Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: DTS & UNIVERSAL

  1. #1
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    cincinnati, ohio
    Posts
    74

    Cool DTS & UNIVERSAL

    Can anyone tell me what's the deal with universal DVD's ? this was the studio that help put DTS on the map in 93 with jurassic park, hard target. and in the mid to late 90's with laserdisc adding in DTS with alot of movie titles from universal ( timecop, sudden death, apollo 13 etc.) now there are some that have DTS tracks, but what about titles like( van helsing, the hulk, the mummy, the mummy returns ) these DVD's do have solid DD tracks. but i would like the option of both DD & DTS.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    Seems like the same dilemma with every other studio -- is there enough space to add a DTS soundtrack after all the other stuff is included? With a single-disc, you don't have a lot of room for bonus features with both DD and DTS soundtracks included, especially since Universal might also add 5.1 French and Spanish DD tracks. Considering that Universal partly owns DTS, I am actually surprised that they don't incorporate the feature into more of their releases.

    But, it would seem that someone over at Universal concluded that consumers would rather have the bonus material than a DTS soundtrack if the DVD gets released as a single-disc. And Universal is one of the stingier studios when it comes to two-disc DVD releases. You might have to hope that some of these single-disc releases get a special edition re-release sometime in the future, but even there, the new edition might actually eliminate the DTS soundtrack (like the new editions of The Fast and the Furious and The Bourne Identity did, although these new editions were still single disc and the DTS soundtracks got bumped so that the studio could toss in some new sequel promos).

    Universal does still put out DTS soundtracks (the new edition of Jaws is a two-disc set with a DTS soundtrack), but the releases are definitely not as frequent as before.

    Just so you know The Mummy does have a DTS soundtrack available, but you have to look for the two-disc Ultimate Edition DVD, which I believe is now out of print. Some stores might still have copies left on their shelves.

  3. #3
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Gotta agree here. I hate movies that are loaded with useless pre-views. I don't pay for commercials. Personally I find 90% of bonus features a disgusting waste of time, effort, and space.

    In the end I think it's a cost thing, single disc DVD's just don't have the space, and double-disc units often fetch a premium. Too bad. I like how Gladiator did it...bonus features on the 2nd DVD, good stuff on the first.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    50

    The drawback of the mass market

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    But, it would seem that someone over at Universal concluded that consumers would rather have the bonus material than a DTS soundtrack if the DVD gets released as a single-disc. .
    All too true. One thing I miss in the good old days of laser discs was the studios knew that pretty much only true film buffs bought laser discs and that they appreciated a quality picture and sound. That's why they paid $40 for a laser disc instead of buying VHS! And bonus materials, while not as common as on DVD, were generally higher quality when they were offered.

    Unfortunately, things like "director's cut" or "unedited cut" or "bonus materials added" are more just marketing ploys than features that really enrich the film nowadays. My director's cut versions on my laser discs are few and far between, but are real gems like Aliens, The Abyss, T2, Bladerunner, The Godfather Trilogy, and Fatal Attraction. Now these versions genuinely offer a different vision of a film--even different endings!--as opposed to just heaping stuff from the cutting room floor into the flick. Do we really need a director's cut of Boogeyman 2 and Supergirl?

  5. #5
    Resident DVD Reviewer
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    1,202
    As being a professional disc reviewer I MUST say THIS about Universal lately: their marketing objective just plain CONFUSES me.....MY biggest complaint about the studio is that they drop DTS mixes on things like MEET THE PARENTS and MEET THE FOCKERS while giving titles like VAN HELSING and DAWN OF THE DEAD Dolby Digital tracks......yet, in their past they have dropped awesome DTS mixes on things like U571, Apollo 13 and The Mummy.....they recently put a DTS mix on ALONG CAME POLLY, yet RE-RELEASED A SPECIAL IMAX EDITION of Apollo 13 and REMOVED THE DTS TRACK FROM THAT....

    I'd like to know what they are smoking over there so I can get some of it.....honest......

    Great topic!

  6. #6
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Gotta agree here. I hate movies that are loaded with useless pre-views. I don't pay for commercials. Personally I find 90% of bonus features a disgusting waste of time, effort, and space.

    In the end I think it's a cost thing, single disc DVD's just don't have the space, and double-disc units often fetch a premium. Too bad. I like how Gladiator did it...bonus features on the 2nd DVD, good stuff on the first.
    I actually like a lot of the bonus features, especially the making-of features, trailers, and sometimes features that go beyond the movie like the John Glenn documentary that came with The Right Stuff: SE, or the PBS "Battle Over Citizen Kane" documentary that came with the Citizen Kane DVD, or the Bugs Bunny cartoon and vintage newsreels that came with The Adventures of Robin Hood, or the groundbreaking 1902 silent film A Trip to the Moon that came with Around the World in 80 Days, or the History Channel's "True Crime Authors" documentary on author/screenwriter Nicholas Pileggi that came with the anniversary edition of Casino.

