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Busted, another nail in the coffin for 'high-end' audio..
Good work from Audioholics via The Consumerist:
http://consumerist.com/2010/01/compa...ts-caught.html
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...icon-outside-1
Great gotcha journalism from Audioholics. Maybe it will open the door to more thorough investigation from other audio reviewers. And not necessarily the blatant rip-offs. I'm also referring the the insanely subjective reviews found in magazines such as Stereophile.
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Not really all that earth shattering, but Lexicon is going to get their butts kicked in the war of public sentiment for awhile. They're hardly the only ones rebadging gear, no are they the only ones selling gear for crazy mark-ups.
I still like some of their gear though.
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Wonder if there'll be any fallout to Oppo? They could be losing a significant customer here - but then again, maybe they'll just pick up Lexicon customers at the retail rate instead of the wholesale Lexicon rate?
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How could Lexicon be so stupid as to think this wouldn't be found out (if that's what they were thinking)? Come on, the whole chassis is in there!
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I just finished reading. Pretty good article
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Check out this link to Red Rose Music amps and notice the close resemblance to Dussun amps at a much lower retail.
http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml
Red Rose Passion
The Passion offers twice the power and even more refined sonic quality. Housed in a more traditional 19" chassis, Passion is a very elegant, simple component that makes you want to listen to music. Although compact, Passion is heavy and solidly built to last for decades of musical enjoyment. Passion features all-discrete low noise circuitry throughout, and has a headphone jack on the front panel for private listening or monitoring.
Only 4" tall and 13" deep, the Passion is a very compact 19" rack mount unit which drives virtually any quality speaker with ease. On/off, five inputs and a volume control are provided.
The Passion is extremely affordable, yet offers tremendous power reserves for driving high performance speaker systems. Sonically, the Passion is the favorite of many listeners, combining warmth and delicacy with great body, authority, speed, and clarity.
The Passion is a very elegant package that is at home in any setting. The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.
The Red Rose Passion 100W integrated amplifier costs $3,000.
Now here is a picture of the Dussun DS99 that retails for around $500-$600 before the updated version came out.
http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
Check out this link to Red Rose Music amps and notice the close resemblance to Dussun amps at a much lower retail.
http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml
Red Rose Passion
The Passion offers twice the power and even more refined sonic quality. Housed in a more traditional 19" chassis, Passion is a very elegant, simple component that makes you want to listen to music. Although compact, Passion is heavy and solidly built to last for decades of musical enjoyment. Passion features all-discrete low noise circuitry throughout, and has a headphone jack on the front panel for private listening or monitoring.
Only 4" tall and 13" deep, the Passion is a very compact 19" rack mount unit which drives virtually any quality speaker with ease. On/off, five inputs and a volume control are provided.
The Passion is extremely affordable, yet offers tremendous power reserves for driving high performance speaker systems. Sonically, the Passion is the favorite of many listeners, combining warmth and delicacy with great body, authority, speed, and clarity.
The Passion is a very elegant package that is at home in any setting. The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.
The Red Rose Passion 100W integrated amplifier costs $3,000.
Now here is a picture of the Dussun DS99 that retails for around $500-$600 before the updated version came out.
http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm
Neat. There are companies that exist as manufacturers suppliers to name brand companies. These days everyone is using someone else's components in their equipment to some extent. Most aren't quite as obvious about is as Lexicon appears to be here.
Mind you, what Lexicon has done IMO is not quite as bad as companies deliberately just changing the board layout or color, or add a few tertiary features that are largely irrelevant just to try and hide the fact it is the same piece of gear for all intents and purposes. That's blatant deception on top of gouging IMO.
This isn't unique to the a/v industry either.
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This does not come as a surprise to me. For years many high end manufacturers have been pulling the wool over consumers eyes by using cheap components in their equipment and charging hundreds if not thousands more because they have the name to back it up.
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Tak about taking the concept of diminishing returns to a whole new level...
