2012 California Audio Show

[tube fan]

I see. You've never listened to any in your own system under single blind conditions.

I fail to see how anything I have posted indicates that I have done no blind listening tests of ss amps. NOTHING! Oh yes, it's another incorrect assumption/conclusion. I've heard some good things about SET ss amps, and I would like to hear one.

[E-Stat]

I fail to see how anything I have posted indicates that I have done no blind listening tests of ss amps. NOTHING!

Perhaps you missed the fact that you quoted my question and *chose* not to answer it. As this response continues to illustrate.

[tube fan]

Perhaps you missed the fact that you quoted my question and *chose* not to answer it. As this response continues to illustrate.

What question, in which post, are you referring to? This is beyond picayune!

[E-Stat]

What question, in which post, are you referring to?

That would be your post on the 11th around noon. I'll be happy to repeat the question:

With your penchant for (single) blind testing, to what SS gear have you compared your 80s vintage ARC gear in your own system?

[tube fan]

That would be your post on the 11th around noon. I'll be happy to repeat the question:

With your penchant for (single) blind testing, to what SS gear have you compared your 80s vintage ARC gear in your own system?

Check my post #46: Krell, Bryston, Ayre, Naim and others. All ss units supplied by various friends.

[JohnMichael]

Check my post #46: Krell, Bryston, Ayre, Naim and others. All ss units supplied by various friends.

Can you list model numbers instead of brand names since all companies have had some products that were more successful than others?

[tube fan]

Can you list model numbers instead of brand names since all companies have had some products that were more successful than others?

Here are two that happen to be in Stereophile's Class "A" ss list of amps: Ayre V-5xe and Simaudio Mood W-7.

[JohnMichael]

Here are two that happen to be in Stereophile's Class "A" ss list of amps: Ayre V-5xe and Simaudio Mood W-7.

I think you might mean the Simaudio Moon W-7? Any other models from the brands listed previously?

[RGA]

DSD system I heard and covered at CES 2010

Pyramix DSD/DXD workstation, and a Digit Audio Denmark converter capable of 32-bit/352.8kHz operation. (Usher room)

Ray Kimber was also running hires in the Sony room at CES 2010. Incidentally the room I also purchased his High Altitude drums disc. Unfortunately the effort is all about the recording sound over the music - it's not a musically rewarding album - like most of the discs people use to test gear. Which is why it doesn't sell outside the audiophile market.

Not sure I get the argument.
Sarah McLachlan is not available on hi rez cause she's a Niche artist. Really? Niche implies a subset of the market with little popular interest.

Sarah McLachlan Sales "as of 2009, she has sold over 40 million albums worldwide."

Diana Krall is probably the biggest selling audiophile Jazz singer and has sold 15 million. Impressive - but less than half that of Sarah.

Adele sold 22 million copies of one album for heaven sake and she's an artist screaming for a better sounding recording!

Madonna? close to 300,000,000 album sales.

And before someone makes the "it's amplified music so who needs it on a better format?" argument - why then are there tons of old fogy CCR and Rolling Stones, Genesis, type stuff available? That case doesn't fly.

Even Jackson Browne has sold more than most of the available lot on this SACD availability list.
SA-CD.net - Recent Additions

But yes everyone - throw out ALL your vinyl and CD because something new is out. never mind that the top selling artists are not available on the format and the occasional few popular artists who are available have only a few of their albums on the format. The public spoke with their wallets on SACD - and they laughed it off the map.

Setting up CD? Yes the dismissive answer - place CD player on a rack - connect CD player to amplifier with one of various connection options - turn CD player on, put CD in - listen to CD.

If you can point me to ANYTHING that tells users to open the box and fiddle with the internal workings of the machine to "set it up properly" then be my guest.

[E-Stat]

Setting up CD? Yes the dismissive answer - place CD player on a rack - connect CD player to amplifier with one of various connection options - turn CD player on, put CD in - listen to CD.

