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  1. #1
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    Bi-wiring AVR7300

    There are so many options with the Harman Kardon AVR7300, is there anything special I should know about this receiver before purchasing bi-wire cables?

  2. #2
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Welcome to the board, Karen!

    I'm a bit confused: are you trying to bi-wire or bi-amp? You mention a receiver but not the speakers, which is why I ask.

    Either way, I'd take a pass. Unless you are using an active crossover, passively bi-wiring speakers will usually yield inaudible differences. Your wallet/purse OTOH, feels considerably lighter thanks to the extra coin bi-wires command. Bi-amping off a receiver may actually degrade your sound simply because each channel of an AVR is still driven by one power supply. The more channels you use, the more your taxing the same power supply. This is a bad thing.

    Save the money you would have spent on needless wires and buy more music or dvd's !

  3. #3
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    Hi topspeed, thanks for your response

    Thanks for the welcome and the response. I have Kef Q7 speakers and from what I've read, since they are made to bi-wire then they will sound best bi-wired. I am fairly happy with the sound but would always like better. I find they produce sound with great clarity and will handle any volume well without distortion but lack "warmth or fullness" (for lack of better terms). Perhaps this is due more to room conditions than the speakers? I thought maybe bi-wiring would bring this quality out. It does not seem that my receiver is capable of bi-amping and I am not interested in purchasing another AVR2700 although I am very pleased with this receiver. The speakers came with foam inserts, will using these enrich the sound? I have assumed that they will dampen the sound.
    What started me on this search is a visit to my parents home. They have a set of Energy speakers that cost less than my Kefs yet the sound seems to gently yet richly fill the whole room. Sorry for my lack of technical jargon. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I think I'm becoming a sound snob, went to a party tonight and couldn't stand the sound of the dj's equipment. It lacked clarity and richness. )
    Perhaps I should part with my Kefs and pick up some Energy's? I should mention my parents have wall to wall carpeting and my floors are hardwood.
    Happy New Year,
    Karen

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Welcome to the board, Karen!

    I'm a bit confused: are you trying to bi-wire or bi-amp? You mention a receiver but not the speakers, which is why I ask.

    Either way, I'd take a pass. Unless you are using an active crossover, passively bi-wiring speakers will usually yield inaudible differences. Your wallet/purse OTOH, feels considerably lighter thanks to the extra coin bi-wires command. Bi-amping off a receiver may actually degrade your sound simply because each channel of an AVR is still driven by one power supply. The more channels you use, the more your taxing the same power supply. This is a bad thing.

    Save the money you would have spent on needless wires and buy more music or dvd's !

  4. #4
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    duh, too much wine with dinner...

    I should have said AVR7300. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen
    Thanks for the welcome and the response. I have Kef Q7 speakers and from what I've read, since they are made to bi-wire then they will sound best bi-wired. I am fairly happy with the sound but would always like better. I find they produce sound with great clarity and will handle any volume well without distortion but lack "warmth or fullness" (for lack of better terms). Perhaps this is due more to room conditions than the speakers? I thought maybe bi-wiring would bring this quality out. It does not seem that my receiver is capable of bi-amping and I am not interested in purchasing another AVR2700 although I am very pleased with this receiver. The speakers came with foam inserts, will using these enrich the sound? I have assumed that they will dampen the sound.
    What started me on this search is a visit to my parents home. They have a set of Energy speakers that cost less than my Kefs yet the sound seems to gently yet richly fill the whole room. Sorry for my lack of technical jargon. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I think I'm becoming a sound snob, went to a party tonight and couldn't stand the sound of the dj's equipment. It lacked clarity and richness. )
    Perhaps I should part with my Kefs and pick up some Energy's? I should mention my parents have wall to wall carpeting and my floors are hardwood.
    Happy New Year,
    Karen

  5. #5
    Old Audiophile SAEA501's Avatar
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    I have always gotten a kick out of this. Even fairly sophisticated audiophiles fall for this hocus-pocus. What’s more, loudspeaker manufacturers participate in the sham when they tell you that those two pairs of terminals on the back of the speaker are for biwiring as well as biamping. Some of the most highly respected names in loudspeakers are guilty of this hypocritical genuflection to the tweako sacraments. The truth is that biamping makes sense in certain cases, even with a passive crossover, but biwiring is pure voodoo. If you move one pair of speaker wires to the same terminals where the other pair is connected, absolutely nothing changes electrically. The law of physics that says so is called the superposition principle. In terms of electronics, the superposition theorem states that any number of voltages applied simultaneously to a linear network will result in a current, which is the exact sum of the currents that would result if the voltages were applied individually. The audio salesman or ’phile who can prove the contrary will be an instant candidate for some truly major scientific prizes and academic honors. At the same time it is only fair to point out that biwiring does no harm. It just doesn’t do anything. Like magnets in your shoes.