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I personally hope it drives Lexicon out of business and the same for any company who does this. Taking a piece and modding it to be your own offering is one thing but what Lexicon did is a crime. This type of business practice shouldn't be taken lightly by any of you. "Nail in the coffen" may be correct, people see this and it is a black eye for higher end audio. A trust has been broken. Bring on the Chinese gear. I guess it's also a real lesson for us who buy to definitely rely on ourselves as to if we hear or see any improvement. I'ts buyer beware but....... that's just extreme.
I remember back when Yamaha making Carver's tape decks and things like that went on, and you hear that manufacturers build to the brand's specs. Even if Carver had a straight yamaha with Carver's name it isn't as extreme as what Lexicon done. A $100.00 is one thing but $3k is another. Sure manufacturer's gear may share some parts when only a number of makers are available but you don't expect the end product to be the same.
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How would you feel if you had bought one of these? I'm not talking to the ones who did, under the Oppo badge I should say, but if you paid $3.5K. It scares me to think how mad I'd be.
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I think this scam should be brought to light by the mainstream audio rags. They should expose them for the frauds they are, irregardless of their advertising budgets.
I took an extended break from audiophile land, seems like deceipt and the snake oil products are still alive and well. Too bad too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
How would you feel if you had bought one of these? I'm not talking to the ones who did, under the Oppo badge I should say, but if you paid $3.5K. It scares me to think how mad I'd be.
Yeah, the more I think of it...If I found out my Gaggia was a rebadged Hamilton Beach I'd be pretty pissed off.
I give credit to Audioholics too. It takes balls to come out and say this - they risk being cut off from samples. Not just from Lexicon and Oppo, but other companies with something to hide. It's a bit gutsy.
And THX is getting exposed a bit in this as well.
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Yeah I agree, kudos to Audioholics, I haven't read them before, but I will now. THey didn't try to sugar coat this at all, which gives them more credibility. I probably wouldn't have purchased a Lexicon product before, but now I never will.
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Is Lexicon still under the same umbrella with Levinson and all the other Harmon products?
I can't say how true this is but I don't see why this person would lie, I was speaking to a manager of a high end shop who dabbled with Levinson and decided not to go with them because they had defective products come in for eval.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Is Lexicon still under the same umbrella with Levinson and all the other Harmon products?
I can't say how true this is but I don't see why this person would lie, I was speaking to a manager of a high end shop who dabbled with Levinson and decided not to go with them because they had defective products come in for eval.
Sadly, Lexicon (and Levinson) is still part of the Harman group...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I personally hope it drives Lexicon out of business and the same for any company who does this. Taking a piece and modding it to be your own offering is one thing but what Lexicon did is a crime. This type of business practice shouldn't be taken lightly by any of you. "Nail in the coffen" may be correct, people see this and it is a black eye for higher end audio. A trust has been broken. Bring on the Chinese gear. I guess it's also a real lesson for us who buy to definitely rely on ourselves as to if we hear or see any improvement. I'ts buyer beware but....... that's just extreme.
I remember back when Yamaha making Carver's tape decks and things like that went on, and you hear that manufacturers build to the brand's specs. Even if Carver had a straight yamaha with Carver's name it isn't as extreme as what Lexicon done. A $100.00 is one thing but $3k is another. Sure manufacturer's gear may share some parts when only a number of makers are available but you don't expect the end product to be the same.
It really is a disgraceful move by Lexicon.... The standard practice in High End is to upgrade to more expensive parts (even if you use the same layout)... Whether those more expensive parts makes an improvement in performance is often up to debate... But to use the exact same parts is just a straight up scam...
If they had at least replaced all the internal wiring with Nordost Valhala (or something suitably expensive) then they would have some basis for the significant jump in price, even if Audioholics tested it and found that it gave no significant performance improvements over the standard OPPO....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbagump
Good thread....
Though I think you need to keep in mind that not all review mags/sites have the technical expertise as Audioholics...
