Upgrading DVD to Bluray movies.

[nightflier]

I've found that the least expensive way to get new releases is to buy them used. Yes, there's a lot of bootlegged junk out there, but I've lined up a few fav sellers who've consistently provided near-new quality "new releases" (so I have to wait a few days); and they will be getting my repeat business. As for BR, I've got the PS3 sitting in my TV room, and well, since the rest of my gear isn't capable of 1080p, it's just been sitting there. It's a fine upconverting DVD player, I suppose, but right now I'm not ready to move in that direction yet. Decent game player, tho....

What Wooch said is also a bit discouraging since there are many movies I wouldn't mind seeing in BR (i.e. foreign films), but they likely won't make it there. So when I do make the move to BR, I suppose I'll buy new releases in that format instead of the DVD ones, no sense in not buying the latest if you have the gear. But this brings me back to what I said before, there is very little chance that people will be able to replace their whole collections with BR versions - the economics of re-releasing just won't permit it.

I'll also second what 'Sticks was saying: BR music, particularly formats like DTS MA - this is definitely intriguing to me. I've invested a lot in SACD over the years and the fact that there are no Universal BR players out there is pissing me off. I'm going to guess that the hi-def music industry is being pulled into to many format directions right now with no clear winner in sight. I also think they see BR as primarily a movie format and that they don't see BR becoming a music-only medium, at least not a profitable one. Ironically I've always kept my SACD player in my HT rack, even though the format has no video support - now it's that very video support that is keeping music-only BR from being considered viable.

As a side note, I also have a nice collection of concert DVDs, many of them far from likely to get a BR make-over because those bands just aren't going to compete with the new release numbers of Maria Carey and Hanna Montana (although the Legends of Jazz Showcase release is getting my hopes up). So what Wooch was saying about new releases trumping catalog releases, is exponentially true in the music sub-category. And if you're a poor shmuck who happens to like Jazz, classical, or foreign music well best of luck to ya.

And this brings me back to the threat to BR of downloads. This is especially the case with music since I see a lot of initiatives to offer high-res music from respected distributors. For those of us who already don't buy top-40 pop, we're already prepared to look elsewhere than the Target & BB music isles to get our music. Granted, it takes a long time to download a completely uncompressed symphony (I don't particularly enjoy the wait), but once I've downloaded it, I can recall it much faster than pulling out a CD, or an LP for that matter. Anyhow, I've gotten into the habit of creating download lists and queue things up to be downloaded in batches when I'm not around. I just don't see this as being very different from doing the same thing with movies. Yes, very little is available now, and no BR quality movies are available yet, but it's quite possible that hi-res music downloads will create a culture that will embrace this. Judging by how much people love NetFlix and Blockbuster, I think this is just around the corner. Maybe it's just the MP/RIAA that's keeping this from happening?

Is this the reason I am still on the fence about BR? You betcha. I'll be the first to extol the virtues of owning a tangible disk (yes, especially vinyl), but I'm too poor to jump with both feet into a format that may be supplanted very soon. The difficulties of replacing my movie collection with BR versions notwithstanding, the potential for new releases being all BR in my home is not certain at all.

[Woochifer]

I've found that the least expensive way to get new releases is to buy them used. Yes, there's a lot of bootlegged junk out there, but I've lined up a few fav sellers who've consistently provided near-new quality "new releases" (so I have to wait a few days); and they will be getting my repeat business.

That's definitely one way to go. Typically, I will buy them new the week of release, since most vendors have them on special at that time. The ones I don't like, I'll then sell to the stores that sell used DVDs.

As for BR, I've got the PS3 sitting in my TV room, and well, since the rest of my gear isn't capable of 1080p, it's just been sitting there. It's a fine upconverting DVD player, I suppose, but right now I'm not ready to move in that direction yet. Decent game player, tho....

