RIP David Carrdine

[kexodusc]

Yep. It looks like 3LB nailed it (pardon the pun).

Why would he do this? I mean, he's in Thailand, right? Surely, there was an easier way readily available.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/09060...le_us_thailand

No surviving spouse, child, parent, or friend should ever have to hear "he may have died from masturbation" or "auto-erotic accident".

[GMichael]

No surviving spouse, child, parent, or friend should ever have to hear "he may have died from masturbation" or "auto-erotic accident".

And have it be public knowledge.

[ForeverAutumn]

No surviving spouse, child, parent, or friend should ever have to hear "he may have died from masturbation" or "auto-erotic accident".

And have it be public knowledge.

I agree completely. I was actually thinking that while his wife was protesting that he couldn't have committed suicide, she may have been better off just going along with it. The details were bound to come out though.

It's easy to make jokes about the cause of death but what a horrible ordeal for his family.

[kexodusc]

Yep...at some point you wonder about the rights to privacy. Guess there are no such rights here, but as a human being I can't help but think maybe there should have been some discretion or judgement used to handle the flow of info delicately here....

[3LB]

his wife was protesting that he couldn't have committed suicide, she may have been better off just going along with it. The details were bound to come out though.

That reminds me of the interviews with Michael Hutchins father and/or brother, regarding his death, where both acted indignate and offended by accusations of suicide - one of even something to the effect that they thought it was slandering Michaels good name...and I'm sitting there thinking, "dude, he was found naked hanging by a doorknob...there ain't a whole lotta positive spins you can put on that".

I guess if we're truly fans of the guys who off themselves in this fashion, we shouldn't concern ourselves with how they died...but if this isn't a cautionary tale, I don't know what is.

[dean_martin]

right to privacy dies with individual. everyone clean up your mess on your way out.

I think a reaction by family that death wasn't a suicide is natural though. shame, guilt and blame may arise even though death is accidental, but those feelings are probably stronger...well, you get the point. this is a tough subject.

anyhow, from a practical, legal and heartless point of view, most life insurance policies have suicide exclusions.

[ForeverAutumn]

anyhow, from a practical, legal and heartless point of view, most life insurance policies have suicide exclusions.

I've worked in the life insurance industry for the last 20 years. The suicide exclusion is only for the first two years. At least on Canadian policies. It could be different on US policies.

[Smokey]

With Kung Fu, I'll admit that I've had mixed feelings over the years towards Carradine in the sense that his role rightfully belonged to Bruce Lee. The story goes that Lee had created the original concept for the show, but had it stolen from under him when the producers were adamant about not putting an Asian actor in the lead role. But, at the very least if they were going to use a non-Asian actor, go with someone who's somewhat close to Lee's prowess as a martial artist, which Carradine clearly was not.

Have to agree with you there Wooch. He wasn’t convincing in that role for me either. I am a big fan of Asian Kung Fu and Karate movies, and always thought what was the point of Kung Fu TV series if the lead actor is not Asian.

He was much better actor in American action movies such as Cannonball. One of the best cross country race movie.

[3LB]

the point of Kung Fu, was that his father was American and his mother was Chinese. He was taken into the Shaolin monastery because he was shunned by his Chinese relatives after he was orphaned. He was raised and trained as a Shaolin master but left in adulthood to escape execution for killing the Emperor's nephew (in retalliation for the Emperor's guards killing Master Po). The show was about his search for his family in America - which he eventually found. It was really just an updated twist on The Fugitive, and David Jansen's understated, pensative Richard Kimble was the template for the main character, to make Caine as sympathetic as possible.

before Master Po dies, Caine asks him,
"Master, please tell me finally, why do you call me Grasshopper?"

Master Po replies, "Because you are ugly...like insect", then dies.

or not

As for rumors of Bruce Lee being ripped off or reputedly turned down for the role, he would've been wrong for the part anyway, being much too intense a persona to play the mild mannered Caine, which suited Carradine to a tee. Moreover, Lee may have been less the icon he is now, because he may not have made all those movies in China. Lee's success in martial arts films and Kung Fu's success on Amercian TV fueled each other. However it was Lee that went on to be the icon he still is, while Carradine settled for 'B' movie roles, usually as the 'heavy' much of his career. Yes, he did some upper tier 'B' movie roles right after Kung Fu, but never was a major star...he might remained busy, but not much of his work beyond the '70s was all that memorable.