Stereophile focuses on Subjective and Measurements.... Not opening up chassis's and comparing to other brands...
And they do identify when products are poor value for money based on measurements (and subjective reviews)... For example: In this recent review of the Bel Canto USB Link:
http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcom...er/index1.html
John Atkinson makes this comparison:
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Both the M-Audio and E-Mu devices provide the same basic conversion as the Bel Canto, with the added complication of the user having to install a driver program, but at significantly lower cost. When I played music CDs through them and the Benchmark DAC1, I could hear no appreciable differences among the three USB-S/PDIF converters. With the Assemblage DAC-1, the Bel Canto Link gave a sound that was cleaner than the E-Mu's but, to my surprise, was not appreciably different from the cheap M-Audio's, even with high-sample-rate files.
And concludes with this:
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Provided it is used with a D/A processor that offers effective jitter rejection, the USB Link 24/96 does what Bel Canto promises it will do, and can be recommended. However, I can't pretend that the $495 USB Link doesn't come under strong competition from M-Audio's $100 Transit USB. Both handle sample rates up to 96kHz, and for a Mac user like me, the potential advantage of the Bel Canto of not having to manually set playback sample rate with Windows is moot. But with its aluminum enclosure, the made-in-America Bel Canto does feel like a high-end product; with the Chinese-made M-Audio, plastic is as plastic does.
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Unfortunately this action hurts the entire high end industry where most companies do in fact build or create or original products, or heavily modify parts. We know that there are very few companies making cd readers, transports etc but usually companies will modify them rather heavily. And they will sound and measure differently. For instance Sim Audio, Bryston BCD-1 and Audio Note's one box player all use the same Philips L1210 transport mechanism but then all three tell you that. Moreover, none of them sound the alike and under the chassis - you can see that all three have considerably different parts and layouts. It doesn't make sense to re-invent the wheel. Lexicon is a whole other matter.
Plenty of companies though have rebadged Chinese gear from Shengya, Jungson etc under their own label - Vincent for example. But at least Vincent's prices are pretty much the same as the Chinese named counterparts and there isn't a direct model to compete with. And they don't hide from the fact.
I had a Pioneer laserdisc player - they rebadged the identical player and put a piano black glossy front on it and rosewood side panels under the "Elite" name badge. My machine was $650 - the Elite was $1200. There was a Hitachi that was the exact same machine in gray instead of black for $500 or something. The machine was exactly the same. Pioneer also rebranded their receivers under the "Sears" logo for a long time - oddly the Sears branded models cost more.
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This does not surprise me either that some of these "high end" companies are doing this kind of crap. That is why when I make purchases of higher end gear I do a bunch of research before I spend my money because crooks out there like lexicon are trying to sell you a Civic for the price of a Lexus. Nothing wrong with a civic they are great cars but paying 5 times the price for it is damn ridiculous and any car company doing it would be called crooks and they would probably be shut down for it but these high end companies are getting away with it like its a normal every day practice and is ok to do. ITS NOT OK and it pisses me off to be honest and makes me even more gun shy at buying higher end components. I know there is great stuff out there and companies that make high end components worth the money but this kind of crap is not going to set well with people especially ones that are just starting to get into this hobby as it will scare them off of going into the higher end stuff. This kind of stuff just makes me sick and I dought I will ever take Lexicon seriously ever again.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harley .guy07
This does not surprise me either that some of these "high end" companies are doing this kind of crap. That is why when I make purchases of higher end gear I do a bunch of research before I spend my money because crooks out there like lexicon are trying to sell you a Civic for the price of a Lexus. Nothing wrong with a civic they are great cars but paying 5 times the price for it is damn ridiculous and any car company doing it would be called crooks and they would probably be shut down for it but these high end companies are getting away with it like its a normal every day practice and is ok to do. ITS NOT OK and it pisses me off to be honest and makes me even more gun shy at buying higher end components. I know there is great stuff out there and companies that make high end components worth the money but this kind of crap is not going to set well with people especially ones that are just starting to get into this hobby as it will scare them off of going into the higher end stuff. This kind of stuff just makes me sick and I dought I will ever take Lexicon seriously ever again.