I thought you already had a HDTV. If so, it doesn't really matter that you don't have 1080p, given that the PS3 will also output at 720p and 1080i. Either way, BR will be a big step up from upconverted DVD.

What Wooch said is also a bit discouraging since there are many movies I wouldn't mind seeing in BR (i.e. foreign films), but they likely won't make it there. So when I do make the move to BR, I suppose I'll buy new releases in that format instead of the DVD ones, no sense in not buying the latest if you have the gear. But this brings me back to what I said before, there is very little chance that people will be able to replace their whole collections with BR versions - the economics of re-releasing just won't permit it.

I did not predict that the studios would pare back on their catalog releases ... only that I don't see the same uptake in demand that we had with the DVD with catalog titles. In actuality, if Blu-ray takes off in a big way, that gives more incentive to the studios to unload their film libraries. They are already in the process of rescanning their film libraries in HD, since they have to do that anyway for HDTV broadcasts and archiving. The success of new releases on Blu-ray will support the studios' archiving efforts.

I'll also second what 'Sticks was saying: BR music, particularly formats like DTS MA - this is definitely intriguing to me. I've invested a lot in SACD over the years and the fact that there are no Universal BR players out there is pissing me off. I'm going to guess that the hi-def music industry is being pulled into to many format directions right now with no clear winner in sight. I also think they see BR as primarily a movie format and that they don't see BR becoming a music-only medium, at least not a profitable one. Ironically I've always kept my SACD player in my HT rack, even though the format has no video support - now it's that very video support that is keeping music-only BR from being considered viable.

It's not about Blu-ray being a music-only format. Blu-ray's importance rests with its high resolution audio that can simultaneously execute Java-based applications and output the digital audio stream via HDMI. SACD is handicapped by its hackneyed copy protection scheme, and the lack of native support for DSD on outboard processors.

As a side note, I also have a nice collection of concert DVDs, many of them far from likely to get a BR make-over because those bands just aren't going to compete with the new release numbers of Maria Carey and Hanna Montana (although the Legends of Jazz Showcase release is getting my hopes up). So what Wooch was saying about new releases trumping catalog releases, is exponentially true in the music sub-category. And if you're a poor shmuck who happens to like Jazz, classical, or foreign music well best of luck to ya.

Just because the market is driven by new releases does not mean that catalog titles won't continue to come out. Keep in mind that the DVD market was also driven by new releases, yet plenty of older titles continue to come out in all genres. All you need is a large installed user base, and the demand will be there. It doesn't take a huge number of units sold for a title to remain in print (not sure about home video, but the rule of thumb threshold for keeping CD titles in print was approximately 1,000 units/year). And if the DVD master was already transferred from a high definition archive, then you don't even need to create a new master -- it's just a new transfer using either H.264 or VC-1.

With jazz and classical titles in particular I can see plenty of uptake, because not only do you have the higher video resolution, but you also have 5.1 audio with 192/24 resolution possible.

And this brings me back to the threat to BR of downloads. This is especially the case with music since I see a lot of initiatives to offer high-res music from respected distributors. For those of us who already don't buy top-40 pop, we're already prepared to look elsewhere than the Target & BB music isles to get our music. Granted, it takes a long time to download a completely uncompressed symphony (I don't particularly enjoy the wait), but once I've downloaded it, I can recall it much faster than pulling out a CD, or an LP for that matter. Anyhow, I've gotten into the habit of creating download lists and queue things up to be downloaded in batches when I'm not around. I just don't see this as being very different from doing the same thing with movies. Yes, very little is available now, and no BR quality movies are available yet, but it's quite possible that hi-res music downloads will create a culture that will embrace this. Judging by how much people love NetFlix and Blockbuster, I think this is just around the corner. Maybe it's just the MP/RIAA that's keeping this from happening?

The obstacle is simply the public's need for instant gratification, and the limited pipeline in most household broadband services.

The copy protection issue is keeping a lot of high resolution music out of the download services. Until this issue gets cleared up, the download side will continue to err on the side of "good enough."

