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  1. #26
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    You won't see a mad rush to upgrade and populate video collections [with Blu-ray] like you saw when the DVD format first came out
    Why not. The difference in quality is quite noticeable. Why won't people replace DVDs with Blu-ray like they replaced vinyl with CDs? Is it because Blu-ray players can play DVDs?

  2. #27
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    From VHS to DVD was a big step up in quality and convenience, no rewind, random access, 5.1, bonus features (for those who wanted that) etc. VHS was recordable though and i really don't think recording DVD caught on like recording on VHS did but that must not have mattered to the majority. I'm surprised at how many people I talk to really don't know, or don't take advantage of DVR or TiVo. It could be a price factor.

    Blu-ray basically only offers better picture and sound. You first have to have an HDTV to notice the picture and second a HT system that will allow you to take advantage of HD audio formats to get the largest gain in sound. Actually, Blu-ray discs are less user friendly than DVD, most players will not remember where in the movie you left off when left on pause too long or turned off, the menus for some reason you have more steps to set up and get back to main menu, as far as I know there's none that will start on their own like Disney's "Fast Play" and although there are a few that are getting close Blu is still slower to load and skip through. Whether these are things that really matter, I'm not sure. I was very disappointed my Samsung didn't remember where the movie left off, it seems like as soon as I start a movie no matter time of day or night my mom calls. My current Marantz does have the memory feature and that was a big plus. Of course, I didn't give up on Blu over the issues but they could be a hesitation for some.

  3. #28
    Forum Regular luvtolisten's Avatar
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    Speaking only for myself, I know of all the great features DVR and TiVo have, but I'd rather own than rent (pay monthly fees). I compromise between a VCR and DVR by using a DVD recorder. Not all the features of DVR's, but no monthly fees either.

    As far as Blu-Ray goes, I read an article in Sound and Vision (about a year ago) that Blu-Ray players weren't exactly flying off the shelves. Reason being the economy, and that the average Joe didn't think difference between what they had and Blu-Ray justified the cost. Their feeling was the market wouldn't pick up until the economy stabilizes, the price comes down, or the old DVD player dies.

  4. #29
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Mr. P, good point about requiring a new TV to enjoy Blu-ray. That was not the case with VHS to DVD or vinyl to CD.

    Do you think that once people have the HDTV (which people are buying for reasons other than blu-ray) and surround sound system (which many already have), you'd want to upgrade your movie collection too?

    Why the hell do they keep making home entertainment electronics more difficult to use?

  5. #30
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    Why not. The difference in quality is quite noticeable. Why won't people replace DVDs with Blu-ray like they replaced vinyl with CDs? Is it because Blu-ray players can play DVDs?
    For some of the same reasons you didn't see a mass movement over to SACD and DVD-A. SACD and DVD-A, aside from higher resolution, also offered up 5.1 audio for music releases. Those upgrades were not compelling enough for the buying public to line up behind those formats. Granted, this analogy is not a perfect fit because the studio support for Blu-ray is much greater than it ever was for SACD and DVD-A, and the widespread adoption of HDMI has minimized the copy protection headaches that plagued SACD and DVD-A. The studio support is the main reason why Blu-ray stands a much better chance than SACD and DVD-A did.

    I think that people won't be upgrading their DVD collections en masse for a couple of simple reasons. First off, HDTV adoption is right now between 33% and 40%. Gotta have HDTV to get the upgrade in video quality from Blu-ray.

    Second, people who've amassed huge DVD libraries aren't going to replace every single title. For one thing, not every title is worth buying twice (or even worth buying the first time around). The DVD format fundamentally changed the home video industry by shifting the market away from rentals and towards purchases. But, no matter if the industry is rental or purchase-based, it has always been driven by new releases. Even when the DVD format was creating a brand new generation of video collectors, the top selling titles remained new releases.