    A lot of what drives these decisions on disc content also comes down to price. Gladiator had one of the best 6.1 DTS ES soundtracks included with the original 2-disc release. When Gladiator got rereleased as a budget DVD, Dreamworks eliminated the second disc and the DTS soundtrack, and moved only a few of the special features onto the single DVD. The list price did get lowered by $10. For all the complaining that people do about studios "double dipping" with special editions, I think there's just as much decontenting going on, and IMO that trend is a lot worse because you're taking high quality DVD editions and stripping them down by eliminating DTS soundtracks and the special features.

    I think the biggest ripoff is when studios re-release a DVD and decontent the disc in order to insert sequel trailers. The so-called "Tricked Out" edition of The Fast and the Furious was basically the original release with the DTS soundtrack removed so that a preview of 2 Fast 2 Furious could fit in there. Universal did the same thing with The Bourne Identity. Decontenting is bad enough, but when it occurs under the guise of an "all-new special collector's edition" that's just low, especially when they maintain the same list price as a new release. At least when a DVD gets stripped down with the bonus features and DTS soundtracks removed, the studio will usually lower the price of the DVD.

    I think in general producing a two-disc release doesn't really cost that much more if the studio already knows that there's a high demand for a particular title. Different studios seem to be playing around with different strategies.

    Quote Originally Posted by daigoro
    All too true. One thing I miss in the good old days of laser discs was the studios knew that pretty much only true film buffs bought laser discs and that they appreciated a quality picture and sound. That's why they paid $40 for a laser disc instead of buying VHS! And bonus materials, while not as common as on DVD, were generally higher quality when they were offered.
    I think it really varies with the studio. Keep in mind that DD wasn't even available on Laserdisc until about 1994, and DTS came about later. So, for most of Laserdisc's existence, the audio was two-channel. Also, VHS had the dreaded "rental pricing" structure where new releases would go for around $90, and roll back down to around $20 several months later. In a lot of cases, the video quality on Laserdisc might be better than the DVD, but you couldn't do anamorphic widescreen with Laserdisc either.

    Warner right now is the best studio when it comes to the consistently high quality of their DVD releases. After being notorious for their movie-only releases and snapper cases, they have started to put together an incredible streak of great classic movie releases. The picture quality is consistently high, and in general, they do more 5.1 remixing with older titles than other studios. And their two-disc special edition rereleases also have consistently good features and extras included. The only drawback to Warner is that they don't support DTS.

    Quote Originally Posted by daigoro
    Unfortunately, things like "director's cut" or "unedited cut" or "bonus materials added" are more just marketing ploys than features that really enrich the film nowadays. My director's cut versions on my laser discs are few and far between, but are real gems like Aliens, The Abyss, T2, Bladerunner, The Godfather Trilogy, and Fatal Attraction. Now these versions genuinely offer a different vision of a film--even different endings!--as opposed to just heaping stuff from the cutting room floor into the flick. Do we really need a director's cut of Boogeyman 2 and Supergirl?
    There's plenty of crap to go around, but with the DVD I especially like the seamless branching feature that allows viewers to watch two different versions of a movie. The economies of scale with the DVD now allow for multiple versions of a movie to go out, often on the same disc release, and I think that's beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    As being a professional disc reviewer I MUST say THIS about Universal lately: their marketing objective just plain CONFUSES me.....MY biggest complaint about the studio is that they drop DTS mixes on things like MEET THE PARENTS and MEET THE FOCKERS while giving titles like VAN HELSING and DAWN OF THE DEAD Dolby Digital tracks......yet, in their past they have dropped awesome DTS mixes on things like U571, Apollo 13 and The Mummy.....they recently put a DTS mix on ALONG CAME POLLY, yet RE-RELEASED A SPECIAL IMAX EDITION of Apollo 13 and REMOVED THE DTS TRACK FROM THAT....
    Professional disc reviewer? You mean you get paid to write reviews for this site? Or you got a credential to attend press screenings? Or you get advance promo copies of DVDs that you review?

    The inclusion of DTS has always been dicey at best. Universal used to put out separate DTS versions of their DVDs back when DTS required a 1.5k bitrate, and even there, those were generally produced in low quantities and not easy to find. It was only when a half-bitrate version of DTS got created that you saw DTS soundtracks getting included with general release DVDs.

    Universal's never been one of the better companies for putting out top notch DVDs. IMO, that title goes to Warner, which doesn't even support DTS.

