A DVD REVIEW: JURASSIC PARK III - COLLECTOR'S EDITION (Universal)

[kelsci]

Hi Lex; Another DVD that was released by Universal in EX sound and not labled as such was THE MUMMY RETURNS. In thinking of what you wrote regarding labeling for EX-ES center back sound, you are correct that any film containing this sound and transferred to DVD should be so labled. I think the perfect example of EX-ES labeling was GLADIATOR. I think some NEW LINE releases were also labled appropriately as well.

I had to replace a 4 inch woofer today; when I put the speaker on an ohmeter, instead of 7.5 ohms, I got flurtacious readings all over the meter scale. I thought for some time that something was wrong somewhere with my system. Finally, the speaker started going on and off and gave itself away. Everything is working fine now.

I remember that you had some problem with the concept of center back surround sound. I remember some time ago trying to explain it to you. I think there is a simple self-explanatory aide that can help you. Go to your PHANTOM MENACE disc. When the menu comes up, go to OPTIONS. At the top of the OPTIONS screen, you need to get the THX OPTIMIZER to light up. Once that is lit up, press the appropriate button on your remote and a screen will appear indicating audio and video tests. Have the audio tests come up. The first diagram that appears has all the speakers for a complete 5.1 system including speakers for the center back channel. Have the audio test begin on that particular diagram. Each speaker in the diagram will give a white noise test tone to your own systems speakers. There is a center back test tone on that THX diagram. Personally listen for that particular tone relative to the surround field in your listening room. I hope this helps. Kelsci.

[Lexmark3200]

"Hi Lex"

Hi, my good friend! Welcome back to the JURASSIC PARK III discussion! You know, I watched this DVD again today, after all the conversations we have been having about it, and it simply justified my feelings regarding this DTS mix.....MAN is this mix loud, obnoxiously bass filled and just downright demo quality to my ears.....the LFE whenever a dinosaur was stomping around the screen shook my walls like nobody's business; the only complaint I had about it, upon further scrutiny, was that the dialogue----as I am finding on way too many releases----was horrendously low as compared to the action here; something that is not too common a characteristic for Digital Theater System soundtracks.

"Another DVD that was released by Universal in EX sound and not labled as such was THE MUMMY RETURNS"

Yes, unfortunately I know. Warner ALSO did not label THE PERFECT STORM as a Dolby EX mix, which it was......

"In thinking of what you wrote regarding labeling for EX-ES center back sound, you are correct that any film containing this sound and transferred to DVD should be so labled. I think the perfect example of EX-ES labeling was GLADIATOR. I think some NEW LINE releases were also labled appropriately as well."

Yes----GLADIATOR CLEARLY and BOLDLY proclaims the DTS ES DISCRETE soundtrack hyperbole right on the cover and side of the box; DreamWorks plays no games with their DTS releases----they did the same with THE HAUNTING's DTS ES Signaure Series disc, where the DTS ES DISCRETE logo was boldly labeled as such. Great catch by your eyes!

"I had to replace a 4 inch woofer today; when I put the speaker on an ohmeter, instead of 7.5 ohms, I got flurtacious readings all over the meter scale. I thought for some time that something was wrong somewhere with my system. Finally, the speaker started going on and off and gave itself away. Everything is working fine now."

Are you talking about when demoing Jurassic Park III?

"I remember that you had some problem with the concept of center back surround sound. I remember some time ago trying to explain it to you. I think there is a simple self-explanatory aide that can help you. Go to your PHANTOM MENACE disc. When the menu comes up, go to OPTIONS. At the top of the OPTIONS screen, you need to get the THX OPTIMIZER to light up. Once that is lit up, press the appropriate button on your remote and a screen will appear indicating audio and video tests. Have the audio tests come up. The first diagram that appears has all the speakers for a complete 5.1 system including speakers for the center back channel. Have the audio test begin on that particular diagram. Each speaker in the diagram will give a white noise test tone to your own systems speakers. There is a center back test tone on that THX diagram. Personally listen for that particular tone relative to the surround field in your listening room. I hope this helps"

Kel, I dont own Phantom Menace but I do own ATTACK OF THE CLONES, in which there is also a THX optimizing sequence on the menu; but I cannot recall if this test will indicate any "phantom back" imaging going on......

Thanks for your thoughts, good friend!

