Capacitors

[luvtolisten]

Hi TWC,
I'm having fun! I took apart my Insignia's wrote down the cap values. Then I thought, what the heck, I've got a pair of Bose 301's which I'm sorry I bought, ( I bought them thinking they would sound as good as the ones I had back in the 70's, but not the case, I'm not sure whether they went backwards, or everything else is that much better). Anyway, when I opened them up, there was no inductor, but what I thought was a fuse. After reading the forums I found out that it actually is a fuse (for the tweeters) and a lamp that acts like an inductor when it heats up. The back firing tweeter is crossed over to be more of a midrange. Very cheaply made. But I can change the caps, so I will. Then I have a pair of Bic 62's, so I took that one apart too. Just to compare the build to the others. It was better than the other two, the Bose being the worse. Finally, I also have a pair of Infinity Beta 20's. I took a look inside too.That one has the best quality of any of them. They used 14 AWG throughout (the Bic 16, Insignia 18, the Bose 20). It actually had the board mounted on stand offs, the others were glued down, the Bose didn't even have a board, they were mounted to the drivers with wires running between the components instead of a circuit board. The Bose I had (series 1) did have a board. They really cheapened them up. The Infinity's were made in Mexico, the rest in China. I don't mean to be long winded, but I though it was interesting to see the various methods manufacterurers use.
So I decided , to buy caps for all of them.I ordered them yesterday. I see what you mean, it can get expensive. But I did pretty much what you did.I ordered mostly Jantzen Standard, which will be used on all of them. The Infinity called for a 12 uf, which only the more expensive line had, so to keep costs down I 'll use a Jantzen Standard 10uf, in parallel with a Solen 2uf. I did the same thing with the Bose, it called for a 4uf, so I'll use a Jantzen Standard 3.9uf with a Audio Cap .1uf. I ordered them all yesterday, It wasn't too bad, ended up being $68, + $8.88 shipping $76.88 total. I do have the tools, and skill, to do it, ( I was an electronic "fabricator" for over 30 years, for a large company here, the engineers would designed it, I would build it.) So I'm looking forward to it. Where else could you spend $77 and have hours and hours of entertainment? Thank you TWC, Joe, Kevio, and the rest of the guys, I'm really having a ball with this, and learning something new at the same time.

[Worf101]

As a person who's NEVER messed with the electronic guts of a speaker this is one fascinating thread. Thanks all.

Da Worfster

[Kevio]

I have some capacitors on the way too. I was just going to put them in series on the outside of my B&W DM302's as a high pass to keep them from trying to do the subwoofer's work. For the 100 Hz corner I'm looking for, a large (200 uf) capacitor is required. I don't really want signals for my tweeter to have to run through that so I have a choice to bypass it with a smaller cap or open the speaker and put the new cap in series with the woofer only. I'll probably give both a listen. I'll let you all know what I hear.

[luvtolisten]

I have some capacitors on the way too. I was just going to put them in series on the outside of my B&W DM302's as a high pass to keep them from trying to do the subwoofer's work. For the 100 Hz corner I'm looking for, a large (200 uf) capacitor is required. I don't really want signals for my tweeter to have to run through that so I have a choice to bypass it with a smaller cap or open the speaker and put the new cap in series with the woofer only. I'll probably give both a listen. I'll let you all know what I hear.

I would be very interested how it turns out. I'm thinking of buying an used integrated amp for a 2.1 system. The amp has no bass management. I would have to use a pre-out. The sub has a crossover, which I'll probably set at 80hz. I was wondering if I could do the same as you, only with my speakers, add a cap, as well? Maybe clean up the lower end of my speakers?

[JoeE SP9]

Most crossovers on plate amps have a high pass and a low pass section. In other words you probably don't need to add a capacitor to the input for your mains because the high pass portion of the plate amps crossover has already taken care of that. Of course there may be a very few plate amps that just pass a full range signal to the mains. The literature that came with the sub woofer should tell you.
You should use the line in inputs on the plate amp. The line outs should be connected to the power amp that drives your main speakers.

[luvtolisten]

Yes, Joe, you are correct, but in my case, my sub ( Energy ESW 8) has a high pass input, but no output for the speakers.