    DTS is nice to have, but it's not a make or break feature IMO. If a DVD has stellar picture quality, a good selection of worthwhile supplements, and a well done 5.1 DD soundtrack, I'm not going to avoid it or look down on it just because it lacks DTS. When Spider-Man 2 came out on DVD, Columbia put out three different versions -- the general release two-disc set, a gift box that included sketch books and other similar items, and the Superbit movie-only version that included the DTS soundtrack. Because I wanted to enjoy the bonus features, I went with the two-disc version. Also, the benefits that DTS provides are every bit as applicable to more dialog driven movies like Meet The Fockers as louder action pics like Van Helsing. If anything, the bass is where DTS makes the least audible difference, if you're comparing soundtracks transferred using the same master.

    Just so you know, Apollo 13 was originally released simultaneously in two different versions -- a general release version that includes a documentary feature, and two commentary tracks; and the DTS version that included none of the bonus features. The two-disc anniversary edition of Apollo 13 did not remove the DTS track, because the original general release DVD never had DTS to start with. And even there, the second disc containing the IMAX version of Apollo 13 includes the DTS soundtrack.

    The original release of The Mummy also did not include a DTS soundtrack. It wasn't until the sequel was about to come out that Universal put out a two-disc Ultimate Edition of The Mummy to help promote the sequel. Only the Ultimate Edition included the DTS soundtrack, and not long after The Mummy Returns came out, Universal took the Ultimate Edition out of print.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 08-05-2005 at 03:38 PM.

  7. #7
    Resident DVD Reviewer
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    1,202
    "Professional disc reviewer? You mean you get paid to write reviews for this site? Or you got a credential to attend press screenings? Or you get advance promo copies of DVDs that you review?"

    Well, lets start with this statement you make above; YES I DO GET PAID as a professional DVD reviewer NOT BY THIS SITE --- and I NEVER SAID THAT IN MY POST --- but on a freelance basis for DVD ETC and Home Theater Magazines. Yes I do.

    "The inclusion of DTS has always been dicey at best"

    By who's standards and from when? Certainly not in the past few years. Digital Theater Systems have had their hands in the home hobbyist community for at least the last five years and are trying to listen to what consumers want----its the STUDIOS that just wont jump behind this bandwagon.

    "Universal's never been one of the better companies for putting out top notch DVDs. IMO, that title goes to Warner, which doesn't even support DTS."

    Oh man, as a member of the home theater community on so many levels, I HAVE to disagree with you----Warner Brothers simply SUCKS in comparison to what Universal has been putting out home video division wise; and while you are right to a point about Warner not supporting DTS, you are also very incorrect as many of their new titles that are in conjunction with their MORGAN CREEK division are coming with KICK-ASS DTS tracks, as on EXORCIST: THE BEGINNING. Warner also has some rare DTS discs that are awesome like TWISTER.

    "DTS is nice to have, but it's not a make or break feature IMO."

    You need to hear some demo quality DTS mixes more often in that case; no kidding. Even the best-engineered Dolby track cant hold a candle to a WELL MADE DTS mix. It sure makes or breaks a purchase for me when there's a choice----unfortunately, as was the point of this thread, Universal has made some odd choices ---- and this doesnt take away from the fact that I still believe they're a better quality studio than Warner --- when putting soundtracks on their titles; why Van Helsing and Dawn of the Dead didnt get a DTS mix while MEET THE PARENTS did, I'll never figure out......

    "If a DVD has stellar picture quality, a good selection of worthwhile supplements, and a well done 5.1 DD soundtrack, I'm not going to avoid it or look down on it just because it lacks DTS. When Spider-Man 2 came out on DVD, Columbia put out three different versions -- the general release two-disc set, a gift box that included sketch books and other similar items, and the Superbit movie-only version that included the DTS soundtrack. Because I wanted to enjoy the bonus features, I went with the two-disc version."

    Then you missed out on the Superbit versions AWESOME DTS mix, which blows the Dolby mix bit for bit out of the water-----visit any online review site and you'll see what I mean. I was on a pre-press wait list for the SUPERBIT version of Spider Man 2 and wouldnt even consider touching the Special Edition with the Dolby track.


    "Also, the benefits that DTS provides are every bit as applicable to more dialog driven movies like Meet The Fockers as louder action pics like Van Helsing"

    You're not serious, are you? Please tell me you're not.......

    "Just so you know, Apollo 13 was originally released simultaneously in two different versions -- a general release version that includes a documentary feature, and two commentary tracks; and the DTS version that included none of the bonus features."

    Yes I know.

    "The two-disc anniversary edition of Apollo 13 did not remove the DTS track, because the original general release DVD never had DTS to start with. And even there, the second disc containing the IMAX version of Apollo 13 includes the DTS soundtrack."