[Mr Peabody]

Wooch's comment and the story in general gives new meaning to "learning the ropes".

As we are being reflective, what about the woman who was cleaning the room who just happened to open the closet door?

[dean_martin]

I've worked in the life insurance industry for the last 20 years. The suicide exclusion is only for the first two years. At least on Canadian policies. It could be different on US policies.

that's the case here too - 2 years. What I find interesting is the amount of litigation over accidental death policies. It's hard to imagine there could be a question over whether someone died from suicide or an accident until you hear/read the circumstances surrounding the death. I was researching accidental death insurance cases a few years ago and found a case where the decedent died in a private plane crash. The insurance company denied the beneficiary's claim and defended the case on suicide.
Although the decedent was a passenger, the company contended that he must have done something to cause the plane to crash because of statements he made earlier and questionable business practices. Apparently he was about to get into serious trouble with the IRS or Securities Exchange Commission. The insurance company lost the case, but things aren't always as they appear.

I found many other examples such as a woman who died from rat poison. As it turned out, her husband put the rat poison near her medicine. She went into the room without turning on the light and picked up the wrong bottle.

[bobsticks]

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/...gacy-of-shame/




David Carradine’s Legacy of Shame
by Guest Contributor (and regular commenter) Atlasien

David Carradine was found dead yesterday in a hotel room in Bangkok. The circumstances of his death are outrageously sensationalistic. I won’t go into any detail other than to remark that these circumstances have helped ensure a steady barrage of media coverage. Just now, tuning into NPR in my car, I heard part of a David Carradine interview, replayed to commemorate the occasion of his death.

He was a famous and much-loved actor. Tributes to Carradine are pouring in. In discussion threads devoted to Carradine, you’ll find many nostalgic accounts of childhood evenings spent watching his TV show, Kung Fu.

Some Asian-Americans, such as myself, may find these tributes quite upsetting.

I remind myself that David Carradine was an actor. He was doing a job for money. It’s difficult to draw a work/life dividing line when it comes to celebrity actors, but the line does exist. And I cannot presume to judge the moral worth of David Carradine’s life. He was a human being whose life is just as worthy of respect, just as precious, as the life of any other human being.

But I can judge his career. **** David Carradine’s godawful racist career!
For many Asian-Americans, tributes to Carradine’s careeer feel like a cold and bitter insult. Bruce Lee was originally considered for the lead in Kung Fu, but the producers decided America was not ready for an Asian man as a heroic lead. David Carradine was chosen instead. His character, Kwai Chang Caine, was supposed to be half-Chinese and half-white. All the rest of the characters reacted to him as if he were Asian, when he was quite obviously 100% white. This confused the hell out of me when I first saw the show. Once I realized he was supposed to be Asian, it made me angry.

Why did I watch it in the first place? Well, Kung Fu was a pretty good show. It was plotted and shot and edited skillfully. It touched on important philosophical and cultural themes. It was ground-breaking, unique, and had some of the only respectful depictions of Asian culture available on American television in the 1970s. What were the alternatives? The servile, scraping, Hop Sing on Bonanza? Minor characters on M.A.S.H.? A scattered assortment of cackling Fu Manchu-type villains? It would be hard for Asian-Americans not to want to watch Kung Fu. But every time we watched it, we were reminded that it was possible for white people to take the best of what they wanted from Asian culture. Asian culture was mysterious and cool, but real Asian people were unwanted and superfluous. They could easily be replaced by the right kind of white man. And nobody remarked about it, nobody complained… at least it seemed that way.

I was very young when I saw reruns of Kung Fu, but I caught on quickly, and began to dread the sight of David Carradine’s face. I still have some fond memories of sequences that didn’t involve Carradine, such as the training sequences set in China. Then I stopped watching the reruns because the experience became too painful. Sitting there and watching was like… offering your body up to be erased. It’s hard to explain.