    The way that I see the market evolving, Blu-ray will make gradual inroads. As DVD players break down, people will replace them with Blu-ray players. As people buy Blu-ray players, they will stop buying new releases on DVD and buy them on Blu-ray instead. It's an evolutionary improvement, but still a significant one. I think Blu-ray will do well, but it won't set new records the way that the DVD format did.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 06-01-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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  6. #31
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Actually, Blu-ray discs are less user friendly than DVD, most players will not remember where in the movie you left off when left on pause too long or turned off, the menus for some reason you have more steps to set up and get back to main menu, as far as I know there's none that will start on their own like Disney's "Fast Play" and although there are a few that are getting close Blu is still slower to load and skip through. Whether these are things that really matter, I'm not sure.
    Most of the Warner BD titles (Blade Runner, The Road Warrior, The Matrix, Batman Begins, and 2001: A Space Odyssey) I own will go directly to the feature without a menu screen. The popup menu is much quicker at accessing the menu options than most DVDs. It's only those discs with BD Live features that make you jump through a bunch of hoops before the movie comes up. The load times will vary significantly from player to player.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvtolisten
    As far as Blu-Ray goes, I read an article in Sound and Vision (about a year ago) that Blu-Ray players weren't exactly flying off the shelves. Reason being the economy, and that the average Joe didn't think difference between what they had and Blu-Ray justified the cost. Their feeling was the market wouldn't pick up until the economy stabilizes, the price comes down, or the old DVD player dies.
    A year ago, the Blu-ray/HD-DVD format war had barely ended. BD players still cost over $400, and the fastest selling BD title had sold 200,000 copies.

    This year, the industry has rallied around Blu-ray. BD player sales are running more than double their sales from a year ago. The Dark Knight has sold over 2 million BD copies. Basically, the market conditions are much better for Blu-ray for the simple reason that consumers know about the format, and more households now own HDTVs.

    By the time the holidays roll around, you'll likely see the first sub-$100 Blu-ray players and a new round of BD sales records from the summer movie slate.

    Despite (or perhaps because of) the recession, this year's movie box office is on a recordbreaking pace. Box office performance will usually translate into strong home video sales as well. Many of the stongest titles from this summer such as Star Trek will drive Blu-ray player and disc sales when the holidays roll around. Last year, more than half of the BD players were sold during the holiday season, and analysts expect a similar push this year especially with the price points on off-brand players moving below $100 and the name brand players expected to dip below $200.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 06-01-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    Mr. P, good point about requiring a new TV to enjoy Blu-ray. That was not the case with VHS to DVD or vinyl to CD.

    Do you think that once people have the HDTV (which people are buying for reasons other than blu-ray) and surround sound system (which many already have), you'd want to upgrade your movie collection too?

    Why the hell do they keep making home entertainment electronics more difficult to use?
    I personally have just been buying new releases on BR. I did buy the Underworld trilogy which I already owned one of the three on DVD so there could be an occasional replacement.

    I believe Blu was rushed to market to be able to compete with HD-DVD and small details were left out or forgotten. It seems the "industry" unfortunately is not all of one mind any more either which leads to problems like the Java issues. And, I don't even want to begin talking about the moron/criminals at HDMI LLC. Or, what about Blu coming out with all the decoding was first going to be done by the player and then the big switch to going ahead and putting HD audio decoding and allowing bitstream to a receiver. There's a laundry list of craziness that happened with this format. I personally believe if it wasn't for the war and the buzz it created neither HD format may not have gotten off the ground. Another reason I think products continue to become more difficult to use, a company may have several departments working on the one product and if you have ever been on the inside of a large corporation the various departments don't communicate with each other very well or may feed information to a head person who don't put it all together in as nice a package as it could be.

    Wooch, With Disney's "Fast Play" a kid can put a DVD in the player and it will automatically play with no buttons to push. When going into the BR menu to check audio settings or whatever there are more steps you have to select to get in, make your selection and get out than there is on DVD. Maybe small things bug me more or you just won't allow anything bad to be said about Blu but the menus are not as user friendly as they are on DVD.