Yep, that's the exact problem... it only serves to make high end into more of a joke to the masses...
Nothing wrong with Lexicon using the basics from OPPO (just about all tech companies buy over the counter parts), but some SUBSTANTIAL amount of tweaking and new parts is expected to justify the price difference...
The other option was for them to charge just a little more (for the prettier Lexicon chassis) and just make it clear that it is an OPPO designed to match other Lexicon components (for Lexicon owners who want a Blu-Ray Player that matches the aesthetics of their gear)...
But $3.5K for a $0.5K product is a scam....
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Is this really a surprise?
Almost every product has some sort of this rebadging or marketing scam (too harsh a word??) similar to what happened here.
My sister-in-law who works as a consultant to "high-end" cosmetic businesses told me a little marketing story. A company produces a jar of cold cream that costs them about $30 to produce and its quality is top notch but it is in the end only cold cream and the difference between it and some of its lower cost competitors is minimal.
Now this company could put a $45-$60 price tag on it sell it everywhere and make alot of money. However this company makes alot of cosmetic products and is known as a "high-end" company that sells its products in only the most exclusive stores in the world. If they sold their product at a lower price regular retailers would pick it up and the company's reputation would actual suffer despite the quality of its product. So what does the company do? They price the $30 jar of cold cream at around $700 sell it in only "high-end" stores where their customers now routinely fork over their money solely based on the reputation of the company.
My point is not that just because you pay alot for something that you are getting ripped off. My point is that you need to become educated enough in your purchases to know if the money spent is really going into the quality of the product or only in the name/marketing of the product. Unfortunately it sounds easier than it is.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekid
Is this really a surprise?
Almost every product has some sort of this rebadging or marketing scam (too harsh a word??) similar to what happened here.
My sister-in-law who works as a consultant to "high-end" cosmetic businesses told me a little marketing story. A company produces a jar of cold cream that costs them about $30 to produce and its quality is top notch but it is in the end only cold cream and the difference between it and some of its lower cost competitors is minimal.
Now this company could put a $45-$60 price tag on it sell it everywhere and make alot of money. However this company makes alot of cosmetic products and is known as a "high-end" company that sells its products in only the most exclusive stores in the world. If they sold their product at a lower price regular retailers would pick it up and the company's reputation would actual suffer despite the quality of its product. So what does the company do? They price the $30 jar of cold cream at around $700 sell it in only "high-end" stores where their customers now routinely fork over their money solely based on the reputation of the company.
My point is not that just because you pay alot for something that you are getting ripped off. My point is that you need to become educated enough in your purchases to know if the money spent is really going into the quality of the product or only in the name/marketing of the product. Unfortunately it sounds easier than it is.
Agreed... that has always been the case with clothes and cosmetics... The same factory, in some poor country, that produces expensive name brand clothes will also produce 'no-name' clothes (that are exactly the same clothes without the tag, but sell for a fraction of the price)...
But I think the real shock here is because Lexicon is a well established brand and part of a major group... so it really has no excuse for this... Some startup "High-End" brand would be expected to be involved in this type of scandal.....
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The clothing industry is the same way. Same with shoes. I worked in a clothing factory when I was 18 (before it moved overseas) and after a large production run for a major label the overrun stuff would get the discount labels, for significantly cheaper.
I've known that a lot of "high-end" electronics were like this and its not a recent developement either. And I'll bet that its not just the high-end brands that wished this info never saw the light of day. I'm so glad I don't have to grip over this.
Its enough to make one rethink those magnetic bracelets too.
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Another angle on this issue ... I recently heard Conrad Johnson criticized for have a short product range: scarcely a dozen products and all amps and preamps. Another example is Pass Labs. There is no doubt these company make product that is great and entirely their own. What's my point?