Is this the reason I am still on the fence about BR? You betcha. I'll be the first to extol the virtues of owning a tangible disk (yes, especially vinyl), but I'm too poor to jump with both feet into a format that may be supplanted very soon. The difficulties of replacing my movie collection with BR versions notwithstanding, the potential for new releases being all BR in my home is not certain at all.

Since you already have a Blu-ray player, the transition is pretty simple. The only obstacle would be if you currently watch DVDs in different places, and like to transport the discs around. Then, the choice would be whether you want to optimize your viewing for one location or if you'd rather have the transportability.

[nightflier]

I thought you already had a HDTV. If so, it doesn't really matter that you don't have 1080p, given that the PS3 will also output at 720p and 1080i. Either way, BR will be a big step up from upconverted DVD.

Ah, yes, but not all HDTVs are created equal. I was one of the first suckers to jump on the HDTV bandwagon and I bought too early (hence the reason I'm now much more careful). I have a Panasonic CRT that has several shortcomings:

- It's supposed to be 42", but really is only about 39" across
- It does not have a built-in HDTV tuner
- It only has component video inputs
- It does not support 720p

That last one is the killer, because even though I can get it to display 1080i using my Samsung HDTV tuner, it doesn't work with the PS3. While I have the component A/V cable, for some reason my TV will not display the 1080i signal (could be an HDCP thing, i dunno). So the best it can do is 480p, and then what's the point of buying or renting BR movies for me? I should also mention that when viewing standard DVDs, my current DVD player looks better than the PS3. And what's with the stupid remote nonsense, anyhow? Some marketing guy should have been fired over that asinine decision.

if Blu-ray takes off in a big way, that gives more incentive to the studios to unload their film libraries. They are already in the process of rescanning their film libraries in HD, since they have to do that anyway for HDTV broadcasts and archiving. The success of new releases on Blu-ray will support the studios' archiving efforts.

Yes, but the big "if" here is that BR would have to "take off in a big way." I think other delivery mediums are nipping at BR's heels.

It's not about Blu-ray being a music-only format. Blu-ray's importance rests with its high resolution audio that can simultaneously execute Java-based applications and output the digital audio stream via HDMI.

I don't think those who want to listen to a disk w/o having to plug in a TV to get the darned thing to play are interested in simultaneous Java-based applications. Interactivity via a video interface isn't wanted here.

Just because the market is driven by new releases does not mean that catalog titles won't continue to come out. Keep in mind that the DVD market was also driven by new releases, yet plenty of older titles continue to come out in all genres. All you need is a large installed user base, and the demand will be there. It doesn't take a huge number of units sold for a title to remain in print (not sure about home video, but the rule of thumb threshold for keeping CD titles in print was approximately 1,000 units/year). And if the DVD master was already transferred from a high definition archive, then you don't even need to create a new master -- it's just a new transfer using either H.264 or VC-1.

This still requires a certain threshold. Many titles just won't reach those market-profitable numbers. Take one of my favs, Buena Vista Social Club - will it ever appear on BR? I know it has sold more than 1000 units, perhaps even in its first year, but the chances of this nationally acclaimed bestseller title appearing on BR are slim. The same could be said for my RATM, JL Hooker, Floyd, or anything classical. Yes, I can find the Stones, Incubus, and Celine Dion, but let's be frank, it's slim pickins.

With jazz and classical titles in particular I can see plenty of uptake, because not only do you have the higher video resolution, but you also have 5.1 audio with 192/24 resolution possible.

You would think, but that's just not the case right now. I actually believe there is more interest in the high-def download services from companies like Naxos and Chandos, then in the BR medium.

I will even go out on a limb and suggest that BR is seen by audiophiles as a popular/maintream/average-consumer product that does not address the needs of music enthusiasts, especially those who listen to classical, foreign, and/or jazz. The fact that it is entirely a video-dominated product (the opposite of SACD), only re-enforces that belief.