  8. #33
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Wooch, With Disney's "Fast Play" a kid can put a DVD in the player and it will automatically play with no buttons to push.
    So do those Warner titles that I cited. If you need to make any changes, just push the button for the pop up menu and you can change any of the options on the fly. A lot more convenient than a lot of DVDs that are authored such that the audio and video buttons are locked out and setup changes must go through the menu screen. I've yet to encounter a BD that requires going back to the menu screen to change the audio options

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    When going into the BR menu to check audio settings or whatever there are more steps you have to select to get in, make your selection and get out than there is on DVD. Maybe small things bug me more or you just won't allow anything bad to be said about Blu but the menus are not as user friendly as they are on DVD.
    You're not making any sense here, given that DVD menus can be every bit as convoluted. The pop up menu on those Warner titles is about as simple as it gets. The issues you cite have nothing to do with the format itself, and everything to do with the disc authoring. A disc producer can make a given title as simple or as complicated as they see fit, and with Blu-ray I've seen both.
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  9. #34
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    The fast play is nice, and makes sense sense since you have a pop-up menu system .
    But then you can't put 30 min of previews on the front...
    BLU will be implemented a lot faster than DVD since its just an improved version
    of that format, with a few gee-gaws and increased storage, and its backward compatible.
    As for replacing DVD with blu, I finally gave in and rented Valkyrie on DVD.
    The pic was okay but not great, blu just has DVD beat, and I probably wont waste money on another, save one that wont be on BLU.
    However I saw empire strikes back playing on a Blu player in Blockbuster today
    and was so amazed at the quality that I asked if they had snuck a Starwars Blu disc out.
    The up-conversion q was amazing, really.
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  10. #35
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Talking

    DVD is dead BTW.
    (HEE HEE
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  11. #36
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    Why not. The difference in quality is quite noticeable.
    Only on HDTV. Even then DVD can look pretty darn good on a not too big HDTV.

  12. #37
    Forum Regular luvtolisten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    Why the hell do they keep making home entertainment electronics more difficult to use?
    Boy, I hear you on that. Some features are useful, some are bells and whistles. I think some companies believe the more complicated it is, the higher tech people will think it is. As far as features go, give me quality, not quantity.I have yet to use the "angle" feature on my DVD player. I never found a DVD that offered that feature. Another reason why I went back to being a 2 channel guy. It's easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luvtolisten
    Boy, I hear you on that. Some features are useful, some are bells and whistles. I think some companies believe the more complicated it is, the higher tech people will think it is. As far as features go, give me quality, not quantity.I have yet to use the "angle" feature on my DVD player. I never found a DVD that offered that feature. Another reason why I went back to being a 2 channel guy. It's easier.
    Some DVDs do make use of the 'angle' feature, but its usually not worth bothering with. The player is usually too slow to respond anyway.
    All we are saying, is give peas a chance.

  14. #39
    Forum Regular luvtolisten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emesbee
    Some DVDs do make use of the 'angle' feature, but its usually not worth bothering with. The player is usually too slow to respond anyway.
    Well, whadda know! Thanks for posting!

    PS Let's not only "give peas a chance", but mashed potatoes and gravy too!

  15. #40
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Man! First Pixie comes out in song about lettuce and Luvto sallies forth with peas, potatoes and gravy! Mebbe y'all should eat before you post!

  16. #41
    Forum Regular luvtolisten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auricauricle
    Man! First Pixie comes out in song about lettuce and Luvto sallies forth with peas, potatoes and gravy! Mebbe y'all should eat before you post!
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    Eat before post...............................mmmmmmmmmmmm. Eat after post.....mmmmm Eat during post..mmmmmmmmmmmmm..Eat post....mmmmmmmmmmmm

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    [QUOTE=webkid90]I was wondering for a moment who would want to add an SD player to their system but I guess if you had a docking system for your mp3 player you would be set. Although I've used the earphone jack to connect my player to a couple different things and I didn't like the results.

    I'm glad some else said something, I haven't liked using the earphone jack either.

  18. #43
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Think Computer!

    I just installed two Solid State Hard Drives in my computer and will never go back to standard hard drives. They are very fast, use very little power and make no noise.

    As solid state memory declines in price, they will replace mechanical drives, i.e. Cd's and DVD's. Gone will be jitter and scrached disks.

    Taking this one step further...