  6. #6
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen
    I have Kef Q7 speakers and from what I've read, since they are made to bi-wire then they will sound best bi-wired. I am fairly happy with the sound but would always like better.
    Hi Karen,

    Yes, bi-wiring can benefit some speakers by allowing isolation of certain electrical characteristics of the separate drivers like DCR and inductance. I differ from those who suggest that speaker engineers are charlatans out to sell more cable. If you speak with designers of some very nice speakers such as Jim Winey of Magnepan, Carl Marchisotto of NOLA, Arnie Nudell of Genesis, etc. you will find sound reasons behind their providing bi-wiring capability in their products.

    In the list of priorities, however, I would not start there. I would start by looking at room treatments to tame common issues such as slap echo and provide absorption of the first reflection points of the speakers. Also, most modern homes today contain all sorts of digital gear like computers, wireless routers, CD/DVD players, or digital cable boxes, etc. that generates radio frequency interference (RFI). RFI can negatively affect the sound of your system. I would look into getting a power conditioner for your front end components. Depending on the amount of such pollution in your environment, removing the glare caused by it can improve the clarity of the signal.

    Happy New Year to you as well!

    rw

  7. #7
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen
    Thanks for the welcome and the response. I have Kef Q7 speakers and from what I've read, since they are made to bi-wire then they will sound best bi-wired. I am fairly happy with the sound but would always like better.

    I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I think I'm becoming a sound snob, went to a party tonight and couldn't stand the sound of the dj's equipment.

    Happy New Year,
    Karen
    Well, I suppose it's okay to be an audio snob. Just be careful abotu over inflated claims, or empty ones.

    There are lots of claims about bi-wiring and while you can do all the mathematical gyrations that can show it will make a difference in some situatons, it still comes down to whether or not that change is audible. (Of course, that is if you accurately know all the variables, and there are no less than a half-dozen)

    So far, there really isn't any documented, relatable evidence that says it is in fact audible.

    Good Luck and Happy New Year.


    -Bruce
    Last edited by FLZapped; 01-02-2006 at 05:48 AM.

  8. #8
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    Totally agree

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Hi Karen,

    Yes, bi-wiring can benefit some speakers by allowing isolation of certain electrical characteristics of the separate drivers like DCR and inductance. I differ from those who suggest that speaker engineers are charlatans out to sell more cable. If you speak with designers of some very nice speakers such as Jim Winey of Magnepan, Carl Marchisotto of NOLA, Arnie Nudell of Genesis, etc. you will find sound reasons behind their providing bi-wiring capability in their products.

    In the list of priorities, however, I would not start there. I would start by looking at room treatments to tame common issues such as slap echo and provide absorption of the first reflection points of the speakers. Also, most modern homes today contain all sorts of digital gear like computers, wireless routers, CD/DVD players, or digital cable boxes, etc. that generates radio frequency interference (RFI). RFI can negatively affect the sound of your system. I would look into getting a power conditioner for your front end components. Depending on the amount of such pollution in your environment, removing the glare caused by it can improve the clarity of the signal.

    Happy New Year to you as well!

    rw
    I've bi-wired for the last decade or so with great results, although I currently only single wire. The reason is that the last set of cables I bought were used and I could only afford one run at that price! That said, they sound better than the double run of a different manufacturer that they replaced. I may try another run but it's not a priority at the moment.

  9. #9
    Old Audiophile SAEA501's Avatar
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    I don't recall anyone saying speaker engineers were charlatans trying to sell speaker wire. However, I could be mistaken.

    I have been working with audio equipment for 40 years and have seen many people bi wire their speakers with no positive sonic results. There are those that will argue to the death that bi wiring does yield positive results and there are those that will disagree. Go ahead and and set up your system as you see fit. If you hear a difference, then good on you. The only thing it will cost you is your time and a few bucks for the extra speaker wire.

