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  1. #51
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    Here's a couple:

    What type of listening do you plan to do, ie. stereo, home theater, both.
    What, if any, software do you already have, ie. vinyl, CD, SACD/DVD-A.
    Budget. And along with that, what level of quality. Receivers/separates
    Space/listening room
    Must have features.
    And, above all else, does the sound please my ears, will it continue to do so without fatigue?

  2. #52
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    About those Panasonics

    Hey, I was checking around to take a look at the current Panasonic HT receivers and they seem some what scarce. I know a guy who is looking and I thought it might be a good excuse to give them another listen. Crutchfield has one model, BB has only one and I didn't find many more. I found a few at online discounters moving older models. I was just curious if they are between model change or if they had been discontinued. Maybe they only make one model. Anyone know?

  3. #53
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Try Amazon

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Hey, I was checking around to take a look at the current Panasonic HT receivers and they seem some what scarce. I know a guy who is looking and I thought it might be a good excuse to give them another listen. Crutchfield has one model, BB has only one and I didn't find many more. I found a few at online discounters moving older models. I was just curious if they are between model change or if they had been discontinued. Maybe they only make one model. Anyone know?

    Try this:

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_et...&Go.x=3&Go.y=6

    The latest model is the SA-XR700

    There is also a SA-XR70 which is not on the Amazon site.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the XR25 only has one set of banana plug connectors for the main speakers. The other connectors for the surround channels are the little flip up lever types. Some of the higher models have more of the better connectors.

    The other thing is that I highly suggest that you use the optical inputs.
    Last edited by StevenSurprenant; 05-29-2007 at 04:30 AM.

  4. #54
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I believe that EricL tried one of these recently and liked it very much.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  5. #55
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    It just seems odd to me that brands like Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha etc have several models and easily accessible at just about any store (market penetration), yet here's Panasonic, a major consumer electronics corp ( I forget how to spell parent corp, Matshu whatever) where if you can find their receiver the store offers one model. It would seem if the receiver lived up to the hype we should see at least equal market exposure. Or, maybe the receiver is great but the company is having problems. There just has to be more to this.

  6. #56
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    I can tell you this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    It just seems odd to me that brands like Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha etc have several models and easily accessible at just about any store (market penetration), yet here's Panasonic, a major consumer electronics corp ( I forget how to spell parent corp, Matshu whatever) where if you can find their receiver the store offers one model. It would seem if the receiver lived up to the hype we should see at least equal market exposure. Or, maybe the receiver is great but the company is having problems. There just has to be more to this.
    Two or three years ago they were on the store shelves, but none of the sales people I spoke to knew anything about them. For the most part, they figured that the digital part was in the surround decoding like all the rest of the surround receivers. They were unaware that it was a true digital amp. I wasn't even sure about it from the info presented in the store. What I was sure about was that the clarity of sound was very impressive compared to any other receiver I had listened to. I watched customers walk right by them in favor of the BIG boxes offered by the other manufacturers. In terms of shelf appeal, there was no comparison with the other receivers. The bigger boxes looked more powerful and their features were more apparent. Eventually, they were taken off the store shelves due to lack of sales.

    I really don't blame them. How could this rather small receiver compare to the other name brands. Panasonic was never considered a major player in the audio receiver market and so it was ignored.

    So, I would mark it up as poor marketing and no prior reputation in this area.

    The only people who caught on to this were people who were more knowledgeable about audio and hence is the reason why it became popular amongst the audio enthusiast on a smaller budget. Unfortunately, it is the mainstream consumer that makes of breaks a company.

    People like yourself and a small handful of others make up what is considered the high end consumer. We have little or no effect on the general market. The high end market is dying and most of the people still supporting it are in their fifties or older. We live in the ipod generation now.

    Most people I speak to think that Bose is a high end company. What does that tell you?

    Anyhow, digital is here to stay and, I believe, analog will eventually go the way of vinyl. Considering that digital is in it's first incarnation, it will only get more refined from here.

    For years I complained that I never had a bad record during my analog days, but I have many CDs that are awful.

    A gentleman once said, " If one CD sounds better than the best vinyl then digital has succeeded."

    Well, that has happened to me. I still have many crappy CDs, but the best of them put the best vinyl I had to shame. Perhaps your experience is different.