Anyway, it was an ignominious start to a career, and it went downhill from there. Carradine milked Kung Fu for as long as possible, and when the milk ran dry, he just squeezed harder, until blood dripped out of the metaphorical udders. He even did a series of Kung Fu workout videos. Quentin Tarantino capitalized on Kung Fu nostalgia by casting Carradine in that pretentious faux-ironic Asiaphile crapfest, Kill Bill. And a few years ago, Carradine did a series of Kung Fu-inspired Yellowbook.com commercials. Get it? Yellow Book? Wink wink, nudge nudge, vomit. In 2009, the heavily yellowfaced Carradine had a role in Crank 2 as a lecherous Chinese gangster named “Poon Dong”. Wink wink… and so on.

I don’t blame David Carradine for all the anti-Asian racism in America. But he had an important and highly visible role in a vicious feedback loop. Audiences identified with his performance of a calm, detached, self-important masculinity seemingly grounded in an exotic Asian tradition. He satisfied certain urges of the audience in that regard, and as he performed, he innovated, and created new and more refined stereotypes with extra layers of self-awareness and sophistication. His performances also worked to naturalize the desire of white people to appropriate the aspects of Asian culture they happened to find most appealing.

In a better world, Bruce Lee would have gotten the lead role in Kung Fu. It would have been a truly great show, not a merely good one. David Carradine would have gone on to other projects, and perhaps he would have become a great and versatile actor, meeting new challenges and truly acting instead of being frozen in the same stale role for decades. He was a man of many diverse talents and could have found fulfillment and success in other realms as well. If I continue much longer in this morbid vein I’ll write a full-fledged alternate history obituary, so I’ll stop… although I would have liked to say more good things about David Carradine’s impact on the world. But in all honesty, the way his choices affected my life turned out to be very negative, and I wish it didn’t have to end like that.

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting point of view. Now that I think about it, I don't think there really has been a leading Asian role program on American TV has there? Maybe, didn't the Korean comedian, I think her name is Cho, have a sitcom? He has a very good point about when a character would call Carradine a Chinaman in Kung Fu, I think every one wondered, what the hell are you talking about.

[3-LockBox]

Anti-asian? I don't think America is anti-asian - indifferent yes, but completely anti? No.

I'll defer to the actor who played Master Po, Key Luke, who defended Carradine's role in Kung Fu. Key Luke had stated in a TV interview (I believe it was the Tomorrow Show) that Kung Fu advanced the image and employment of Asians in Amercia moreso than any other film or TV show. I guess it does depend on your point of view.

[bobsticks]

Anti-asian? I don't think America is anti-asian - indifferent yes, but completely anti? No.

Well, in the indifference is all the juice of the argument. While I'm usually loathe to acknowledge arguments of victimization, this one may have some merit. If you're not gonna cast a character of the proper national origin why not at least recognize the oh-so-obvious Occidental nature of the protagonist? I'm just sayin'...

[Woochifer]

As for rumors of Bruce Lee being ripped off or reputedly turned down for the role, he would've been wrong for the part anyway, being much too intense a persona to play the mild mannered Caine, which suited Carradine to a tee. Moreover, Lee may have been less the icon he is now, because he may not have made all those movies in China. Lee's success in martial arts films and Kung Fu's success on Amercian TV fueled each other. However it was Lee that went on to be the icon he still is, while Carradine settled for 'B' movie roles, usually as the 'heavy' much of his career. Yes, he did some upper tier 'B' movie roles right after Kung Fu, but never was a major star...he might remained busy, but not much of his work beyond the '70s was all that memorable.

I don't think Lee would have been wrong for the role, given that he purportedly developed the role for himself. The changes to the concept for the show were done so that they could plausibly cast a white actor in the lead role (even by that time, the old practice of painting slant eyes and fu manchu facial hair on white actors had fallen out of favor). With Lee in the lead role, it would have been a different show, but he also would have played the character differently than how he portrayed the leads in his feature films. Lee was a child actor in Hong Kong, and he has more range than his feature films demonstrate.

Funny how fate intervenes, because Lee could never have gone onto superstardom and iconic status without leaving Hollywood and returning to Hong Kong (not part of China at that time; also remember that Lee was born in San Francisco). But, fate goes both ways, because might not have pushed himself to the brink the way he did leading up to his death had he remained in Hollywood slogging away on a weekly TV series.

[Woochifer]

Anti-asian? I don't think America is anti-asian - indifferent yes, but completely anti? No.

From my vantage point, it not completely anti, but it ain't completely indifferent either.

