Blind listening comparisons

[tube fan]

Geoffcin, what you and others (e.g., TTT) don't understand is that human hearing is MUCH more sensitive to the thousands of factors involved in music reproduction. Whatever, if YOU cannot rate a given piece of equipment blind, then, you are just buying numbers (meaningless in this case) vs YOUR blind ratings. I have enjoyed dozens of my friends rate $15 wines over their "favorite" (bought just on the high rating by Parker) wines. I doubt YOU would rate your favorite ss amp over many, lower priced tube amps, but only if listened to blind.

[Raj J]

Greetings to all for 2011 and may you have a new year full of promise and desired results!

good on you tube fan!
hey fellow audiophiles and enthusiasts if the guy (or girl...) wants to listen and test blind - then so be it! that's the way he/she wants to evaluate audio gear so let them for crying out loud! afterall it's their dollars not yours, what's all the fuss about?

yes of course we would generally like to have something visually appealing (specially those with the wifey factor...) as well as something sounding good as it looks! but that's us, and so we will buy something that WE feel is a good deal by both parties involved in the transaction and you go home feeling it was a good buy indeed.

ah! but wait till you do a blind test at one of those shows or at a friends place - I'll be dammed if it really sounds better than what you just purchased! I am afraid our tube fan is right ladies and mostly gents out there, we also do buy what is visually appealing or striking; something that excites us and therefore should sound great. we also tend to think just because it looks stunning, built like a rock or with exquisite materials it should sound top-notch! but infact some sound like a load of bollocks! and there are some that do live up to all those good looks indeed. but what the hec, aren't these high-end systems supposed to caress our ears, in which case why bother with the looks? we are all human afterall & supposed to have good hearing... therefore if someone chooses equipment doing blind tests good for them! I hope they are truly happy with their purchase at the end of the day.
enjoying YOUR music on YOUR SYSTEM is what it's all about, and if he/she is enjoying exactly that, then that's about it!
cheers, Raj J

[Ajani]

Geoffcin, what you and others (e.g., TTT) don't understand is that human hearing is MUCH more sensitive to the thousands of factors involved in music reproduction. Whatever, if YOU cannot rate a given piece of equipment blind, then, you are just buying numbers (meaningless in this case) vs YOUR blind ratings. I have enjoyed dozens of my friends rate $15 wines over their "favorite" (bought just on the high rating by Parker) wines. I doubt YOU would rate your favorite ss amp over many, lower priced tube amps, but only if listened to blind.

There are several factors to consider here:

1) Some audiophiles can indeed hear and appreciate differences between cheaper and more expensive gear... They buy expensive gear because it sounds better to them (whether that is always natural or an acquired taste is an interesting question, IMO)

2) Another set of audiophiles only think they can hear differences, but would likely be embarrassed in blind tests...

3) Yet another set buy expensive gear for the same reasons many persons buy a BMW, expensive bottle of wine or a Rolex: to show off their wealth and status...

The problem being that all types exist on audio forums and all 3 will claim that they buy the more expensive gear because it sounds better... When only 1 of the 3 types actually buys it for that reason...

[tube fan]

There are several factors to consider here:

1) Some audiophiles can indeed hear and appreciate differences between cheaper and more expensive gear... They buy expensive gear because it sounds better to them (whether that is always natural or an acquired taste is an interesting question, IMO)

2) Another set of audiophiles only think they can hear differences, but would likely be embarrassed in blind tests...

3) Yet another set buy expensive gear for the same reasons many persons buy a BMW, expensive bottle of wine or a Rolex: to show off their wealth and status...

The problem being that all types exist on audio forums and all 3 will claim that they buy the more expensive gear because it sounds better... When only 1 of the 3 types actually buys it for that reason...

And, thus, another reason for blind listening tests. And even then, the number who fit in class 1 approaches 0 as a limit!

[Ajani]

And, thus, another reason for blind listening tests. And even then, the number who fit in class 1 approaches 0 as a limit!

The audiophiles in Class 1 won't benefit from blind testing, as they will be able to identify the more expensive gear and will select them regardless... Just as many real wine connoisseurs would always select the more expensive wine...

The audiophiles in Class 2 would benefit from blind testing... though of course, they would probably also benefit from regular hearing tests... Something too few of us do regularly enough... It is rather silly (if you really think about it) to drop $30K on a stereo, based on your excellent hearing, if you've not had a hearing test...

The audiophiles in class 3 could care less about blind testing, as audible benefit was not the real reason for their purchases anyway...


IMO, only the posers in class 2 would benefit from blind testing as it might humble them...