    The best system I've heard was analog with a digital front end. Nothing and I mean nothing I've heard since could compare with that experiance. It actually fooled me into thinking that there were other people in the room with me. It made me realize and admit that no matter how good your system is, it's rare that it doesn't still sound like a stereo. That's why I kind of chuckle to myself when people get uppity about this hobbie. Chances are their system, albeit very good, still sounds like a stereo. I've learned my lesson and am more humble for it.

    FYI, After I bought my Panny, I still couldn't believe I would own a receiver let alone a Panasonic. I was almost embarrassed to admit it. Still am! There goes my humbleness (chuckle!).

    If I had the cash, I would go after the best of the best in analog, but the sad part is that I believe that in short time, analog will not be able to compete with digital on any level. A case in point is the television. I've watched its evolution since the fifties and would never go back to what was considered state of the art back then. In fact, I wouldn't even want to go back ten years. Still, the technology just keeps getting better.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it....

  7. #57
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    Steve and Mr P and others, Thanks for all the inputs given. It shows that there is too much in sound and too many factors that play a part in the final output. However, a lot of what was transacted was way too technical to me. Can one of you put it in simple words for me ?

    From what I read here, I understand that when there is analog input (tape of LP) the Panasonic might not shine. But with CD, DVD, mp3 or iPods the sound is the best for that price range or at least one of the best. Also, the performance superior when paired with a Panasonic DVD player and optical cables. Pl. clarify. Thanks again

  8. #58
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    That makes sense, Americans have long been marketed to that bigger is better. I have to admit I had my doubts about a 11 lb. amp that cost $3k and supposed to deliver 125 x 5. My former Arcam amp had to go into the shop and I talked the store I usually deal with into letting me borrow their Linn demo. It had no problem delivering the power and the fact that it had no heat and auto turn on eventually led me to getting one. I placed it inside my cabinet and once hooked up, I never have to mess with it again. The Linn amp has a very seductive sound especially in the midrange but again, I'd prefer my Krell or CJ for music.

    You really can't compare TV to audio though. There is obviously light years of noticeable improvement between black & white to HDTV. Some people still pay several times original retail price for Marantz tube gear from the 60's. I personally converted from Krell in my main system to CJ tube gear. It's modern tube gear but the basic technology goes back. My point is what is appealing in audio is still very subjective where video, at least in modern vs vintage, is objectively decisive.

    If you want to be fooled by your audio system into believing the performers are in the room, you should take a listen to some tube gear.

  9. #59
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Mr. Peabody & Victor

    "If you want to be fooled by your audio system into believing the performers are in the room, you should take a listen to some tube gear."

    I've heard that from several people. I might look into that someday. Thanks.
    By the way, the system I was refering to was running Spectral gear.

    "My point is what is appealing in audio is still very subjective where video, at least in modern vs vintage, is objectively decisive."

    You're right again!

    Victor...

    "From what I read here, I understand that when there is analog input (tape of LP) the Panasonic might not shine. But with CD, DVD, mp3 or iPods the sound is the best for that price range or at least one of the best. Also, the performance superior when paired with a Panasonic DVD player and optical cables."

    You understand it correctly.

    Panasonic DVD players upsample and that might account for much of the sound improvement. That is a good thing in my book.

    As for the analog part of the Panasonic...

    When comparing the analog output from the DVD player to the optical output when connected directly to the receiver, the optical is more transparent. Also, I would highly recommend a glass optical cable. I tried plastic and the glass was more transparent. I bought my cable on ebay for about $35.

    However, in my system I run the optical output into a Behringer electronic crossover and the crossover outputs analog. Because of this I have to use the analog inputs to the receiver. It still sounds very clear. If I could, I would prefer to go digital all the way, but my gear won't allow that. I'm still thrilled with what I'm hearing. So you know, I am bi-amping my speakers. that means I am splitting the signals into high and low before it gets to the amps. I have to run two amps on each speaker. The Panny allows me to do this by running my electronic crossover into the DVD-A inputs on the Panny amp. Some say this is the best setup and I feel they might be right.

    The point is, connect the DVD player to the receiver using glass optical and you're set to go. Connect your speakers, plug in the DVD player and Reciever and you're done.

    Not meaning to confuse you, there is also HMDI which I have not tried. Some DVD players and Receivers have this option and it might be good too. I believe some Panasonic models have this.

    One last thing...

    I think that speaker wires make a difference and you will get many opinions about that. I would recommend DH Labs T14 if you're going with smaller speakers such as the Ascend Acoustics that I mentioned. They are silver coated copper and are very transparent sounding. Also, they don't cost a fortune. I am using the DH Labs Q10 which would be over kill for you.