I get suspicious when I see a company making a "full range" or products: amps, players, DACs, speakers, phono equipment, speakers. Can a small or medium-sized company be good at all these things? Can they do the research and product development for all these things? Likely not. Almost inevidably they have to buy not just technology but actual product for other companies. And if they have a "high-end" image and, more particularly, a high-end distribution channel, they have to have high markup to make their profits. So now we're talking about the likes of Lexicon; (the fact that they might be owned by Harmon International doesn't make them a big company).
The more integrated a technology, the more suspicious I get about the value for high-price product. E.g. DACs >$1500 that use only off-the-shelf Texas Instruments LSI chips, (or Wolfson for that matter). Using these chips, DAC design and construction is relatively simple, and even with high quality peripheral components, it only costs so much to built a unit apart from milled face plates and such cosmetic extras. (DACs like those from dCS and EMM Labs are rather different because they use a lot of discrete components.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Another angle on this issue ... I recently heard Conrad Johnson criticized for have a short product range: scarcely a dozen products and all amps and preamps. Another example is Pass Labs. There is no doubt these company make product that is great and entirely their own. What's my point?
I get suspicious when I see a company making a "full range" or products: amps, players, DACs, speakers, phono equipment, speakers. Can a small or medium-sized company be good at all these things? Can they do the research and product development for all these things? Likely not. Almost inevidably they have to buy not just technology but actual product for other companies. And if they have a "high-end" image and, more particularly, a high-end distribution channel, they have to have high markup to make their profits. So now we're talking about the likes of Lexicon; (the fact that they might be owned by Harmon International doesn't make them a big company).
The more integrated a technology, the more suspicious I get about the value for high-price product. E.g. DACs >$1500 that use only off-the-shelf Texas Instruments LSI chips, (or Wolfson for that matter). Using these chips, DAC design and construction is relatively simple, and even with high quality peripheral components, it only costs so much to built a unit apart from milled face plates and such cosmetic extras. (DACs like those from dCS and EMM Labs are rather different because they use a lot of discrete components.)
I see what you're saying but I don't think it really applies to Lexicon... They only make Preamplifiers/Processors, Power Amps, Receivers (combination of the first two) and Disc Players.... So not a very wide range of products.... So even we ignore their membership in the Harman Group and just regard them as a small company, they don't have a wide enough product range to make them 'suspicious'...
Worse yet, considering how well established Lexicon is in high end (and Pro Audio) most persons would have trusted them to produce a good product...
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I was emailing with a guy I know in the business and regarding what Feanor was saying Classe' will not be coming out with a Blu ray player because they cannot do it themselves and something with an issue integrating of their LCD touch screens. He also said that Harmon is not in good financial condition and there are products not that old in some of their lines, Levinson was particularly mentioned, that Harmon will not repair. There are a couple service shops they refer people to but if they aren't able to help some one could end up with an expensive door stop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
I see what you're saying but I don't think it really applies to Lexicon... They only make Preamplifiers/Processors, Power Amps, Receivers (combination of the first two) and Disc Players.... So not a very wide range of products.... So even we ignore their membership in the Harman Group and just regard them as a small company, they don't have a wide enough product range to make them 'suspicious'...
Worse yet, considering how well established Lexicon is in high end (and Pro Audio) most persons would have trusted them to produce a good product...
We might debate the relative position of Lexicon in the small/specialized to large/wide-range continum. But it seems clear that they are guilty of "rounding out" their range despite that the component isn't one they developed or make.
Lexicon is, from an image and marketing persepective, a (relatively) high-end provider. A typical high-ends strategy is high markup to compensate for lessor sales volume and an expensive distribution channel. (Bear in mind that Oppo sells direct for its MSRP; Lexicon sells through dealers who may allow heavy discounts.) The high-end marque is after a high markup regardless of where they source their product.
When are people going to understand that there is a very loose connection MSRP price on the one hand, and either basic cost of manufacture and/or quality on the other??