    Yes, I KNOW the DTS mix is ON the IMAX disc of that set-----you didnt have to tell me that. But visit ANY ONLINE DVD FANATIC SITE and you will hear the same thing----UNIVERSAL REMOVED THE DTS MIX FROM THIS TITLE!!!! URGHHHHHHH!!!!! I think you took, anyway, my analysis and use of the word "removed" a bit too far here----and you know you were being just a tad bit fecicious, didnt you? I KNOW there was a second, separate DTS release of A13, as there was with JURASSIC PARK, but the fact of the matter is that DVD ENTHUSIASTS-----READ THE REVIEW ON THE DIGITAL BITS.COM----are upset over the fact that Universal DIDNT PUT THE DTS MIX ON THE FIRST DISC ON THAT TWO DISC ANNIVERSARY EDITION with the IMAX disc, and instead put it on the IMAX version......this was not a wise decision to home theater enthusiasts.

    "The original release of The Mummy also did not include a DTS soundtrack. It wasn't until the sequel was about to come out that Universal put out a two-disc Ultimate Edition of The Mummy to help promote the sequel. Only the Ultimate Edition included the DTS soundtrack, and not long after The Mummy Returns came out, Universal took the Ultimate Edition out of print"

    Yes, this I know.....and hence the reason why Universal will NOT get my money for the standard Dolby Digital encoded "Collector's Edition" thats readily available now. The biggest mistake they made was eliminating a DTS version of this film in ANY release format---Deluxe, Anniversary, etc.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Well, lets start with this statement you make above; YES I DO GET PAID as a professional DVD reviewer NOT BY THIS SITE --- and I NEVER SAID THAT IN MY POST --- but on a freelance basis for DVD ETC and Home Theater Magazines. Yes I do.
    Good to know, always have to reality check whenever people make claims like that since I've known plenty of people over the years who work as entertainment journalists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "The inclusion of DTS has always been dicey at best"

    By who's standards and from when? Certainly not in the past few years. Digital Theater Systems have had their hands in the home hobbyist community for at least the last five years and are trying to listen to what consumers want----its the STUDIOS that just wont jump behind this bandwagon.
    And it was the studios that I was referring to. Isn't this thread about Universal and their inconsistency with DTS releases? If receiver and processor manufacturers were excluding DTS from their decoder chips, then that's another discussion

    Anyway, let's look at some facts and avoid the hyperbole:
    # of R1 DTS titles: 1,083 (from DTS' website)
    # of R1 DVD titles released: 48,333 (from The Digital Bits)
    % of DVDs with DTS soundtracks: 2.2% (from basic math)
    I'll let you decide if that meets your standard for "dicey." 2.2% certainly doesn't meet my standard for consistent or frequent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "Universal's never been one of the better companies for putting out top notch DVDs. IMO, that title goes to Warner, which doesn't even support DTS."

    Oh man, as a member of the home theater community on so many levels, I HAVE to disagree with you----Warner Brothers simply SUCKS in comparison to what Universal has been putting out home video division wise; and while you are right to a point about Warner not supporting DTS, you are also very incorrect as many of their new titles that are in conjunction with their MORGAN CREEK division are coming with KICK-ASS DTS tracks, as on EXORCIST: THE BEGINNING. Warner also has some rare DTS discs that are awesome like TWISTER.
    It doesn't matter how many levels of home theater you claim membership in -- your opinion about Warner is hardly a universally shared view. The DVD review sites that I frequent (DVDTalk, The Digital Bits, and DVDFile) consistently praise Warner for the technical quality of their DVD releases. And unless you've been hiding under a rock for the past four years, name me one studio that has done better DVD releases from their classic film library than Warner has during that time?

    They do more frame by frame Technicolor restorations for home video than all of the other studios, and their special editions for classic films have been consistently outstanding. Some examples that I've bought for myself include The Right Stuff, The Mission, Once Upon A Time In America, Rebel Without A Cause, Heat, Around the World in 80 Days, Citizen Kane, Bullitt, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Amadeus, The Color Purple, Giant, Meet Me In St. Louis, Gone With The Wind, Singin' In The Rain, Goodfellas, Enter The Dragon, etc. Far above what you typically see from the other studios in terms of the consistent technical quality and the quality of the bonus materials. Here's a commentary by Robert Harris that supports that position. (in case you don't know, he's a film restoration expert and historian who supervised the restorations of Lawrence of Arabia, Spartacus, and My Fair Lady among others). Here's a snippet and a link.

    Warner Home Video has proven, more than any other studio, that they want to provide the public with important films in high quality transfers with a myriad of extras, and all at a price that makes these purchases easy on the budget. They have also advanced the technology of film restoration, especially when oriented towards home video. In this regard, appreciation must be offered to Chris Cookson, Rob Hummel and Ned Price, without whom...

    Warner Home Video has shown that they have a love not just for marketing and sales, but more importantly, for the cinema. There is no question that these people love film.


    http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...ris122204.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "DTS is nice to have, but it's not a make or break feature IMO."