[kelsci]

Hi Lex; The raw speaker that I replaced was for my right satellite unit. JP111 was not the cause of it blowing. The raw speaker comes from Partsexpress. The speaker is made in China. The reliability of these speakers are so-so. They are rated 40 watt RMS which is the "real" power of the Sherwood 6095R receiver. It is funny, but after I replaced that speaker, I used JP111 to check my systems imaging since JP111 has both D.D. and DTS. Yes, that movie certainly has quite a bit of earthshaking dinosaur stomping in it and in fact all the sound effects in it is done very well. I found the dialogue reproduction on both tracks to be ok. Perhaps you need a slight boost in the center channel. My unit goes from minus 15 to plus 15. I have it set on minus seven. I can set it up one notch to minus six if I desire to receive more dialogue emphasis without killing the stereo-surround sound field. This low dialogue issue is quite real. I think I have the solution to it, though many might not like what I might suggest since the result means the system becomes very "sweet spot". That would be to add dialogue in the left and right front speakers. I base this on my experiences with the Dynaquad passive surround matrix system I use to deploy.

I have THE HAUNTING but only in D.D. There is no mention of D.D.-EX on the packaging.

Lex, you can do the test I mentioned with the THX optimizer on the ATTACK OF THE CLONES disc too. When you get a chance, give it a shot. Good luck. Kelsci.

[Lexmark3200]

"The raw speaker that I replaced was for my right satellite unit. JP111 was not the cause of it blowing"

Whew.

"Yes, that movie certainly has quite a bit of earthshaking dinosaur stomping in it and in fact all the sound effects in it is done very well. I found the dialogue reproduction on both tracks to be ok. Perhaps you need a slight boost in the center channel."

My center channel is already running THREE decibels higher than the rest of the channels; I think there is a soft dialogue problem running through MY specific library of discs!

"My unit goes from minus 15 to plus 15. I have it set on minus seven. I can set it up one notch to minus six if I desire to receive more dialogue emphasis without killing the stereo-surround sound field."

Well, mine goes from -12 to +12 and I have the center on PLUS NINE right now, and the dialogue tracks are still low. I am not going to do any further boosting. I cant believe you are getting good response from your settings being in the NEGATIVE column.

"This low dialogue issue is quite real."

I am THRILLED someone else recognizes this. It even happens in theaters.

"I think I have the solution to it, though many might not like what I might suggest since the result means the system becomes very "sweet spot". That would be to add dialogue in the left and right front speakers. I base this on my experiences with the Dynaquad passive surround matrix system I use to deploy."

Yeah, I think most folks would judge against doing this, although when I run ANY digital encoded soundtrack, my receiver automatically drops the dialogue into the center channel, and appropriate effects into the surrounds.

"I have THE HAUNTING but only in D.D. There is no mention of D.D.-EX on the packaging."

You NEED.....absolutely NEED....to get this title in DTS ES format because your entire house will come apart from the bass....its out of print, but you can probably find it online somewhere.

"Lex, you can do the test I mentioned with the THX optimizer on the ATTACK OF THE CLONES disc too. When you get a chance, give it a shot. Good luck."

And what exactly am I listening for again?

Thanks Kel!

[kelsci]

Hi Lex; On that AUDIO part of the THX OPTIMODE test has a white noise test of the left-center-right-left rear surround-center back surround-and right rear surround. Pay particular attention when the on-screen diagram tests the center back surround speakers with white noise. Even though you do not have a center back surround speaker in operation, the center back sound will reproduce inself from the left and right rear surrounds. You should hear the white noise in the center between those two surround speakers. If that is what you hear, you have now heard phantom EX sound. As I am typing this thread to you, I have the Optimode test on. The onscreen display coordinates with white noise segments through each speaker. A display SURROUND BACK CHANNEL(S) will show. That is what you are listening for. You can also jump to the fourth test. This has an in-phase/out of phase test of the surround back channels. Note the position of the in-phase white noise test in your listening area. Try it, Lex. I hope it is the path to at least having an idea what is going on with this phenomena.