    Most important thing to remember: enjoy your system. Everyone has their own tastes. The market if full of offerings from different manufacturers deisigned by engineers that all have their own ideas of how eqipment should be layed out. And, of course, all of this equipment has it's own sonic character. Buy what you like and set it up the way that suits you best. You are, after all, doing this for you.

  10. #10
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    A little more help please...

    Thanks for all the input. Just one question. My main concern is the lack of warmth or a sound that gently fills the whole room (for lack of better terms again). The speakers have great clarity so that is not the problem. Is the problem likely caused by my hardwood floors or am I looking for a quality that my speakers are not capable of? Please be patient with my lack of technical vocabulary and knowledge.
    Karen

  11. #11
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen
    Thanks for all the input. Just one question. My main concern is the lack of warmth or a sound that gently fills the whole room (for lack of better terms again). The speakers have great clarity so that is not the problem. Is the problem likely caused by my hardwood floors or am I looking for a quality that my speakers are not capable of? Please be patient with my lack of technical vocabulary and knowledge.
    Karen
    Karen,

    In my experience, better cabling can buy you resolution and bass slam, but I think your concern lies elsewhere. As you alluded to, I think you should focus on the room. Yes, hardwood floors are highly reflective. Too much can be a bad thing. Do you have any absorptive items in the room such as upholstered chairs or couches, drapes, bookshelves, etc.?

    rw

  12. #12
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAEA501
    I don't recall anyone saying speaker engineers were charlatans trying to sell speaker wire. However, I could be mistaken.
    The definitions of both "hocus-pocus" and "sham" both contain concepts like deceit and empty pretense. These hardly describe the intent of the engineers I've met. Perhaps you meant to use less inflammatory words.

    I use full range electrostats in my main system so the question is academic to me.

    rw

  13. #13
    Old Audiophile SAEA501's Avatar
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    I used the words I mean to use. If you take offense....well, I guess that's up to you.

    I came her to express opinions and have technical discussions. Perhaps, to even help someone. Not to start trouble.

    To each his own.

  14. #14
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAEA501
    I used the words I mean to use. If you take offense....well, I guess that's up to you.
    No offense taken. Do feel free to express your opinion.

    I just wondered why you were surprised that those who in your words "participate in shams" would also be called charlatans.

    rw

  15. #15
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    I agree your problem with lack of "warmth" is more likely a room issue than speaker/cabling. Reflective surfaces will cause speakers to sound more "bright" and blur imaging with sound bouncing all over. I haven't experienced any benefit from bi-wiring, but see definite advantages to bi-amping.

    I have my Legacy Focus mains bi-amped with a Denon AVR-3300 handling the mid/highs and a Yamaha M-65 handling the 3-12" woofers/ch. This configuration frees the Denon's 105W/ch from the demands of the woofers providing better mid-range clarity and the Yamaha provides plenty of warmth and ummmph. The Focus have a 16Hz lower limit and ample low-end which can suck the life out of even the most respectable AV receiver. Bi-amping also provides some peace of mind since I like to watch high-energy, action/Sci-Fi type movies with battles and explosions. Although very efficient (94db/W/m) the Focus are also a 4ohm load and can suck the power supply dry increasing distortion especially during explosions.

    I would first try making your room less reflective by possibly using wall-hangings, over-stuffed furniture, media shelves. You may also try audiophile sound absorbing panels to control first reflections. Understanding the room is one of the main components in your system will result in better sound and improve your sanity.

  16. #16
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    Will work on the room first

    Thanks again for all your input. Not only do I have hardwood floors but leather furnishings which likely are reflective as well. I recall having the door open in summer and thinking to myself that the sound actually was better outside than inside where the speakers are located. The music even sounded louder outside even though I was much farther away.

  17. #17
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    AVR 7300 questions

    I'm interested in buying a HK 7300. How do you like the sound and performance of your receiver? How would you describe the sound character? ( Warm, Bright, Forward, etc.). In addition, how do you like the upscaling of the video? I'm looking to match B&W CCM series. The other brands I'm considering are Rotel and Yamaha. Any thoughts and opinions would be great.

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