    You need to hear some demo quality DTS mixes more often in that case; no kidding. Even the best-engineered Dolby track cant hold a candle to a WELL MADE DTS mix. It sure makes or breaks a purchase for me when there's a choice----unfortunately, as was the point of this thread, Universal has made some odd choices ---- and this doesnt take away from the fact that I still believe they're a better quality studio than Warner --- when putting soundtracks on their titles; why Van Helsing and Dawn of the Dead didnt get a DTS mix while MEET THE PARENTS did, I'll never figure out......
    I've got enough demo quality DTS soundtracks in my collection, as well as demo quality DD soundtracks already. If you hear DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks that are transferred simultaneously from the same master, there's a subtle perceptible improvement with the DTS track. And in this endeavor, there are only a limited number of DVDs that allow for this kind of comparison. I've done the comparisons using Twister, and the Lethal Weapon series, which are among the few valid comparison discs available because the DD tracks were transferred with zero dialog normalization, the DTS tracks used the full bitrate 1.5k version, and both sound formats were transferred simultaneously using identical settings. My system is calibrated and timbre matched, with an equalized sub, and in my observations, the differences were a lot less noticeable than with other discs in my collection that do not have the DD and DTS tracks matched so evenly. For one thing, a DD track mastered to industry standards will have a -4 db dialog normalization offset. For anything close to a valid comparison to DTS, you'd have to bump up the volume on the DD track by 4 db.

    Any more significant differences that you might have observed on other discs have NOTHING to do with the format itself, but more to do with the mixing and mastering. Just because the DTS soundtrack from a DVD like Gladiator blows away the DD version on that particular disc, that says absolutely nothing about the format itself because the soundtracks on that title got transferred under different conditions at different times by different engineers who likely used different settings.

    I don't understand Universal's decision making process on DTS either. You seem well connected enough, maybe you should find out and let us know. Ask them why they put Casino on a flipper disc rather than two separate discs if you get them on the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "Also, the benefits that DTS provides are every bit as applicable to more dialog driven movies like Meet The Fockers as louder action pics like Van Helsing"

    You're not serious, are you? Please tell me you're not.......
    Of course I'm serious. The primary benefit to DTS from my observations is that it has a more open sound with more depth and precise imaging cues. Are you saying that dialog driven movies with music and ambient cues in the soundtrack don't benefit from DTS' attributes? With action movies, the only added benefit is that the DTS track can be set at a higher level before distortion kicks in, but so long as a DD track is transferred at industry standard levels, then audible distortion is pretty rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Yes, I KNOW the DTS mix is ON the IMAX disc of that set-----you didnt have to tell me that. But visit ANY ONLINE DVD FANATIC SITE and you will hear the same thing----UNIVERSAL REMOVED THE DTS MIX FROM THIS TITLE!!!! URGHHHHHHH!!!!! I think you took, anyway, my analysis and use of the word "removed" a bit too far here----and you know you were being just a tad bit fecicious, didnt you? I KNOW there was a second, separate DTS release of A13, as there was with JURASSIC PARK, but the fact of the matter is that DVD ENTHUSIASTS-----READ THE REVIEW ON THE DIGITAL BITS.COM----are upset over the fact that Universal DIDNT PUT THE DTS MIX ON THE FIRST DISC ON THAT TWO DISC ANNIVERSARY EDITION with the IMAX disc, and instead put it on the IMAX version......this was not a wise decision to home theater enthusiasts.
    Just because a DVD "fanatic site" whines about the DTS track's exclusion from the theatrical version, doesn't mean that the track was "removed" from the title. Again, the general release version of Apollo 13 did NOT include a DTS track. Only a stripped down movie-only version with limited availability came with the DTS track. The new anniversary edition comes with a full complement of supplements, in addition to the IMAX version. Where does the DTS track go with all of these other data demands? I suppose the alternative would be to put the DTS track with the theatrical version and put all of the supplements in with the IMAX version, but then the IMAX version would not come with the DTS track.

    Since Apollo 13 came out in IMAX theaters as an IMAX DMR release, the soundtrack had to get remastered for IMAX's noncompressed 24-bit DTAC sound format (whose resolution blows away both DTS and Dolby Digital). Because IMAX theaters use point source surround speaker configurations in their theaters rather than multiple surround speaker arrays along the walls, the mixing can be optimized for this kind of a setup (which resembles a home theater much more than the typical surround arrays found at multiplexes). Listening to an IMAX-specific movie soundtrack like Blue Planet, the directional cues are far better placed with a tighter surround encirclement effect than the typical studio releases. If you're going to pick an optimal soundtrack for transfer to DTS, the IMAX soundtrack is a much better bet if the Apollo 13 IMAX soundtrack was repurposed for the point source surround speaker arrangements at IMAX theaters. The IMAX sound configuration was discussed recently.