But of course I have a lot more respect for Outlaw Audio for offering the Onkyo prepro unit undisguised while they complete the process of developing their own prepro -- which has been a long time coming by now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I was emailing with a guy I know in the business and regarding what Feanor was saying Classe' will not be coming out with a Blu ray player because they cannot do it themselves and something with an issue integrating of their LCD touch screens. He also said that Harmon is not in good financial condition and there are products not that old in some of their lines, Levinson was particularly mentioned, that Harmon will not repair. There are a couple service shops they refer people to but if they aren't able to help some one could end up with an expensive door stop.
Classe has class :biggrin5:
They understand that if they can't do it right themselves, then there's no point in embarrassing themselves with either a sub-standard product or a scam like Lexicon...
As for the Harman group not being in good financial condition, that really is sad... I'm a big fan of their Revel and AKG lines... So I'd hate to see either of those 2 go down with the ship (if the ship goes down)...
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Excellent point, and I had forgotten about the Outlaw issue. In light of things it would seem Outlaw made the right decision and good for them for not rebadging. I wonder though if they did put the Onkyo in an Outlaw case how much cheaper it may have been.
I think most realize there is more mark up on high end audio as there is on any high end product but as some one mentioned you don't expect a Civic when paying for an Accura. Either way it certainly seems to validate the approach of companies like Oppo and Emotiva. I don't see Oppo as the bad guy in this scenario either, they didn't make Lexicon do what they did. I suspect Oppo owners are probably feeling quite justified after hearing this story.
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I didn't realize AKG was under Harmon. You know I bought a pair of their earbuds and thought for the money they were good, I recommended them to a poster and went back to see which model I bought and the current reviews of newer models are not so good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Classe has class :biggrin5:
They understand that if they can't do it right themselves, then there's no point in embarrassing themselves with either a sub-standard product or a scam like Lexicon...
As for the Harman group not being in good financial condition, that really is sad... I'm a big fan of their Revel and AKG lines... So I'd hate to see either of those 2 go down with the ship (if the ship goes down)...
There would be a lot of people lined up to buy Harman assets and continue several brands if it came that, I think. The worry would be whether some holding company bought Revel and started cranking out crap speakers at high prices. I don't think that would happen - some of those brands would have decent business models and could probably do ok with clean balance sheets and tweaking.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
Check out this link to Red Rose Music amps and notice the close resemblance to Dussun amps at a much lower retail.
http://www.redrosemusic.com/passion.shtml
Red Rose Passion
The Passion offers twice the power and even more refined sonic quality. Housed in a more traditional 19" chassis, Passion is a very elegant, simple component that makes you want to listen to music. Although compact, Passion is heavy and solidly built to last for decades of musical enjoyment. Passion features all-discrete low noise circuitry throughout, and has a headphone jack on the front panel for private listening or monitoring.
Only 4" tall and 13" deep, the Passion is a very compact 19" rack mount unit which drives virtually any quality speaker with ease. On/off, five inputs and a volume control are provided.
The Passion is extremely affordable, yet offers tremendous power reserves for driving high performance speaker systems. Sonically, the Passion is the favorite of many listeners, combining warmth and delicacy with great body, authority, speed, and clarity.
The Passion is a very elegant package that is at home in any setting. The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.
The Red Rose Passion 100W integrated amplifier costs $3,000.
Now here is a picture of the Dussun DS99 that retails for around $500-$600 before the updated version came out.
http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/dussun_ds99.htm
JM, I think you're being totally unfair to Red Rose... On their website (the link you provided) they make it clear why the Red Rose costs so much (more than the Dussun):
Quote:
The front panel and volume control, designed by Mark Levinson, is a masterpiece of simplicity and function which is pleasing to the eye and pleasant to the touch.
Who wouldn't want to pay 5 - 6 times the price, to have Mark Levinson design a sexy new faceplate for the product???
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Excellent point, and I had forgotten about the Outlaw issue. In light of things it would seem Outlaw made the right decision and good for them for not rebadging. I wonder though if they did put the Onkyo in an Outlaw case how much cheaper it may have been.