    Solid state central music/video servers will replace our DVD and CD players. Movies and Music will be bought and downloaded from the Internet. In time, we will subscribe to Movie and Music servers online and not really own the software. However, we will be able to pick and choose what we keep in our favorites folder and even download them to our portable devices.

    As we all know, the D/A converter is what differentiates a really good player from an average player. This can be done in software.

    In addition to this, a highend music server will allow us to modify the output much like athe DEQX does and help our lower priced speakers sound like a highend speaker system.

    Mechanical devices like the CD and DVD players are going away and probably very soon.

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    From what I understand U-verse does a similar thing with their DVR service, there's no built in hard drive in the box, the saved programming must be stored for customers online or some where. When some one else has what you want though you are at their mercy. Any one notice gas prices lately? I can see this as an option but not stamping out CD.

    Also, internet has a lot of growing to do to get this to every one. Many still don't even use the internet. I have it but I am at the end of my line and my DSL is much slower than it should be. I can't even watch a Youtube video without drop out. A friend of mine can't even get DSL via phone line. Cable is an option if you are lucky enough to have a cable company that you can get along with. Once this fiber optic gets off the ground more depending on how much more bandwidth they offer it could possibly make something similar to what you describe happen.

  20. #45
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Also, internet has a lot of growing to do to get this to every one. Many still don't even use the internet. I have it but I am at the end of my line and my DSL is much slower than it should be. I can't even watch a Youtube video without drop out. A friend of mine can't even get DSL via phone line. Cable is an option if you are lucky enough to have a cable company that you can get along with. Once this fiber optic gets off the ground more depending on how much more bandwidth they offer it could possibly make something similar to what you describe happen.
    Yes, you are right, this isn't going to happen next week, but soon enough.

    ...It only seemed like yesterday...

    While television was invented somewhat earlier... From a consumer perspective, TV came out in the late 1940's. It was about then that TV's began proliferating into the homes of American consumers. That was just before I was born.

    I saw my first color television when I was in my middle teens and they were horrible and wonderful at the same time. It was about then that I heard stereo for the first time.

    That was in the middle sixties!

    Even in the late fifties - early sixties, we had a phone that did not have a dial. We had to turn a crank to call an operator who patched us into the party we were trying to call. It was a party line. To be fair, at the same time and in different locations, we had dial service too.

    To show you how fast things have changed...
    When I was 30 years old, I worked with an older gentleman (he was a biochemist) that worked as a lab boy for Thomas Edison. In case you don't know, Mr. Edison invented the phonograph and the first practical light bulb among other major advances in technology.

    On September 4 1882, Edison switched on the world's first electrical power distribution system.

    The first gasoline powered car was invented in 1893. Henry Ford sold his first car in 1896.

    The Z1 originally created by Germany's Konrad Zuse in his parents living room in 1936 to 1938 is considered to be the first electrical binary programmable computer.

    In 1947, the first commercial microwave oven hit the market.

    The Internet began in about 1990.

    According to wikipedia, the oldest person living was born in 1894.

    The point is that this technology that is such an integral part of our lives has come about relatively recently. Most of what we consider modern technology has come about in a liitle more that one human life span. AMAZING!

    What we consider as normal today was inconcievable when I was a child.

    Back to the subject...

    Yes, CD's and DVD's will go the way of records and soon enough.

    Technology marches on in an ever increasing speed.

    When the children of today become senior citzens, the world they live in will be nothing like the world they grew up in.

    We can only imagine what the future holds and with what we know now, it can only give us a minut glimpse of what it possible.

    All we can really do is sit back and go with the flow...

    For the near future...

    Imagine that each home that has a central server that handles all in coming and outgoing data (Audio, Video, and Data).

    TV's and computers will be wirelessly connected to this server. There will be no wire except maybe a power cord.

    Your computer will consist of a monitor and wireless keyboard and mouse. The keyboard and mouse link to the monitor and the monitor links to the server.

    Wouldn't that be nice? No more boxes and no more wires.