    Ascend also recommends the HSU sub to go with their speaker. I have one and for the money, they are very very nice.

    You can build your system in steps, so don't think you have to get all this stuff at once. Just start with the Panny receiver, DVD, Ascend combo and go from there.

    Of course, you may make other choices, so I wish you the best whatever path you choose. This can be a very fun hobbie if you get hooked.

    Let us know how it turns out....

    Steve

  10. #60
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I recommend that you try the following combination.

    Blue Circle CS Integrated Amplifier
    Hales Revelation 3 Speakers
    Audioquest Slate Cables
    Monarchy Audio DAC and DIP and any Transport you can find.
    Interconnects are DIY from Allen Wreights "Super cables cook book" from VSE

    That will give you a very nice sounding system and with great room for future upgrades if you wish.

    Cheers

    Flo

  11. #61
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    Steve, I didn't understand your set up. Do you have a separate amp in addition to your receiver? If you go from your DVD digitally right into the crossover and then into the analog input, there's no way for you to get 5.1 surround. The digital from the DVD player would have to be decoded by the receiver's surround processor to direct the sound into which of the 5 channels. Dolby digital 5.1 also has frequency cutoffs encoded in the soundtrack, this is why for most subs running off the LFE out, the sub uses "bypass" mode, no need for a crossover. I can see bi-amping being done from the pre-outs of the receiver, after all the processing but it sounded like you cross right out of the DVD player.

  12. #62
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Steve, I didn't understand your set up. Do you have a separate amp in addition to your receiver? If you go from your DVD digitally right into the crossover and then into the analog input, there's no way for you to get 5.1 surround. The digital from the DVD player would have to be decoded by the receiver's surround processor to direct the sound into which of the 5 channels. Dolby digital 5.1 also has frequency cutoffs encoded in the soundtrack, this is why for most subs running off the LFE out, the sub uses "bypass" mode, no need for a crossover. I can see bi-amping being done from the pre-outs of the receiver, after all the processing but it sounded like you cross right out of the DVD player.
    The Panasonic XR25 has discrete analog inputs for DVD-A. They did this due to legal issues at the time. The newer models allow DVD-A inputs through the HMDI cables.

    In order to access the amps separately I use these inputs.

    I run an optical cable into a Behringer DEQ equalizer and from there I run a 110ohm balanced cable from the DEQ to the Behringer DEX electronic crossover. At this point. everything is digital. The DEX only outputs analog, so I feed these outputs to the analog DVD-A inputs of the receiver.

    Doing this, I loose all the surround features of the receiver, as you surmised. You're a smart man!

    Because of this and wanting the ability to go surround someday, I started putting together a passive crossover for the speakers. I have finished the analog crossover for the tweeter, but have not started on the woofer section yet. As of now, I am running the tweeter signal through the DEX with no processing, letting the passive crossover do its work. The woofer gets processed through the DEX.

    In case you're interested, I've heard it is best to run passive on the tweeters and active on the rest. Well, someone said that...

    In my case, I have found that to be true. Another thing I found to make HUGE difference are the Capacitors used in the crossover. When I went from active to using the stock cap that came with the tweeter, the soundstage all but vanished and micro details vanished. I then tried using Audio Cap Theta caps and it sounded pretty much like the active crossover. I then went to Mundorf Siver/oil caps along with the Theta's. I also, used a foil inductor in the circuit. This brought the crossover frequency down to about 800Hz for the tweeter. (I am using a Newform R45 tweeter.) This setup was much better than anything I heard before. Eventually, I went all Mundorf Silver/Oil and I can't tell you how pleased I am. The problem is that the Mundorf are very expensive and I can only afford a little at a time.

    I am not running a sub at the moment. I did for a while, running the DEX into the sub circuits of the Panny. It worked fine, but for music, the main speakers sound pretty good without it.

    I have to tell you this...

    Other than buying new speakers, changing the caps was one of the greatest improvements in sound that I have ever experienced. Much greater than any change in electronics or cables. As for the electronic crossover, I have nothing to compare it to since these speakers are home-brew and started out with an active crossover.

    In case you ever go down this path ( not that you would want to), you need to know this...