Outlaw clearly did the right thing... So did PS Audio (in a way)... since up until they release their own Perfect Wave music server, they've been pushing the AppleTV as the device to use... They could have just slapped on a PS Audio Faceplate on a AppleTV and charged $1K for it as part of the Trio Line....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I think most realize there is more mark up on high end audio as there is on any high end product but as some one mentioned you don't expect a Civic when paying for an Accura.
Most likely the smaller Acura will be based on the Civic Chassis... But the upgrades will be substantial (better engine, transmission, just about everything)... So there will be no disputing that it is a different and more expensive vehicle... However the markup will be higher and whether those upgrades are worth it is up the consumer to determine...
In Speakers, many times a manufacturer's entry level product will have the same basic design as their top of the line. Compare the Revel Concerta F12 with the Revel Ultima Studio 2:
http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=19
http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=28
Both have the same layout and complement of drivers:
Quote:
A three-way system utilizing two 8-inch woofers, a 5¼-inch midrange and a 1-inch tweeter
But the specs on the Studio 2 are substantially better is as the build quality (and presumably there are substantial changes internally)... Now whether the improvement in sound justifies the difference in price ($1.5K versus $16K) is up the consumer...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Either way it certainly seems to validate the approach of companies like Oppo and Emotiva. I don't see Oppo as the bad guy in this scenario either, they didn't make Lexicon do what they did. I suspect Oppo owners are probably feeling quite justified after hearing this story.
As far as I can tell, Oppo did nothing wrong... There is no reason to assume that Oppo knew that Lexicon would just repackage their product (rather than upgrading it as is the standard practice)... Unless Oppo was also hired as a design consultant for the Lexicon model...
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I've been onto this practice for years with pro mixing equipment. But this is another reason why I won't buy "high end" stuff even though I can easily afford it. I have for years purchased well made stuff, and then had it upgraded to my specifications for mixing and listening. I have never trusted that the big price tags always lead to great sound. As a matter of fact, I have found in some cases it produced a poor product.
THX is a joke, and has been a joke for years. I was surprised that Lexicon got busted with this, but THX has a history of certifying stuff that would not meet their supposedly "secret" standard (it's not a secret to those of us who have been THX certified). Their have been several receivers that have been certified that did not meet their criteria. I am reminded of a THX certified Kenwood receiver that had a power supply that was so small that it would have never been able to meet THX specifications for a 3000 cubic foot room, no way! I know for a fact that THX stopped actually certifying theaters personally (they used to inspect all theaters in person), but allow the theater chain to pay $10,000 per year, per screen for the certification badge even if the theater is not up to snuff. Most theaters now don't even bother with the certification because their own technicians can do the work that THX used to do. THX has pretty much given up the theatrical area, and is focusing now on D-cinema, and digital projectors and video equipment for home consumers. I think the wheel fell off the THX wagon when they decided they were going to certify VHS players back in the 90's, and computer speakers in the late 90's. When you have to dig that low to generate revenue, your certification is basically worthless.
I always laugh when one of our more "uppidity" members here make a comment that my amps are just mid priced Japanese gear. On my signature it may appear to be just that, but when you look under the hood, a different story is told.
You can never judge a book by its cover(or name), and this is a prime example of that.
Oppo should be proud that they produced a Blu ray player so good that Lexicon simply put a new case on it, and charges $2500 more for it. Or should they?
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With the appearance of the 83se and NuForce additions it's apparent that there was places for improvements to be made. Lexicon didn't even try.
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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
With the appearance of the 83se and NuForce additions it's apparent that there was places for improvements to be made. Lexicon didn't even try.