The obstacle is simply the public's need for instant gratification, and the limited pipeline in most household broadband services.

I think the Netflix model disproves that. It has been hugely popular and it involves queuing up and waiting for one's entertainment to arrive. The culture of queuing and waiting is already here - downloading will actually be faster in the very near future.

The copy protection issue is keeping a lot of high resolution music out of the download services. Until this issue gets cleared up, the download side will continue to err on the side of "good enough."

That I agree with. But that is also keeping downloads of movies out of the mainstream. The studios are all too happy that the US does not have the download speeds that the Japanese have and it's my guess that they are actively working to keep it that way as long as possible. This is a perfect example of profit trumping technology.

I've also been saying for years that distributors should offer low-quality (128kb/s MP3 or less) but complete music for free as samples, and then make the customers pay for the higher-quality music. Back when Napster was all the rage, it was 128kb/s files that dominated the medium - had they capped it at that, the whole debate would now be over. Unfortunately, this has not been the view of the distributors and dim-minded artists like Metallica, Bono, Madona, and Dre.

Since you already have a Blu-ray player, the transition is pretty simple. The only obstacle would be if you currently watch DVDs in different places, and like to transport the discs around. Then, the choice would be whether you want to optimize your viewing for one location or if you'd rather have the transportability.

I only have two rooms with TV, and only one with surround, so I don't need the portability. What I do need is a new TV, pronto. But I've been focusing on my 2-channel audio system lately, so this has been relegated to the back-burner.

The PS3, by the way, I'm borrowing from my cousin because he prefers his Xbox (with HD-DVD player and lots of cheap movies) and has little use for his PS3 right now - funny how that works. If I did make the move to BR, I'd probably go with one of the new Denon players, maybe the Panasonic. Who knows, maybe Oppo might come out with one that will be competitive and as a bonus play SACDs - wouldn't that be a kick in the jewels for the other guys?

[Woochifer]

Ah, yes, but not all HDTVs are created equal. I was one of the first suckers to jump on the HDTV bandwagon and I bought too early (hence the reason I'm now much more careful). I have a Panasonic CRT that has several shortcomings:

- It's supposed to be 42", but really is only about 39" across
- It does not have a built-in HDTV tuner
- It only has component video inputs
- It does not support 720p

That last one is the killer, because even though I can get it to display 1080i using my Samsung HDTV tuner, it doesn't work with the PS3. While I have the component A/V cable, for some reason my TV will not display the 1080i signal (could be an HDCP thing, i dunno). So the best it can do is 480p, and then what's the point of buying or renting BR movies for me? I should also mention that when viewing standard DVDs, my current DVD player looks better than the PS3. And what's with the stupid remote nonsense, anyhow? Some marketing guy should have been fired over that asinine decision.

Have you gotten around to updating the firmware on the PS3? That unit's upscaling and output capability has become probably the most flexible on the market. Sir T just mentioned that the PS3's new noise reduction capabilities have dramatically improved the upscaled DVD image quality.

With a CRT HDTV, the native support is not as much of an issue because CRTs do not use fixed pixels and are therefore much more adept at rescaling than flat panels.

I don't think those who want to listen to a disk w/o having to plug in a TV to get the darned thing to play are interested in simultaneous Java-based applications. Interactivity via a video interface isn't wanted here.

As I've mentioned to you before, nothing precludes Blu-ray disc authors from simply implementing an auto-play option like you had with most DVD-As. Hit play and you hear music -- no video interface needed

But, the interactivity options with Blu-ray are also brand new for any high res audio format, who's to say that this won't change how people choose to listen to their music?