[JoeE SP9]

You might be better of with an electronic crossover. Passive crossovers and their parts are just not good for sound. Adding more passive parts is not a good thing. The reason for swapping crossover parts with higher quality ones is to minimize the effect they have on sound.
Behringer crossovers are inexpensive and well reviewed. Had I known of them when I purchased my 2 Paradigm's I would have bought Behringers instead.

[luvtolisten]

Thanks Joe, I did look up the Behringer crossover, it's about $84 with shipping. (Not bad)But it's not a high priority with me right now. I'm not sure if I'm getting the integrated amp yet.

[Kevio]

You might be better of with an electronic crossover. Passive crossovers and their parts are just not good for sound. Adding more passive parts is not a good thing. The reason for swapping crossover parts with higher quality ones is to minimize the effect they have on sound.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there's a whole "straight wire" audiophile crowd who think badly of unnecessary active electronics.

I think I would probably be better off with an electronic crossover but if I can put out $5 and a bit of stimulating experimentation to get better sound, I'm there.

Luv, I have the same subwoofer so I presume this will be quite relevant for you. What are you using for main speakers. What crossover frequency setting are you currently using on the sub?

[luvtolisten]

Luv, I have the same subwoofer so I presume this will be quite relevant for you. What are you using for main speakers. What crossover frequency setting are you currently using on the sub?

Right now I am sharing a NAD T754 between HT (5.1) (speaker 'A") and the speaker "B" is strictly for 2.1. I have 4 sets of speakers I switch in and out, just because each has their strengths and weakness. And it's fun to hear something different. The speakers I switch between are, Wharfedale EVO 10's, Paradigm Titians, AV123 XL's, Infinity Beta 20's, and sometimes the Bic 62's. I use the bass management on the NAD, I have it set at 80hz. All the speakers specs run down to 55-65 Hz (at least that's what the specs say)
I did try without the bass management, and if I remember correctly, I had it set lower, maybe around 65 or 70 hz.What do you have your sub set at?

I saw an integrated amp (Cambridge Audio 640A V2) that was 2 months old, for $300.
I was thinking of getting it, again to hear something a little different than the NAD, and to eliminate the log run of speakers wires to another area.

[hermanv]

Thanks Joe, I did look up the Behringer crossover, it's about $84 with shipping. (Not bad)But it's not a high priority with me right now. I'm not sure if I'm getting the integrated amp yet.

Madisound http://www.madisound.com/ offers a custom crossover design service for near this price, they will need either driver part numbers or Theille/Small driver parameters. You can set up a test to derive the Theille/Small parameters or get them from a driver data sheet. Madisound will also want to know cabinet volume.

Parts connection wil also sell you a crossover PCB, you supply parts (and values).

There is nothing wrong with active crossovers, but they also have limitations. Since drivers rarely follow a simple network roll off or phase characteristic a "universal" active crossover will never match the drivers exactly. With proper tools and equipment a passive design could end up a better match.

[Kevio]

Right now I am sharing a NAD T754 between HT (5.1) (speaker 'A") and the speaker "B" is strictly for 2.1. I have 4 sets of speakers I switch in and out, just because each has their strengths and weakness. And it's fun to hear something different. The speakers I switch between are, Wharfedale EVO 10's, Paradigm Titians, AV123 XL's, Infinity Beta 20's, and sometimes the Bic 62's. I use the bass management on the NAD, I have it set at 80hz. All the speakers specs run down to 55-65 Hz (at least that's what the specs say)
I did try without the bass management, and if I remember correctly, I had it set lower, maybe around 65 or 70 hz.What do you have your sub set at?

With all those options, I'd think you'd want to have a electronic crossover so that you can quickly tweak it in for each type of speaker.

My sub crossover is set to its highest (140 Hz I think) with level turned way down. Surprised me that that appears to give me the most even LF response. I went back and reevaluated a couple times including twiddling with the phase switch. I haven't done any science or anything but with other settings, bass lines were ducking in and out as they went up and down the scale.