In order to throw all of the great video bells and whistles, and with the knowledge that quite a few of its owner would be going the HDMI route, the analog audio stages (while still good) had to take a hit. The SE and NuForce additions take care of that issue. If Lexicon was smart(er), they would have taken the Oppo with the NuForce additions and rebadged it. At least that would have looked like they were making some improvements. In this case Lexicon AND THX take the hit, and Oppo comes out smelling like a rose. As good as the Oppo is, THX should not have certified it, because it does not meet their specs. I am not referring to the build or quality of the player, I am referring to their particular specs on pre-pros and receivers where the bass management has to crossover at 80hz, with a particular LP and HP slopes designed specifically for their THX approved speakers.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
I've been onto this practice for years with pro mixing equipment. But this is another reason why I won't buy "high end" stuff even though I can easily afford it. I have for years purchased well made stuff, and then had it upgraded to my specifications for mixing and listening. I have never trusted that the big price tags always lead to great sound. As a matter of fact, I have found in some cases it produced a poor product.
I have as well seen several times that my good mid prices gear outperforms some of the multi thousand dollar gear some of my friends have or I have worked with in the past. I believe there are components out there that do have a higher price tag because they have the best parts available and they do outperform all mid priced stuff but that is only in certain cases and I have seen this go completely the opposite direction many times. It's funny to watch this take place and I always root for the underdog since I am a person that believes in more for the money. I put in mind the Odyssey Audio Khardago amplifier, this amp is a killer amp and I have heard it several times over the years and the damn thing to me has sounded better than so many amps in the multi thousand dollar range that it is kind of unbelievable. But Odyssey audio sells it for 750 bucks in stock form and just right under 1000 bucks for the modified version and this thing will make speakers sing like some amps with 10,000 dollar price tags on them. In fact when I do upgrade from my Adcom I will be looking very close at the Khardago. At least the Khardago has a price tag that is affordable and real world and I believe that is one thing that is going to help keep this hobby alive for people just getting into it because the economy is not that great in today's world and I don't think its over yet.
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Originally Posted by harley .guy07
I have as well seen several times that my good mid prices gear outperforms some of the multi thousand dollar gear some of my friends have or I have worked with in the past. I believe there are components out there that do have a higher price tag because they have the best parts available and they do outperform all mid priced stuff but that is only in certain cases and I have seen this go completely the opposite direction many times. It's funny to watch this take place and I always root for the underdog since I am a person that believes in more for the money. I put in mind the Odyssey Audio Khardago amplifier, this amp is a killer amp and I have heard it several times over the years and the damn thing to me has sounded better than so many amps in the multi thousand dollar range that it is kind of unbelievable. But Odyssey audio sells it for 750 bucks in stock form and just right under 1000 bucks for the modified version and this thing will make speakers sing like some amps with 10,000 dollar price tags on them. In fact when I do upgrade from my Adcom I will be looking very close at the Khardago. At least the Khardago has a price tag that is affordable and real world and I believe that is one thing that is going to help keep this hobby alive for people just getting into it because the economy is not that great in today's world and I don't think its over yet.
The Khartago is on my list of potential amps as well... It's pretty much either that or the Naim Nait 5i... both have strong reputations as exceptionally good despite the relatively low prices...
The trick for the budget conscious audiophile is to read as many reviews (and measurements) as possible and then audition keenly... there are so many great products available for reasonable money, that you can easily assemble something that sounds genuinely high-end, just without the high-end price tag... NOTE: that does not mean that there are not still better products available for a lot more money...
Experts like Sir T, can buy good affordable gear and have them altered to spec (which is one of the best ways to ensure you don't get ripped off)... Since I have no such expertise, I instead check out numerous professional and user reviews and keenly audition to get the best value for my money... I also have a policy that gear has to both sound good to me and measure well....
The reason measurement matters to me is because I want to be sure that I'm getting a real improvement for my money and not just a different sound (for an elevated price tag)... For example, some persons might audition a $1K Benchmark DAC1 and decide that they prefer the sound of some high-end company's $3K DAC... However, how do they know that the $3K DAC is really better and not just that it provides a sound they prefer? Further, how do they know that there is not another $1K DAC that measures and sounds like the $3K one?
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