    Some sound reasons to go IMAX
    Last edited by Woochifer; 08-05-2005 at 10:35 PM.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    50
    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Keep in mind that DD wasn't even available on Laserdisc until about 1994, and DTS came about later. So, for most of Laserdisc's existence, the audio was two-channel.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but laser discs did have Dolby Surround and Dolby Pro Logic for quite some time which, while not as robust as DD or DTS, is more than 2 channels. Or are those just fancy redistributions of a 2 channel signal?

  10. #10
    Resident DVD Reviewer
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    1,202
    "Good to know, always have to reality check whenever people make claims like that since I've known plenty of people over the years who work as entertainment journalists."

    What is this supposed to mean, specifically and exactly.....

    "And it was the studios that I was referring to. Isn't this thread about Universal and their inconsistency with DTS releases? If receiver and processor manufacturers were excluding DTS from their decoder chips, then that's another discussion"

    I dont follow you here......yes, it IS about Universal and their inconsistency with DTS releases....where did it stray from that?

    "Anyway, let's look at some facts and avoid the hyperbole:
    # of R1 DTS titles: 1,083 (from DTS' website)
    # of R1 DVD titles released: 48,333 (from The Digital Bits)
    % of DVDs with DTS soundtracks: 2.2% (from basic math)
    I'll let you decide if that meets your standard for "dicey." 2.2% certainly doesn't meet my standard for consistent or frequent."

    "Dicey" is STILL not a venacular I would use to describe the DTS phenomenon.

    "It doesn't matter how many levels of home theater you claim membership in"

    In whos opinion----YOURS?

    "your opinion about Warner is hardly a universally shared view."

    Not so for the folks I review for and with over at DVD ETC and Home Theater......but let me address this below.....

    "The DVD review sites that I frequent (DVDTalk, The Digital Bits, and DVDFile) consistently praise Warner for the technical quality of their DVD releases"

    MY personal reviews (which it really does not make any difference if you believe in or not, etc, because they ARE credited; I already gave RGA the personal cell phone number of my film school professor to talk with and I will gladly give you MY personal line or the editor's number at DVD ETC---well, actually the Features Editor if you would like) as well as countless online reviews I have read regarding Warner's releases have all come to the same similar conclusions: Warner is simply hit or miss when it comes to their releases, and this has been for almost every title I have reviewed of theirs. Their BACK CATALOG material is particularly horrendous, including EXECUTIVE DECISION (where is the dialogue track on this DVD and what is up with the popping on the screen like a real movie theater projector?), and EVERY title which includes Steven Seagal in the cast --- THOSE ARE ALL OF HORRENDOUS TRANSFER QUALITY. Their recent release of CONSTANTINE didnt do ANYTHING for me, either, and has been VERIFIED BY OTHER ONLINE REVIEWERS (and I can SITE THESE GUYS if you want me to----MOST OF THEM from Home Theater Forum.com) that the dialogue track on this disc was recorded horrendously low and the overall volume of the track is weak; I simply dont like Warner or their products, plain and simple; Ive reviewed too many of their titles which made me cringe, sometimes to the point that I had to stop the disc --- as was the case of Executive Decision......and dont even get me started on their PACKAGING policy and those awful cheap snapper cases; do yourself a big favor and hop on Home Theater Forum.com and search for all the COMPLAINT THREADS regarding Warner Brothers and their packaging and horrible back catalog titling efforts. The only last great product I reviewed from their vaults was EXORCIST: THE BEGINNING, which INCLUDED a DTS mix as well as a Dolby mix.

    "And unless you've been hiding under a rock for the past four years, name me one studio that has done better DVD releases from their classic film library than Warner has during that time?"

    As I said, most of their back catalog product would make for good toilet paper for me, and I stand by that on every one of my reviews, and have even said this in e mail relations with their press department (not in those words, but this studio KNOWS how I feel about their transfers and product).....and you want to see how DVD SHOULD be done? Look to New Line Cinema's home video division because they put out STUNNING products like The Butterfly Effect, which contains a spine tingling DTS mix as well as a hue-deadening video transfer; studios need to take some lessons from New Line, who, unfortunately, have gotten a bad rap because of their involvement with the Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street series.

    "They do more frame by frame Technicolor restorations for home video than all of the other studios, and their special editions for classic films have been consistently outstanding. Some examples that I've bought for myself include The Right Stuff, The Mission, Once Upon A Time In America, Rebel Without A Cause, Heat, Around the World in 80 Days, Citizen Kane, Bullitt, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Amadeus, The Color Purple, Giant, Meet Me In St. Louis, Gone With The Wind, Singin' In The Rain, Goodfellas, Enter The Dragon, etc. Far above what you typically see from the other studios in terms of the consistent technical quality and the quality of the bonus materials. Here's a commentary by Robert Harris that supports that position. (in case you don't know, he's a film restoration expert and historian who supervised the restorations of Lawrence of Arabia, Spartacus, and My Fair Lady among others). Here's a snippet and a link"

    Yes, I do know who he is-----again you are attempting to be fecicious but its not working believe me----and while I will give you GoodFellas, which looked great on its remaster effort, I can name a dozen titles to counteract your list which Warner just ****ed up....