This still requires a certain threshold. Many titles just won't reach those market-profitable numbers. Take one of my favs, Buena Vista Social Club - will it ever appear on BR? I know it has sold more than 1000 units, perhaps even in its first year, but the chances of this nationally acclaimed bestseller title appearing on BR are slim. The same could be said for my RATM, JL Hooker, Floyd, or anything classical. Yes, I can find the Stones, Incubus, and Celine Dion, but let's be frank, it's slim pickins.

Why would you doubt that a hit movie like Buena Vista Social Club (whose soundtrack also went platinum) would make it onto Blu-ray? People were complaining about the "slim pickins" with the DVD as well in its early stages, yet here we are 10 years later with the number of available DVD titles closing in on 90,000.

You would think, but that's just not the case right now. I actually believe there is more interest in the high-def download services from companies like Naxos and Chandos, then in the BR medium.

The first Blu-ray music titles are only beginning to come out, so it's those specialty companies that are issuing the first Blu-ray music titles.

I will even go out on a limb and suggest that BR is seen by audiophiles as a popular/maintream/average-consumer product that does not address the needs of music enthusiasts, especially those who listen to classical, foreign, and/or jazz. The fact that it is entirely a video-dominated product (the opposite of SACD), only re-enforces that belief.

What makes you think that mainstream/average consumers are not "music enthusiasts"?

Once again you're prejudging and artificially segmenting the market based on preconceived stereotypes, despite the fact that Blu-ray has the highest resolution for both video and audio of any format currently available.

I think the Netflix model disproves that. It has been hugely popular and it involves queuing up and waiting for one's entertainment to arrive. The culture of queuing and waiting is already here - downloading will actually be faster in the very near future.

But, queing and waiting is only a small segment of the overall home video market, and if anything that's the first market that would be potentially impacted by downloading. Why do you think Netflix is trying to get its service onto every device out there?

The vast majority of the home video revenue comes from disc media sales, and until the pipelines for average households expands, downloads will remain as irrelevant as they currently are.

[johnny p]

Not to derail here, or add to the temptation, but for those who don't have them, the Amazon "deal of the day" is the 21 Movie collection James Bond films for $96 !!!!!!!! (I already have them on DVD, and hope to replace them all with Blu-ray one day)

[Spancticles]

need more choices
id replace more than 5%
but not most
maybe 50%

[nightflier]

Wooch, when Buena Vista Social Club, which should have met BR's 1000-copies-sold-to-meet-marketability criteria by a wide margin, makes it to BR, then maybe I'll be more optimistic about it. But then that bears the question, why isn't it available on BR yet? Or do Jazz titles need to reach a higher threshold? Maybe those BR folks are anti-jazz?

I'll throw out this morsel: maybe it's because it's got nothing to do with profitability thresholds, but with the movie as a whole. It, like a gazillion other movies out there has a nostalgic quality about it's "lower quality." Kind of like Cassablanca and Rio Bravo. Releasing them on super-high quality audio and video formats serves what purpose, exactly? This is why I maintain that the depth of the BR catalog will never even come close to that of DVD. Even if it just reaches profitability thresholds, the bad publicity from the fans could kill that margin. Remember all those "colorized" B&W movies? was that worth it? Who knows, but I do know you can buy some of these for $3.33 at Albertson's bargain bin.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, when Buena Vista Social Club, which should have met BR's 1000-copies-sold-to-meet-marketability criteria by a wide margin, makes it to BR, then maybe I'll be more optimistic about it. But then that bears the question, why isn't it available on BR yet?

Uh, maybe because the format is only about two years old? It took the DVD format about four years on the market before the installed user base grew large enough for less mainstream niche titles to begin streaming onto the market in earnest. Why would you think Blu-ray's any different?

Or do Jazz titles need to reach a higher threshold? Maybe those BR folks are anti-jazz?

Why would those titles require higher thresholds? Most jazz titles are issued by companies that specialize in issuing niche titles. That presumption would be as absurd as saying that jazz record labels require higher sales thresholds than major labels that issue pop releases.