I'll defer to the actor who played Master Po, Key Luke, who defended Carradine's role in Kung Fu. Key Luke had stated in a TV interview (I believe it was the Tomorrow Show) that Kung Fu advanced the image and employment of Asians in Amercia moreso than any other film or TV show. I guess it does depend on your point of view.

Does depend on the point of view, and it has been a huge point of debate among Asian-American actors. Do they choose to take the degrading/subservient roles offered to them, or do they stand on their principles and not work? Are the actors who take these roles sellouts or are they pragmatic? Many essays, plays, and films have been made about this very topic. Within the Asian-American theater and film world, this topic is front and center.

Believe me, David Carradine does not inspire nearly as much ire or venom among Asian-Americans as Gedde Watanabe (of Sixteen Candles fame/infamy) does.

David Carradine’s Legacy of Shame
by Guest Contributor (and regular commenter) Atlasien

I don't agree with all of the article's points. But, the undercurrent resentments reflected in that article are very real among many Asian-Americans who grew up in the U.S. during that period.

[Woochifer]

Well, in the indifference is all the juice of the argument. While I'm usually loathe to acknowledge arguments of victimization, this one may have some merit. If you're not gonna cast a character of the proper national origin why not at least recognize the oh-so-obvious Occidental nature of the protagonist? I'm just sayin'...

I think for that time, they were looking for any angle by which they could cast a white actor in the lead role without resorting to the ridiculous make up tricks the movie studios historically used to turn white actors into Asian characters. My main beef with Kung Fu is that in Carradine, they chose an unqualified actor for the lead role. He had no martial arts training, and his screen presence was nowhere near that of Bruce Lee. But, he wasn't Asian, so I guess that was good enough.

[Mr Peabody]

Are you sure Carradine didn't have any martial arts training? He was in Lone Wolf Mcquaid with Chuck Norris and looked pretty good and same with Circle of Iron.

With the reference to the guy in 16 Candles, he was hilarious. There's a thin line between being able to make fun of one's self and being insulting. Maybe it's in how you look at it. Just like occasionally you see some organization up in arms because a blind or cripple guy was made fun of in some role. I certainly do not think all, or maybe any, Asians act like the guy in 16 Candles. Sometimes people need to lighten up. What would happen if Black or Hispanic comedians couldn't make fun of their own people, the guys would be out of a job, at least in comedy. I wonder what Asians thought of that detergent commercial that used to run all the time, was that Tide? The "ancient Chinese secret".

[Woochifer]

Are you sure Carradine didn't have any martial arts training? He was in Lone Wolf Mcquaid with Chuck Norris and looked pretty good and same with Circle of Iron.

At the time he was cast as Caine, Carradine had no martial arts training of any kind. His background was in dance (and even there, Bruce Lee probably had him beat, since Lee was also championship caliber ballroom dancer).

With the reference to the guy in 16 Candles, he was hilarious.
There's a thin line between being able to make fun of one's self and being insulting. Maybe it's in how you look at it.

It's all about the point of view. Most Asian-Americans I know certainly did not find it "hilarious," though some of the younger Asian-Americans now like to lampoon that character because they find it so over-the-top stupid. There's also a huge difference between making fun of one's self and bringing someone else's demeaning stereotype to life, which was the case in Sixteen Candles, since none of the writers on that movie were Asian or intended to bring anything into that role other than reviving caricatures that had existed for decades. Kinda like the difference between you making fun of your own mother, and someone else making fun of your mother.

I certainly do not think all, or maybe any, Asians act like the guy in 16 Candles. Sometimes people need to lighten up.

And sometimes people need to see the reasoning behind why someone of a certain ethnic group would take offense to someone else's definition of humor. If you find it funny, more power to you, but don't start judging how others should react to it.

What would happen if Black or Hispanic comedians couldn't make fun of their own people, the guys would be out of a job, at least in comedy.

Not the same thing because they are making fun of themselves, and they are usually writing their own jokes. With Gedde Watanabe, he was simply reading a script written for him. I suppose it was a step forward that the studios actually hired an Asian actor for the role, rather than simply slapping some coke bottle glasses and bucked teeth on a white actor and telling him slur his "L" sounds as "R"s.

I wonder what Asians thought of that detergent commercial that used to run all the time, was that Tide? The "ancient Chinese secret".