I'm guessing there's some weird phase response curve at the low end of these little B&W's. That's why I want to HP them. Spec says they're good to 65 Hz but also says distortion is <1% only down to 100 Hz. I'm thinking there's pure crap from 100 Hz on down.

[JoeE SP9]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there's a whole "straight wire" audiophile crowd who think badly of unnecessary active electronics.

I think I would probably be better off with an electronic crossover but if I can put out $5 and a bit of stimulating experimentation to get better sound, I'm there.

You are correct. However passive crossovers have a much greater and worse effect than any electronic one. With the extremely high prices of some caps a Behringer or something comparable is not unreasonable.

Most ESL owners talk about seamless response. This is because there are no passive crossovers in ESL's. Our compliant/problem comes from the different radiation patterns of sub woofers and ESL panels. This is not a crossover related problem.

Yes, I'm in the "straight wire" camp. A fanatic I'm not. As my gear and room got better my need and desire for sound altering things like tone controls and equalizers lessened. I'd like to point out that correcting room problems will give more bang for the buck than almost any thing else.

[twc644]

Hi Luvtolisten,
Hey man,sorry I told you wrong about the Kimbers being polar.Someone told me that on another website and I took his word as oath.My mistake-my fault---i'm sorry ! I used 4 of the Kimbers to parallel some electrolytics in my Adcom preamp when I was re-capping it. I made sure the black leads were tied to the negative leg of each electrolytic cap.

I will say the Z-Superior are in a class by themselves. When I can afford more I will purchase them.I just finished recapping about 3/4 of my yamaha integrated amp.Whew,glad I finally got all of the power supply and most of the preamp caps replaced.

I think once you get all those caps installed you'll hear a nice difference. I still have one pair to do if the Jantzens will ever arrive. Keep the soldering iron hot and dont burn yourself bud lol !

[luvtolisten]

With all those options, I'd think you'd want to have a electronic crossover so that you can quickly tweak it in for each type of speaker.

My sub crossover is set to its highest (140 Hz I think) with level turned way down. Surprised me that that appears to give me the most even LF response. I went back and reevaluated a couple times including twiddling with the phase switch. I haven't done any science or anything but with other settings, bass lines were ducking in and out as they went up and down the scale.

I'm guessing there's some weird phase response curve at the low end of these little B&W's. That's why I want to HP them. Spec says they're good to 65 Hz but also says distortion is <1% only down to 100 Hz. I'm thinking there's pure crap from 100 Hz on down.

You're right, if I did get the intergrated amp I would go that way. My first choice would be the Outlaw 2150, (because of the bass management). I found out too late they had it on sale for $499, instead of the usual $699,the sale ended 4/20. I saw the Cambrige for $300,used, which is a good price.That with the Behringer, which would give me more flexibility, with bass management,and still would be under $400. I don't care about the tuner, where I live, the reception is terrible, a lot of interference.

You're probably right about the bass setting too, (I really didn't spend much time using the sub without using the bass management of the reciever). It makes sense what you are saying, the 8 inch driver of the sub probably can handle the higher frequecies better than the 6.5 drivers(in my case anyway) can handle the lower frequencies. I think it's better to have a overlap in the frequency even if it's not pristine, rather than to have a hole in it. I agree with you too, that low frequency spec on most speakers can be taken with a grain of salt, without a distortion number to go with it. There may be bass there, but how tight is it?

[luvtolisten]

Hi Luvtolisten,
Hey man,sorry I told you wrong about the Kimbers being polar.Someone told me that on another website and I took his word as oath.My mistake-my fault---i'm sorry ! I used 4 of the Kimbers to parallel some electrolytics in my Adcom preamp when I was re-capping it. I made sure the black leads were tied to the negative leg of each electrolytic cap.

I will say the Z-Superior are in a class by themselves. When I can afford more I will purchase them.I just finished recapping about 3/4 of my yamaha integrated amp.Whew,glad I finally got all of the power supply and most of the preamp caps replaced.

I think once you get all those caps installed you'll hear a nice difference. I still have one pair to do if the Jantzens will ever arrive. Keep the soldering iron hot and dont burn yourself bud lol !