What's the aim of blind testing in HiFi? To eliminate sighted bias (so picking the expensive gear because you know it is more expensive)? So take this scenario: An audiophile, who can genuinely hear differences, prefers a Mark Levinson No. 532H (300 Watt) amp in a sighted test over an Emotiva XPA-2 (300 Watt) amp. If he was to then test those 2 amps in a blind test he'd still be able to identify the Levinson. So if he really selected the Levinson based on price bias in the sighted test, he'd do the same in the blind test...

[tube fan]

The audiophiles in Class 1 won't benefit from blind testing, as they will be able to identify the more expensive gear and will select them regardless... Just as many real wine connoisseurs would always select the more expensive wine...

The audiophiles in Class 2 would benefit from blind testing... though of course, they would probably also benefit from regular hearing tests... Something too few of us do regularly enough... It is rather silly (if you really think about it) to drop $30K on a stereo, based on your excellent hearing, if you've not had a hearing test...

The audiophiles in class 3 could care less about blind testing, as audible benefit was not the real reason for their purchases anyway...


IMO, only the posers in class 2 would benefit from blind testing as it might humble them...

What's the aim of blind testing in HiFi? To eliminate sighted bias (so picking the expensive gear because you know it is more expensive)? So take this scenario: An audiophile, who can genuinely hear differences, prefers a Mark Levinson No. 532H (300 Watt) amp in a sighted test over an Emotiva XPA-2 (300 Watt) amp. If he was to then test those 2 amps in a blind test he'd still be able to identify the Levinson. So if he really selected the Levinson based on price bias in the sighted test, he'd do the same in the blind test...

Trust me, if you think "real wine connoisseurs" could consistently (much less ALWAYS) pick out the expensive wine, you are, let's be polite, A TOTAL FOOL!!! If you pick the expensive audio component, great! But don't be so sure sure you would!

[E-Stat]

Trust me, if you think "real wine connoisseurs" could consistently (much less ALWAYS) pick out the expensive wine...

So why would an *expensive* wine taste better anyway? I'm a scotch fancier and the differences between blends, single malts and more expensive cask strength and single cask variations have clear distinctions that easily account for the differences. Similarly, I couldn't care less about an audio component's price - I'm more interested in the topology, quality of parts used and strength of power supply. As another long term Audio Research fan, you can easily see why their current models are better than ones from the 80s and 90s. I trust you are aware of the ARC database site.

rw

[Feanor]

So why would an *expensive* wine taste better anyway? I'm a scotch fancier and the differences between blends, single malts and more expensive cask strength and single cask variations have clear distinctions that easily account for the differences. Similarly, I couldn't care less about an audio component's price - I'm more interested in the topology, quality of parts used and strength of power supply. As another long term Audio Research fan, you can easily see why their current models are better than ones from the 80s and 90s. I trust you are aware of the ARC database site.

rw

You're referring to THIS site which is one of the better vintage sites and most interesting. (Wow -- I see they've got advertising nowadays.)

Speaking of what's on the inside, it brings to mind computers. People have asked me why I like to assemble my own, I tell them I'd rather know thebrands on the inside, than what brand is on the outside.

[Ajani]

So why would an *expensive* wine taste better anyway? I'm a scotch fancier and the differences between blends, single malts and more expensive cask strength and single cask variations have clear distinctions that easily account for the differences.

So essentially you'd be able to identify differences between them whether you could see the label or not.... Whether you prefer the most expensive or not would be a matter or taste...

Similarly, I couldn't care less about an audio component's price - I'm more interested in the topology, quality of parts used and strength of power supply. As another long term Audio Research fan, you can easily see why their current models are better than ones from the 80s and 90s. I trust you are aware of the ARC database site.

rw

Looking at the internals seems a much better judge of quality than price tag....

Just to be difficult (devil's advocate, I suppose): What if you listened to two products and clearly preferred the one with lower quality parts, power supply & topology? Would you still purchase the one with the better internals?

[Ajani]

Trust me, if you think "real wine connoisseurs" could consistently (much less ALWAYS) pick out the expensive wine, you are, let's be polite, A TOTAL FOOL!!! If you pick the expensive audio component, great! But don't be so sure sure you would!

Perhaps my wording is not clear, so let's see if a rephrase helps:

Real wine connoisseurs could consistently identify the more expensive wines... Now whether they always prefer them is another issue...

The point is not that you must prefer the more expensive wine or audio equipment but that you'd be able to identify it...

Now let's take you as an example: Why don't you trust yourself to audition sighted? Do you find that you pick different products when you can see the brands versus when you can't? The fact that you believe cheaper gear can sound better than more expensive ones, suggest you are probably not as prone to sighted bias as you believe... Perhaps if you trusted yourself more, you'd pick the same gear (whether cheaper or more expensive) in a sighted test as you would in a blind one...

Note: "TOTAL FOOL" can never be polite (though it is a funny insult), however if you want to avoid having posts edited by Mods and what comes after that I'd suggest not handing out insults to other forum members... Insults never aid a discussion...