It's not exactly the same thing as the Long Duk Dong character, given that the characters in that detergent commercial were not depicted as ethnic caricatures. At the time, I recall that much of the reaction was simple surprise that something on American TV actually portrayed regular Chinese-Americans who spoke non-broken English.

[3-LockBox]

I also remember in another interview Key Luke saying he took major flack from the Chinese-American community for sticking with the Charlie Chan movies, even after protests from the community (two seperate Amercian white actors played Chan over the course of several movies). Luke said looking back on the films they may seem racist, but he thought Chan was always played with dignity and of his own role as 'Number One Son' Lee Chan, he portrayed a modern Chinese-American who spoke perfectly current Amercianized english, which was miles ahead of how the Chinese were portrayed in those days. He said it might not have been perfect but still, he thought it was important to see Chinese characters portrayed in a positive light, rather than the stereotypical Chinese characters of the day. Of course, he may have been in the minority in that sentiment. Many discredit any positive spin on the Lee Chan character noting he only served as comic relief and not a leading role.

Still, its a perspective thing. I came away from watching Kung Fu having a newfound respect for the Chinese culture and wanting to see more, and that was usually in the form of a martial arts movie, which ironically established a different, not-so positive stereotype for the Chinese culture. As long as it isn't a subserviant stereotype, I guess its OK.

Kung Fu portrayed Chinese immigrants as hard working, spiritual people who faced a great deal of prejudice and persevered with their dignity intact. I'd hate to think the notion of Carradine in the lead role denigrates the work of all the Asian-Amercian actors who worked on that show, portraying Asian immigrants with the level of humanity that had not been portrayed in American culture up to that point (I'd think the TV show MASH would draw more cirticism than Kung Fu) Its a strange hill to die on, all things considered. It wasn't perfect, but it was a step in the right direction and leaps and bounds ahead many other TV show that came afterwards.

[Woochifer]

I also remember in another interview Key Luke saying he took major flack from the Chinese-American community for sticking with the Charlie Chan movies, even after protests from the community (two seperate Amercian white actors played Chan over the course of several movies). Luke said looking back on the films they may seem racist, but he thought Chan was always played with dignity and of his own role as 'Number One Son' Lee Chan, he portrayed a modern Chinese-American who spoke perfectly current Amercianized english, which was miles ahead of how the Chinese were portrayed in those days. He said it might not have been perfect but still, he thought it was important to see Chinese characters portrayed in a positive light, rather than the stereotypical Chinese characters of the day. Of course, he may have been in the minority in that sentiment. Many discredit any positive spin on the Lee Chan character noting he only served as comic relief and not a leading role.

And Keye Luke kind of encapsulates the dilemma facing Asian-American actors. He took on a multitude of roles, most of which were indeed ethnic caricatures or subservient roles. He got the work because he agreed to take on those roles. Other actors who refused to play those types of characters often did not find work in Hollywood. That's why Asian-American theater and cinema exists - to provide a venue for writers and actors who want a more diverse range of roles and storylines.

Still, its a perspective thing. I came away from watching Kung Fu having a newfound respect for the Chinese culture and wanting to see more, and that was usually in the form of a martial arts movie, which ironically established a different, not-so positive stereotype for the Chinese culture. As long as it isn't a subserviant stereotype, I guess its OK.

Kung Fu portrayed Chinese immigrants as hard working, spiritual people who faced a great deal of prejudice and persevered with their dignity intact. I'd hate to think the notion of Carradine in the lead role denigrates the work of all the Asian-Amercian actors who worked on that show, portraying Asian immigrants with the level of humanity that had not been portrayed in American culture up to that point (I'd think the TV show MASH would draw more cirticism than Kung Fu) Its a strange hill to die on, all things considered. It wasn't perfect, but it was a step in the right direction and leaps and bounds ahead many other TV show that came afterwards.

That's why I indicated that I have mixed feelings over that show and Carradine's role. Indeed, the show provided work for Asian-American actors, and the roles were a far cry from the genuinely demeaning parts that were typically offered. And here was more balance in the depiction of Asian immigrants in the old west. I don't blame Carradine one bit for taking that role.

Bruce Lee very well might have been just another TV actor if he had actually gotten the Kung Fu role.