{Well, mine goes from -12 to +12 and I have the center on PLUS NINE right now, and the dialogue tracks are still low. I am not going to do any further boosting. I cant believe you are getting good response from your settings being in the NEGATIVE column.}

{"This low dialogue issue is quite real."}

Wow Lex. I do not know what to say. I think there is some kind of problem here. All I can say is that I do not use a SPL meter. I did own one. I could not even begin to write or even discuss the things that I have found out in owning electronics and its peculiarities. I have my own way of setting up a stereo-surround field which does work. The -6 setting that I use is giving me good dialogue reproduction on every disc that I play. My hearing is not even anything like it used to be yet I still can make out the dialogue quite fine. Plus 9 and your dialogue sounds low. I know that Onkyo is a damm good receiver. The first thing that comes to my mind is a center channel problem within the receiver or the center channel loudspeaker you are using. If you have access to a ohmeter, I would disconnect my wires and set the ohmeter to its lowest range. Place the red probe wire of the meter into the speaker plus terminal/black probe wire in the minus terminal. What you would be looking for is a reading of somewhere between 6 to 8 ohms. If you get spurious ohm readings like I described with the bad speaker I just replaced like 50, l00,200etc. there is a bad driver. If not, you have a weakness in the center channel processing of your receiver which might encompass decoding or something causing weak power in that center channel. There would be no surprise that you would be thinking that there was a dialogue problem with a lot of discs. I still however do not dispute the fact about low dialogue in discs and it is a issue. I have two recievers in my room; an older JVC 718 DPL 4X100 watter and the Sherwood 6095R D.D.-DTS 5.1 which from what I read is really a 40 watter X 5, regardless of what Sherwood has stated. JVC settings are factory set on left and right; minus 1 on center and plus one on the rear surrounds(the fourth channel is split between the two rear surround speakers). Sherwood settings are Left and Right -0- ; center minus 6 and each surround at -4.

I have not been quite right mentally for some time so I forget some of the ideas that I have had. I have another center channel solution. Most of us use a D'Appolito designed center channel set up as a woofer-tweeter-woofer. What I think we need is a better D'Appolito with a woofer-midrange-tweeter-midrange-woofer set-up. There used to be a sight called E-town on the web. I presented this. I think it was the noted journalist, Brent Butterworth, who said that you would end up with a "lobing" effect. I believe that this would not be the case and might solve alot of the dialogue problems. The Dynaco Dynaquad circuit taught me alot of knowledge.

As far as theaters go, as long as I can remember, there were areas of low dialogue in just about any movie I saw in a theater. Sometimes it was so low, that I fell asleep.

Lex; I wish you luck with anything that you might try. Kelsci.

[Lexmark3200]

"Hi Lex; On that AUDIO part of the THX OPTIMODE test has a white noise test of the left-center-right-left rear surround-center back surround-and right rear surround. Pay particular attention when the on-screen diagram tests the center back surround speakers with white noise. Even though you do not have a center back surround speaker in operation, the center back sound will reproduce inself from the left and right rear surrounds. You should hear the white noise in the center between those two surround speakers. If that is what you hear, you have now heard phantom EX sound."

Gotcha. I will try that when I get home.

"As I am typing this thread to you, I have the Optimode test on. The onscreen display coordinates with white noise segments through each speaker. A display SURROUND BACK CHANNEL(S) will show. That is what you are listening for. You can also jump to the fourth test. This has an in-phase/out of phase test of the surround back channels. Note the position of the in-phase white noise test in your listening area. Try it, Lex. I hope it is the path to at least having an idea what is going on with this phenomena."

Thank you.

"Wow Lex. I do not know what to say. I think there is some kind of problem here."

Seriously? Even though you suspected that the low dialogue problem may indeed just be inherent in cinema itself?

"All I can say is that I do not use a SPL meter."

Oh boy.......

"The -6 setting that I use is giving me good dialogue reproduction on every disc that I play."

As was I THOUGHT the "+9" setting was giving me.......

"My hearing is not even anything like it used to be yet I still can make out the dialogue quite fine. Plus 9 and your dialogue sounds low."

Dont get me wrong now-----its not HORRENDOUSLY low where you cant make anything out, but it seems lower in the overall mix.

"I know that Onkyo is a damm good receiver."

Yes, thank you.

"The first thing that comes to my mind is a center channel problem within the receiver or the center channel loudspeaker you are using."

I dont think either, but we can suspect; this is a good, solid Polk center Im running.

"I still however do not dispute the fact about low dialogue in discs and it is a issue."

Thank God......

"As far as theaters go, as long as I can remember, there were areas of low dialogue in just about any movie I saw in a theater. Sometimes it was so low, that I fell asleep."

Makes me feel A LITTLE better......

"Lex; I wish you luck with anything that you might try."

Thank you my good friend, and I wish you good health, as well.......

[musicman1999]

wow your center is set at +9.
just curious about what your other channels are set at?
+9 seems way to high.
my settings are
l&r front 0
front center -1
l surroud -2
r surround -3
rear center -5
sub +3
the back of my room is obviously an odd shape and seating is close to rear speakers

bill