    "I've got enough demo quality DTS soundtracks in my collection, as well as demo quality DD soundtracks already. If you hear DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks that are transferred simultaneously from the same master, there's a subtle perceptible improvement with the DTS track. And in this endeavor, there are only a limited number of DVDs that allow for this kind of comparison. I've done the comparisons using Twister, and the Lethal Weapon series, which are among the few valid comparison discs available because the DD tracks were transferred with zero dialog normalization, the DTS tracks used the full bitrate 1.5k version, and both sound formats were transferred simultaneously using identical settings. My system is calibrated and timbre matched, with an equalized sub, and in my observations, the differences were a lot less noticeable than with other discs in my collection that do not have the DD and DTS tracks matched so evenly. For one thing, a DD track mastered to industry standards will have a -4 db dialog normalization offset. For anything close to a valid comparison to DTS, you'd have to bump up the volume on the DD track by 4 db."

    Without a doubt, and without needing to prove anything to you, to me, to each other, to anyone else, DTS soundtracks to the human ear do in fact release a HOTTER experience, aurally, than do Dolby Digital ones.

    "Any more significant differences that you might have observed on other discs have NOTHING to do with the format itself, but more to do with the mixing and mastering."

    Could very well be; in CERTAIN-----VERY CERTAIN---circumstances.


    "Just because the DTS soundtrack from a DVD like Gladiator blows away the DD version on that particular disc, that says absolutely nothing about the format itself because the soundtracks on that title got transferred under different conditions at different times by different engineers who likely used different settings."

    Well, I dont quite agree with this as some blame needs to be placed elsewhere.

    "I don't understand Universal's decision making process on DTS either. You seem well connected enough, maybe you should find out and let us know. Ask them why they put Casino on a flipper disc rather than two separate discs if you get them on the line"

    I did; their simple answer? Cost cutting. Their initial release price of this disc wanted to be kept down for widespread selling and distribution success, and so while the studio knew this was going to be mainly a double dip for people, they decided against fancy artwork for two discs and decided AGAINST dropping that awesome two hour Vegas and the Mob documentary which would have pushed the release into two discs; this is what was explained to me. Phil Riccabono, of Universal's press department, has always been tight lipped in ALL interviews I have done with him regarding these DTS marketing decisions; the studio just makes TERRIBLE decisions in this regard; Im glad you agree.

    "Of course I'm serious."

    Didnt seem to be to me.....

    "The primary benefit to DTS from my observations is that it has a more open sound with more depth and precise imaging cues. Are you saying that dialog driven movies with music and ambient cues in the soundtrack don't benefit from DTS' attributes?"

    Yes I am to a point; there is no need to hear a bird chirping more clearly or Ben Stiller's voice yelling more loudly via a DTS track RATHER THAN use the decoding system on something like VAN HELSING with sweeping action sequences. This just makes common sense to me.....

    "With action movies, the only added benefit is that the DTS track can be set at a higher level before distortion kicks in, but so long as a DD track is transferred at industry standard levels, then audible distortion is pretty rare."

    Im telling you-----LISTEN VERY CLOSELY to the Dolby Digital track on the remake of DAWN OF THE DEAD and VAN HELSING and tell me honestly that you dont BELIEVE DTS could have made this audio "breathe" much better and just bring the mixes to life.....there are just so many reviews which say the EXACT SAME THING regarding the choice to use Dolby Digital on these DVDs; most every reviewer says the same thing: where was the DTS for Van Helsing when ALONG CAME POLLY got a DTS mix?

    Again, it IS my standpoint that ALONG CAME POLLY or something of its caliber SHOULD NOT GET A DTS TRACK when VAN HELSING didnt......

    "Just because a DVD "fanatic site" whines about the DTS track's exclusion from the theatrical version, doesn't mean that the track was "removed" from the title."

    What? Im saying that I KNOW the track wasnt removed; it was a SEPARATE DTS RELEASE; this I KNOW, much like Jurassic Park --- I was saying that it was simply NOT INCLUDED on this Anniversary Edition and it was a rather RIDICULOUSLY STUPID decision to drop the DTS mix on the IMAX version only.....

    "Again, the general release version of Apollo 13 did NOT include a DTS track. Only a stripped down movie-only version with limited availability came with the DTS track."

    Again, I KNOW this.

    "The new anniversary edition comes with a full complement of supplements, in addition to the IMAX version. Where does the DTS track go with all of these other data demands? I suppose the alternative would be to put the DTS track with the theatrical version and put all of the supplements in with the IMAX version, but then the IMAX version would not come with the DTS track."