If you can point me to ANYTHING that tells users to open the box and fiddle with the internal workings of the machine to "set it up properly" then be my guest.

I would make a couple of suggestions (that are likely not what Sir T had in mind):

1. Place on roller bearing based isolation feet
2. Ensure unit is level
3. Use an optically absorbent mat like the Marigo product to minimize laser scatter.

[Feanor]

I would make a couple of suggestions (that are likely not what Sir T had in mind):

1. Place on roller bearing based isolation feet
2. Ensure unit is level
3. Use an optically absorbent mat like the Marigo product to minimize laser scatter.

Placing an aluminum foil cone over the player might help too.

OK, it's true that CDs can be misread by CD transports but the mystical improvements claimed by Marigo, (HERE), just aren't going to happen except in your imagination.

What I do is rip CDs using multi-pass reading, plus Accuraterip if it's available, (see HERE). Then playback from my WinVista computer using a "bit perfect" method such as ASIO or WASAPI. I haven't used my CD player in months, (at then it was for SACD).

[RGA]

I would make a couple of suggestions (that are likely not what Sir T had in mind):

1. Place on roller bearing based isolation feet
2. Ensure unit is level
3. Use an optically absorbent mat like the Marigo product to minimize laser scatter.

Yes such things are available - some of which is highly considered dubious. And I wonder how many of those same digital folks pay attention setting up the turntable in their comparisons. Most of them have never bothered to have a very good turntable to make their comparisons. Most of them at best had a stock Rega P2 with $50 MM cartridge.

Proper set-up of a turntable is critical. Using feet and mats for a CD player is dubious compared to cartridge alignment - and even playing a CD level is suspect in the sense that plenty of CD player designs play them sideways and work well. they're not high end models but they work - B&O and mega changers not to mention portable discman cd players and car decks which play while bouncing all over the road.

[E-Stat]

OK, it's true that CDs can be misread by CD transports but the mystical improvements claimed by Marigo, (HERE), just aren't going to happen except in your imagination.

Those of us who have actually used the product just smile to those speculations.

There is nothing "mystical" about reducing easily demonstrable laser glare. Try for yourself: shine a laser pointer through a CD. What do you see on the other side?

I also rip discs as well. The transport reads each sector as many times as it requires to get an accurate rip - NOT in real time. Sir T's observation is about CD players.

[Feanor]

Those of us who have actually used the product just smile to those speculations.

There is nothing "mystical" about reducing easily demonstrable laser glare. Try for yourself: shine a laser pointer through a CD. What do you see on the other side?
...

Smug-assed as usual.

I used Exact Audio Copy to rip CDs for a while. One of its virtues is that it would report errors or misreads that required reread or correction. The typical result for me, using my computer DVD burner, was about 3 per disc which usually a single pit (or bit). This would be fixed by any player's built-in error correction and be completely inaudible. The "huge" improvements touted for the Marigo are fanciful, (excepting, maybe, that you player is a total POS).

If your weary brain is concerned about laser glare, cut out a piece green, matt-finished paper and try that under you CD before you pop $200 on the Marigo.

[E-Stat]

Smug-assed as usual.

As opposed to the arrogance of you're somehow knowing exactly the effect of something completely outside your experience and ridiculing those who actually have? C'mon Bill!

Tell us about the experience of parachuting from an airplane. Ever done that? How do you think it feels to fall at 150 MPH? I'll be happy to share my experience.

This would be fixed by any player's built-in error correction and be completely inaudible.

Speculation IS you.

The "huge" improvements touted for the Marigo are fanciful, (excepting, maybe, that you player is a total POS).

Clearly with virtually all products, the sales department needs to inflate the apparent worth of whatever they're trying to sell. Like cables, the improvements are subtle and vary from disc to disc. It is an optimization for high resolution systems.

If your weary brain is concerned about laser glare, cut out a piece green, matt-finished paper and try that under you CD before you pop $200 on the Marigo.

In no other hobby do I find this much animosity towards performance enhancements.

Just amazing. The sad part is you'll never understand.