No apology necessary, Kimber probably does make a polarized cap as well, better to be safe than sorry. I have put caps in backwards before, it's not a good thing! How long would guess the burn in time would be for the new caps? Are the Jantzen's you're waitng for Standard's 2.2uf? I needed some, but they were backordered. They suggested a substitute, a Dayton . It's made of the same material as the Jantzen, but has a tighter tolerance, I ended up ordering it in place of the Jantzen Standard.

How much of an improvement are the Jantzen Z Superior vs. the Jantzen Standards in a crossover? Those rascals can get to be pretty expensive! If there is a big difference sound wise, got any idea what point would you start using them as compared to the speaker price? Would they be worth putting in a speaker say below $400/pair?

Now you've got me thinking, I have a pair of Wharfedales I really like. All the parts are made by Wharfedale (or so they say) but assembled in China. I'll have to take a peek inside, at the caps. If they are cheapo's this may be a good candidate for the Jantzen Z's.
Thanks again for you guidance and help. It's been a pleasure.
PS I won't burn myself, but I can't make any promises about anything else!

[twc644]

No apology necessary, Kimber probably does make a polarized cap as well, better to be safe than sorry. I have put caps in backwards before, it's not a good thing! How long would guess the burn in time would be for the new caps? Are the Jantzen's you're waitng for Standard's 2.2uf? I needed some, but they were backordered. They suggested a substitute, a Dayton . It's made of the same material as the Jantzen, but has a tighter tolerance, I ended up ordering it in place of the Jantzen Standard.

How much of an improvement are the Jantzen Z Superior vs. the Jantzen Standards in a crossover? Those rascals can get to be pretty expensive! If there is a big difference sound wise, got any idea what point would you start using them as compared to the speaker price? Would they be worth putting in a speaker say below $400/pair?

Now you've got me thinking, I have a pair of Wharfedales I really like. All the parts are made by Wharfedale (or so they say) but assembled in China. I'll have to take a peek inside, at the caps. If they are cheapo's this may be a good candidate for the Jantzen Z's.
Thanks again for you guidance and help. It's been a pleasure.
PS I won't burn myself, but I can't make any promises about anything else!

The Z-Superior has an edge over the Z-Standards but not a lot.If Parts E. was out of the Z-Superior I would have got the Audio Theta PPT's. Those are nice capacitors also as I've used some recently.

The Z-Standards are a slight step better than Solens without the harshness.I like them immensly. Boy, you do have a collection of speakers. I remember when Ed Frias offered to upgrade the crossovers for those some years back.Those that had that done raved about them. He did more than swap out parts-he changed certain things in the crossovers.Look him up sometime if interested. He offers his own line of speakers that everbody raves about. I dont know if he still offers to do this as it's been at least 4-5 years since I've read about it.

[twc644]

I'm curious about your Insignia's....keep me informed when you change out the caps.Give the caps a good 50 hours to break in okay.

[luvtolisten]

Hi TWC,
I have heard of Ed Frias. From what I hear you had to send back not just the crossovers, but the entire speaker. The last I heard or his most recent email that I know of was:
efespeakers@commspeed.net, but when I tried sending it, it bounced back. He may not be doing it anymore, I haven't heard his name recently. He was on this forum a while back, like you say 3 or 4 years ago.
Yes, I'll let you know how it goes with the Insignia's. They are other tweaks you can do I found on a diy website, to the cabinet, and a new crossover ( but they don't tell you the parts, they want to sell you a kit), but I'll try the caps first.

[twc644]

Hi TWC,
I have heard of Ed Frias. From what I hear you had to send back not just the crossovers, but the entire speaker. The last I heard or his most recent email that I know of was:
efespeakers@commspeed.net, but when I tried sending it, it bounced back. He may not be doing it anymore, I haven't heard his name recently. He was on this forum a while back, like you say 3 or 4 years ago.
Yes, I'll let you know how it goes with the Insignia's. They are other tweaks you can do I found on a diy website, to the cabinet, and a new crossover ( but they don't tell you the parts, they want to sell you a kit), but I'll try the caps first.