    Now take this one step further. The computer that actually runs your programs is located at your ISP. The video and audio is transmitted via the Internet bidirectionally to this ISP. The advantage of this is that the ISP could provide the lastest and greatest software and you wouldn't have to upgrade your computer every five years or so.

    Since this is an audio site...

    Imagine having access to every recording ever made at the touch of a button...

    Or... Having access to every new audio or video format piped directly to your amplifiers and monitors. This would end having to upgrade our surround receivers and TVs everytime the industry gets a new idea.

    Just let your imagine run wild! Chances are that if you thought it, someone else is already working on it.

    One final thought...

    TV commercials are one of the most distracting and time wasting conceptions of the modern age. It takes an hour to watch a 40 minute show. If we watch 3 shows a night, that's an hour out of our day. That's 365 hours a year. Assuming we work 8 hours a day and sleep 8 hours a day that means that we have only 8 hours a day to pursue personal interests. If we save one hour a day by getting rid of commercials, that gives us about 45 more 8 hour days a year that we can use for ourselves. What would this be worth to you to get rid of the commercials? Would paying an extra $10 per month to your TV provider be worth the time saved? How about $20 or $30? Well, it's something to think about...
    Last edited by StevenSurprenant; 06-16-2009 at 04:56 AM.

  21. #46
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant
    TV commercials are one of the most distracting and time wasting conceptions of the modern age. It takes an hour to watch a 40 minute show. If we watch 3 shows a night, that's an hour out of our day. That's 365 hours a year. Assuming we work 8 hours a day and sleep 8 hours a day that means that we have only 8 hours a day to pursue personal interests. If we save one hour a day by getting rid of commercials, that gives us about 45 more 8 hour days a year that we can use for ourselves. What would this be worth to you to get rid of the commercials? Would paying an extra $10 per month to your TV provider be worth the time saved? How about $20 or $30? Well, it's something to think about...
    I was interested. I did some research. It looks like your numbers are about right. Advertisers will pay at least 1 cent per minute per viewer. (Watching television commercials pays as low as $0.60/hr.) If you're watching the national average 4 hours of television per day, you're helping broadcasters earn at least $20/month in ad revenue.

  22. #47
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Very nice post, Steven! Definitely food for thought and well-phrased! Thanks for the morsels!

  23. #48
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    Vinyl never vanished. Diminshed greatly yes buts its very much alive and growing. There is also a trend now where people want something tangeable to smell, feel, hold, read, sonmething you can't do with hard drives. People don't want to turn on the computer just to listen to music.

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    People don't want to turn on the computer just to listen to music.
    This depends on the person. I listen to far more music these days than when I was spinning LPs or dropping CDs in a tray. Having a music server gives fast access to my 40,000 tune collection in a way that cannot be duplicated when one has to go hunting for a album sitting on a shelf.

    I'll admit there is a certain charm to the 12" X 12" album artwork of an LP, but a lot of that was lost with the advent of the CD small jewel case. In any event, once the music starts playing, the only thing that matters to me is what comes out of the speakers.

    As far as LP sales, here are the 2008 numbers from Nielsen Soundscan surveys.

    There were 1.9 million LPs sold in 2008. This was 0.13% of the total 1.5 billion music units sold (CDs, downloads, etc). CD sales were 363 million units, or 191 times the LP sales.

    The biggest selling LP in 2008 was Radiohead's "In Rainbows" which sold 25,800 copies. They sold more tickets for two nights at Hollywood Bowl than LPs.

    So, yes, the LP sales gains look impressive when expressed as a percentage against itself, but the real sales winner in this has been the growth of downloaded tracks which broke the one billion mark.

  25. #50
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Seems that the LP movement is still in the cottage industry phase; too early to say whether it'll gain much ground as it did back in the day. I find the renewed interest facinating and tend to think that while the newbies' zeal is noteworthy, they represent a different population than oldtimers (myself included). As far as the "charm" goes, I still dig 'em. The art, the way they smell and even the snaps, crackles and pops is all pretty heady for me. Somebody here once voiced some frustration over the inconvenience of having to get up and flip them, but that's part of the appeal in my book, and just one more reason I get...so...emotional talking about this stuff! (Sniff!)

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