[Feanor]

As opposed to the arrogance of you're somehow knowing exactly the effect of something completely outside your experience and ridiculing those who actually have? C'mon Bill! ...

Study a little epistemology, Ralph. Nothing can be know with absolute certainty. But like God for instance, there are a few things we can say exist or don't exist with a high degree of probability.

...
In no other hobby do I find this much animosity towards performance enhancements.

Just amazing. The sad part is you'll never understand.

On the contrary. There are few hobbies where people are so susceptible to snake oil. What I do understand is that a lot of perceived sound differences are simply imaginary.

[E-Stat]

Study a little epistemology, Ralph. Nothing can be know with absolute certainty. But like God for instance, there are a few things we can say exist or don't exist with a high degree of probability.

Oooh, trying to squeeze in multiple jabs here. I'll pass on your religious views. Regarding the audio topic, that's exactly what Julian Hirsch would say!

On the contrary. There are few hobbies where people are so susceptible to snake oil. What I do understand is that a lot of perceived sound differences are simply imaginary.

That is a great illustration of the "Appeal to Ridicule" logical fallacy. Bravo!

Let's not attempt to discuss the issue at hand. Instead, we'll parade a jar of rocks as our evidence.

[JohnMichael]

Placing an aluminum foil cone over the player might help too.

OK, it's true that CDs can be misread by CD transports but the mystical improvements claimed by Marigo, (HERE), just aren't going to happen except in your imagination.

What I do is rip CDs using multi-pass reading, plus Accuraterip if it's available, (see HERE). Then playback from my WinVista computer using a "bit perfect" method such as ASIO or WASAPI. I haven't used my CD player in months, (at then it was for SACD).

I own and use the Sound Improvement Disc and the benefit to my ears is obvious. It is the type of product that you can not sit at home and read print and make up your mind. It needs to be heard. Another tweak I like is the cd lathe that trims the cd's to be a true circle. Bernd sent me both a standard cd and a trimmed cd. The trimmed cd was better sounding.

[Feanor]

...
That is a great illustration of the "Appeal to Ridicule" logical fallacy. Bravo!

Let's not attempt to discuss the issue at hand. Instead, we'll parade a jar of rocks as our evidence.

I have attempted to discuss the subject, e.g. mentioning the result of rips that indicate that one-disc errors are rare and that ordinary drives without special "set-up" can read discs with few problems.

But instead you sneeringly dismiss this object information, telling me that I ought to listen to my betters and that, in any case, will never understand. What a hypocrite!

To achieve the "huge" improvements these mats are claimed to achieve would require a continuous stream of errors from disc driver: I don't believe this happens. There is no more objective evidence that at these mats work as claimed that there is the Brilliant Pebbles work. Oh! you say you've hear improvements -- I'm sure you do -- so do the users of Brilliant Pebbles. Hearing is a psycho-acoustical phenomenon.

Pardon my skepticism -- or don't; all the same to me.

[E-Stat]

I have attempted to discuss the subject, e.g. mentioning the result of rips that indicate that one-disc errors are rare and that ordinary drives without special "set-up" can read discs with few problems.

In your world, there are no qualitative differences in transports. Bits are bits. Timing errors and jitter are completely inaudible. If they read the bits, there cannot possibly be any sonic difference.

Enjoy your Walkman. And your speculation.

[Feanor]

Yes such things are available - some of which is highly considered dubious. And I wonder how many of those same digital folks pay attention setting up the turntable in their comparisons. Most of them have never bothered to have a very good turntable to make their comparisons. Most of them at best had a stock Rega P2 with $50 MM cartridge.

Proper set-up of a turntable is critical. Using feet and mats for a CD player is dubious compared to cartridge alignment - and even playing a CD level is suspect in the sense that plenty of CD player designs play them sideways and work well. they're not high end models but they work - B&O and mega changers not to mention portable discman cd players and car decks which play while bouncing all over the road.

I'm with you on this one, RGA.