I'll throw out this morsel: maybe it's because it's got nothing to do with profitability thresholds, but with the movie as a whole. It, like a gazillion other movies out there has a nostalgic quality about it's "lower quality." Kind of like Cassablanca and Rio Bravo. Releasing them on super-high quality audio and video formats serves what purpose, exactly?

Maybe because the companies that issue them see a buck to be made off of releasing them? Maybe because the installed user base for HDTV is now reaching critical mass?

All of the major studios have the rights to massive film libraries that require no more than some remastering and maybe some archival supplemental material to put out on DVD or Blu-ray. Releasing a library title requires minimal investment on the part of the studio, compared to new releases which require much more marketing and contractual clearances.

The approach will vary by studio. Warner tends to do a lot of clean up and remastering, and fill their classic releases with supplemental materials and bonus features. They do that in order to create additional demand for a title, and justify the higher list prices for many of their reissues. Other studios like Paramount tend to put releases out because they can, and will move units by coming in at a low price.

Your point about nostalgia makes no sense whatsoever. If people were nostalgic about lower picture quality, then they would presumably have kept their old VHS copies. And if there was no demand for higher quality releases, then why would Warner bother to issue many of their titles (which includes the classic MGM library) using a costlier transfer process that cleans up the image frame-by-frame?

This is why I maintain that the depth of the BR catalog will never even come close to that of DVD. Even if it just reaches profitability thresholds, the bad publicity from the fans could kill that margin.

Same used to be said of the DVD format compared to VHS. The part that you're ignoring is that HDTVs now comprise the majority of TV sales. The market is moving towards HD resolution, and the DVD does not offer that alternative.

I doubt that people will replace their DVD libraries en masse, but at the same time, the studios are not about to let their film libraries languish if there's an opportunity to move a few thousand units by simply transfering those movies over to Blu-ray. The studios are already remastering their film libraries for eventual HDTV broadcast, and transfering to Blu-ray would be yet another revenue stream to recoup that cost.

Remember all those "colorized" B&W movies? was that worth it? Who knows, but I do know you can buy some of these for $3.33 at Albertson's bargain bin.

What does this have to do with Blu-ray? Colorizing was basically Ted Turner's way of remarketing the MGM film library. He bought the rights to the library, and colorized the films to expand the market for those titles. But, before you go demonizing him for that, keep in mind that he also spent a good sum to restore the negatives (which needs to happen before you can colorize it), and start up the Turner Classic Movies channel, which for years was practically the only TV channel that would show widescreen movies in the letterbox format (and rarely, if ever, showed the colorized versions).

[Feanor]

I voted that I won't replace any DVDs with BluRays but truth is there is probably a handful I will. The bigger issue for me is when I should get a BluRay player and stop spending money on new titles on DVD I'm buying. So the question is >> when do I buy a BR player?

A while back I proposed that BR wouldn't go mass market until player prices dropped below $200. I doubt this will happen in 2008. Let me assert that this isn't a cost-of-production issue, it's a marketing issue. Both equipment manufacturers and content produces are still happy charging premium prices to folks will to pay for the premium product. Maybe this will change in another year or maybe it will never change. The marketers love stratification.

Haha Good for Sir T that he he doesn't care what his hobby cost. In principle neither do I, but I'm practically constrainted by lack of cash. Frankly for us an HDTV has got to come before a BR player -- we're still watching a 27" CRT. The wife and I have decided that in our space that a 46" will give us all the size we can use. Half-decent 46" 1080p plazmas have come down to Cdn$1400 or so. I was thinking October-November but now my son is talking PhD -- oh well.

At our house we have a modest collection of 500-600 or so DVDs. Most of these are rubbish bought cheap by my wife or else animé or horror flicks bought by my daughter. I'm trying to discourage purchases especially by my wife. My current viewing strategy is to rent from Zip.ca (like Netflicks); you can't beat $2.50 per movie with three people watching. This week's movie is No Country for Old Men, yum yum.