Thanx,I'll be looking forward to your opinion with the new caps and sound. I hope you'll be pleased.At first your speakers may sound a little bright. The sound will smooth out some.Remember,the bass will be tighter and faster sounding--not sloppy bass.So,if they sound a little bass shy this is why ok.


I had a dummy attack.I failed to mention your BIC speakers.This was what i meant regarding Ed Frias and the crossovers.I wonder if the $95-$100 dollar upgrade from GR-Research is worth it for the Insignias ?

[luvtolisten]

Thanx,I'll be looking forward to your opinion with the new caps and sound. I hope you'll be pleased.At first your speakers may sound a little bright. The sound will smooth out some.Remember,the bass will be tighter and faster sounding--not sloppy bass.So,if they sound a little bass shy this is why ok.


I had a dummy attack.I failed to mention your BIC speakers.This was what i meant regarding Ed Frias and the crossovers.I wonder if the $95-$100 dollar upgrade from GR-Research is worth it for the Insignias ?

Thanks for the info, those speakers could be a little brighter, I tweak the treble now about 2db. I'm looking forward to hearing them, I'm hoping to get the caps sometime next week.

I have checked out GR-Research, I may do that too, not in the near future, but somewhere down the road. I'll see how the caps do, it may "inspire" me to do the upgrade sooner.

Last night I read a thread about Ed Frias, that you can just send him the crossovers, and he'll modify them for $45. That thread was about 4 years ago. But he was on this forum just last year. I would like to sent him the crossover's since all the feedback has been great. But he seems to have vanished.

[Kevio]

Unpolarized 200 uf electrolytic capacitors arrived and I've wired them in series external to the speakers. Tweaked things up a bit.

What I'm hearing is more definition in bass. Specifically, I believe I can better hear other things going on in the program when big fat bass notes or drums are also being played.

Because it has less help from the mains. The sub is turned up a little higher than it was. I think that's helping me get a little more very low frequency extension.

I tried moving the crossover frequency on the sub a bit higher but encountered the same uneven bass response with bass notes playing peekaboo.

When I first fired things up, I immediately noticed something had changed in the upper midrange and treble. I've listened for an hour and a half now and I'm no longer hearing that. Some might say I've broken in the capacitors. It's also possible I've just become accustom to and compensated for the new sound.

I'll open the speakers in a few days and move the capacitors to the inside so the tweeters bypass them.

[twc644]

Well,
I just got in my order of the Jantzen Z-Standards(damn I wish my bank acct. allowed me the Z-Superior).Installed them in my brand new Polk Monitor 40's I got last Monday from Newegg-$150.00 free shipping ! Man,these speakers sound like a $900+ pair.

I really like Jantzen caps.These speakers have much cleaner bass...authoritive mind you ! The mids are little forward which I like and the treble is much cleaner.Wont be selling my hot rodded Polks anytime soon that I can gurantee.

I'm enjoying my early punk,Jazz,70's rock,and new wave more and more.Aint nothing like good sound for good tunes.I brought someone over to my apartment to hear my system.I made sure he understood it's not high end stuff.He's ready to buy all used equipment on E-Bay and a whole bunch of Elna Silmic II's and Jantzen capacitors for me to install lol !

I've loved Rock 'n Roll since 1964 when i was born.It's in my blood. Having a system to extract more detail than the norm from the somewhat rare good recordings makes music I've listened too thousands of times all the more enjoyable.

[E-Stat]

What I'm hearing is more definition in bass. Specifically, I believe I can better hear other things going on in the program when big fat bass notes or drums are also being played...Because it has less help from the mains. The sub is turned up a little higher than it was. I think that's helping me get a little more very low frequency extension.

That's been my experience as well.

I tried moving the crossover frequency on the sub a bit higher but encountered the same uneven bass response with bass notes playing peekaboo.

The cause is most likely your room. I put an inexpensive Behringer EQ on the subs and was able to remove a nasty peak and compensate for a corresponding null.

rw

[luvtolisten]

I'll open the speakers in a few days and move the capacitors to the inside so the tweeters bypass them.

Kevio, I'd be very interested to hear your results and thoughts after a few days, I did buy that amp today. Lots of peannut butter sandwiches for me the next month.