Analog pick-up benefits from getting as close to prefection as possible. Digital pick-up on the other had simply doesn't need to same perfection; the read system can either read the pit or it can't. If the pit is slightly imperfect, misshapen or misplaced, but the pick-up sees it, good enough. The proponents of these mats imply a continuous stream of misreads, either missing pits or inducing jitter: is there objective evidence of this? Is there objective evidence that the mats reduce this?

(One of the benefits to of ripping to computer files is that drive-induced jitter, such as there might be, is irrelevant.)

When we get into the realm of very small differences in sound as might be produced by, e.g. interconnects, power cables, isolation devices, speaker cables, opamps, and maybe, CD mats, I become very skeptical of audiphile testimonials. Personally I don't trust my own ears: plenty of times I've though I've heard a difference from such components but later concluded that I could discern no difference. I certainly don't trust other people's ears.

The differences from tube vs. solid state, or LP vs. digital, are typically an order of magnitude greater. No CD mat is going to make CD sound like vinyl.

[JohnMichael]

Using feet and mats for a CD player is dubious compared to cartridge alignment - .

I always thought that anything that enabled the laser to read the disc better thus reducing the need for error correction creates better sound. Much the same way you align the phono cartridge and set tracking force so the stylus can follow the groove maintaing good contact. My SID reduces laser scatter so the laser is more focused on the disc. A laser misreading a disc and a stylus that does not maintain contact with a groove are similar problems that require different solutions.

[tube fan]

Study a little epistemology, Ralph. Nothing can be know with absolute certainty. But like God for instance, there are a few things we can say exist or don't exist with a high degree of probability.



On the contrary. There are few hobbies where people are so susceptible to snake oil. What I do understand is that a lot of perceived sound differences are simply imaginary.

Yes, and that is why I advocate blind listening tests where those doing the rating of components are not aware of the specific unit they are rating. The exact same thing applies to wines. Famous, extremely costly wines or audio components will be rated much higher if done sighted versus blind. Look at Art Dudley's claim that rubbing some sort of cream on equipment resulted in better sound! talk about snake oil!

[Poultrygeist]

I'm sold on the combination of both ss and triodes in my multi-amping approach to OB.

[RGA]

tube fan

With your love in with Fremer because he "knows the absolute sound and hi-fi and accuracy" and hate for Art because Art likes musical instead of accuracy then I can't figure why you didn't like MBL.

Fremer on MBL

"Why belabor the point? No box above the bottom octaves and a 360° radiating pattern should produce imaging and soundstaging superior to that of any boxed or planar speaker, and once the speakers had been placed properly, the 101E Mk.IIs did just that, reproducing with eerie verisimilitude recordings of large orchestras as well as of small ensembles in intimate settings, such as a superb-sounding reissue of Johnny Hartman's I Just Dropped By to Say Hello (LP, Impulse!/ORG 176). The sound was intimate and properly sized, and produced Hartman's baritone with a natural warmth free of congestion or bloat."

Renders ALL panels and direct radiators like your speakers as piles of crap.

"The speakers' presentation of physical instruments and musicians in space required no suspension of disbelief—the holographically three-dimensional picture was just there."

"With all of these recordings, the MBLs produced as believable a rendering of the sound of a solo piano as you're likely to hear from any speaker"

"The Reference 101E Mk.II is among the most revealing speakers you're likely to hear. It ruthlessly reveals the sonic characters of the equipment it's hooked up to, which means that that system, including the cables, must be assembled with great care. It's also tricky to set up, and requires both an optimally sized room and careful placement in that room. Although my entire system has changed in the eight years since the first version of the 101E Radialstrahler was here, I feel confident saying that the sound of the Mk.II is more refined and well behaved, and far more capable of speaking with a uniform, focused voice. The combination of MBL's 6010D preamp and the 9011 amplifiers that I reviewed last month driving the 101E Mk.IIs was among the most formidable-sounding audio systems ever assembled in my room." MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com

But no - the Kef LS50 sounds better? Be serious.