it. There may be bass there, but how tight is it?