    The Panny DVD player upsamples up to 192KHz, but the Behringer only allows 96KHz. I had to reduce the upsampling of the DVD player so they would sync. The other thing is that you need to set the receiver to DVD 6 channel. You just press the DVD button on the remote twice to get this.

    I hope this isn't too much information, but you asked!
    Last edited by StevenSurprenant; 06-02-2007 at 07:07 AM.

  13. #63
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    A friend of mine here on the board has been working on a speaker project for some years and he said the same thing about caps and other internal parts. He and I both agree, as you do, that speaker wire also makes a difference. He has also made some of his own interconnects and speaker connects.

    The DEX must have a D to A built in, I'll have to take a look at some of Barringer's gear. I only use sub for movies too.

    I haven't done much with outboard crossovers in home audio. I've done a little in car and pro audio. Most of the systems I've seen have either been active or passive, not a mix. We used to put a low pass protect circuit on a certain Electro Voice horn tweeter. It literally only handled 5 watts, but it could probably cause hearing damage at 5 watts. That's the only thing off the top of my head I can think of that would be both.

  14. #64
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    If your looking for a decent surround sound system, I would seriously consider the B&Ws at half price. Try to find bookshelves that all match. If they're magnetically shielded, see if you can get a total of 5 (4 plus one used for the center channel). Nothing will ruin a surround sound system more than a small, inadequate center speaker.

    If you're into classical music, you should think about an SACD player. There are tons of classical SACDs currently available, and they are still making them.

    Look for a higher powered Yamaha, Harmon Kardon, Denon or Onko 5.1 or 7.1 receiver.

  15. #65
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    Have not posted in a long time, but have been visiting the forum occasionally. However, I did make some gear purchase . After all my search for a HT receiver to my liking, I settled for Yamaha (as I had previously mentioned). The Onkyo SR 505 came as close competition. I finally settled for Yammy HTR 5940 that was on sale at RadioShack. I am also got a pair of used Optimus ProLX5 with linaeum tweets (need to restore the tweeter on one) and optimus CS centre. The Optimus is temporarily my front speakers. I am still on the lookout for a Sub. I also used 14 gauge speaker cables. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.
    Any recommendations for a Sub under $150 would be appreciated.
    Just wanted to post a note on the forum. the recommendations given by the folks here. were very useful.

  16. #66
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Speakers: Paradigm Atom $199 (a staggering value!)
    DVD/CD/SACD: Oppo 981HD $229
    Integrated Amp: NAD C 325BEE: 399.00
    Speaker Cables: transparent MusicWave (used) $150.00
    Interconnects CD to integrated: Transparent MusicLink, 1 or 2 mtr (used) $100 or so
    Speaker Stands: (used) around $60
    Power Conditioning: Monster HTP1100: $125.00

    Total: $1,262.00

    You may wish to think about resetting your expectations for $600.00, because you really will find it nigh on impossible to put a decent system together for this price unless you run into some used give-away situation. The total for the equipment suggested is about twice your current budget, but if you want decent hi-fidelity you have to get the basics right. You will need cables, and power conditioner. This system will give you excellent performance for a low price, and some of it is sourced used from Audiogon or ebay (be very careful on ebay).

    NB: If you don't require video capability but need mostly for CD then you can consider this instead of the Oppo: NAD C 525BEE CD Player: $299.00

  17. #67
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Speakers: Paradigm Atom $199 (a staggering value!)
    DVD/CD/SACD: Oppo 981HD $229
    Integrated Amp: NAD C 325BEE: 399.00
    Speaker Cables: transparent MusicWave (used) $150.00
    Interconnects CD to integrated: Transparent MusicLink, 1 or 2 mtr (used) $100 or so
    Speaker Stands: (used) around $60
    Power Conditioning: Monster HTP1100: $125.00

    Total: $1,262.00

    You may wish to think about resetting your expectations for $600.00, because you really will find it nigh on impossible to put a decent system together for this price unless you run into some used give-away situation. The total for the equipment suggested is about twice your current budget, but if you want decent hi-fidelity you have to get the basics right. You will need cables, and power conditioner. This system will give you excellent performance for a low price, and some of it is sourced used from Audiogon or ebay (be very careful on ebay).

    NB: If you don't require video capability but need mostly for CD then you can consider this instead of the Oppo: NAD C 525BEE CD Player: $299.00
    Especially when you spend close to 30% on I/Cs, PCs and speaker cables. So if he doesn't need video capabilities you recomend a higher price CD player??? Remember this is a budget system.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

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