    Let me tell you something-----online reviewer fans --- INCLUDING THE GUY WHO REVIEWED THIS DISC FOR THE DIGITAL BITS --- found it very odd that Universal chose to leave off the DTS mix from the theatrical version of the first disc. Im not the only one. I dont care what Universal should have done; they SHOULDNT have left off the DTS mix which simply brings the rumble of the rockets in this film to absolute brilliant life.

    "Since Apollo 13 came out in IMAX theaters as an IMAX DMR release, the soundtrack had to get remastered for IMAX's noncompressed 24-bit DTAC sound format (whose resolution blows away both DTS and Dolby Digital). Because IMAX theaters use point source surround speaker configurations in their theaters rather than multiple surround speaker arrays along the walls, the mixing can be optimized for this kind of a setup (which resembles a home theater much more than the typical surround arrays found at multiplexes). Listening to an IMAX-specific movie soundtrack like Blue Planet, the directional cues are far better placed with a tighter surround encirclement effect than the typical studio releases. If you're going to pick an optimal soundtrack for transfer to DTS, the IMAX soundtrack is a much better bet if the Apollo 13 IMAX soundtrack was repurposed for the point source surround speaker arrangements at IMAX theaters. The IMAX sound configuration was discussed recently."

    Thats fine; I STILL contend that the theatrical version of Apollo 13, when Universal was re releasing this Anniversary DVD, SHOULD HAVE DEFINITELY had the DTS mix on it; want proof? It may not be cruicial or meaningful to you or the studio, but they lost a buyer in ME because I refuse to buy this title OR The Mummy without the DTS track after demoing both of them years ago and being blown away. These titles wont find their way into my personal collection, nor in those of fellow reviewer friends I know.

  11. #11
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    3,326

    I'm glad that you cleared that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "Professional disc reviewer? You mean you get paid to write reviews for this site? Or you got a credential to attend press screenings? Or you get advance promo copies of DVDs that you review?"

    Well, lets start with this statement you make above; YES I DO GET PAID as a professional DVD reviewer NOT BY THIS SITE --- and I NEVER SAID THAT IN MY POST --- but on a freelance basis for DVD ETC and Home Theater Magazines. Yes I do.
    Because your use of the words "Resident DVD Reviewer" in your screen name leads many people to belive that you are Audioreview.com's paid reviewer. Thanks for clearing that up.

    While I have enjoyed your reviews, posting them into a Forum setting gives people every right to post opposing views, and argue any point you make.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  12. #12
    Resident DVD Reviewer
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    1,202
    "Because your use of the words "Resident DVD Reviewer" in your screen name leads many people to belive that you are Audioreview.com's paid reviewer. Thanks for clearing that up."

    Well, perhaps that should have been addressed, but honestly, if you think about it, what WOULD have been the difference if I was?

    "I have enjoyed your reviews"

    Thank you; as you can see, I have disregarded the remainder of the rhetoric; at any rate, what would there be to "dispute" or argue about? Im supplying information for raw DVD specifications and not to dispute the plots of these pieces of cinema; I leave that to those who worship at the feet of self proclaimed Gods like Ebert --- the main idea of the reviews is to give you people an idea of what a DVD LOOKS and SOUNDS like and should really warrant no "argument" at that point because, well, look up my reviews compared to others' on say The Digital Bits and you will find striking similarities, i.e. "Buena Vista could have done MUCH better with the 5.1 track on this disc...." yada yada yada.....It really doesnt warrant argument and public backlash because Im not really standing as an advocate for these films, more of a "conveyer of physical raw spec information."

    Thank you again for reading and enjoying.

  13. #13
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    3,326
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "Because your use of the words "Resident DVD Reviewer" in your screen name leads many people to belive that you are Audioreview.com's paid reviewer. Thanks for clearing that up
    Well, perhaps that should have been addressed, but honestly, if you think about it, what WOULD have been the difference if I was?.
    If you don't understand what the difference is then I am sorry. The fact of the matter is that you are NOT the Audioreview.com resident DVD reviewer, and any opinions you have are yours alone.


    Thank you; as you can see, I have disregarded the remainder of the rhetoric; at any rate, what would there be to "dispute" or argue about? Im supplying information for raw DVD specifications and not to dispute the plots of these pieces of cinema; I leave that to those who worship at the feet of self proclaimed Gods like Ebert --- the main idea of the reviews is to give you people an idea of what a DVD LOOKS and SOUNDS like and should really warrant no "argument" at that point because, well, look up my reviews compared to others' on say The Digital Bits and you will find striking similarities, i.e. "Buena Vista could have done MUCH better with the 5.1 track on this disc...." yada yada yada.....It really doesnt warrant argument and public backlash because Im not really standing as an advocate for these films, more of a "conveyer of physical raw spec information."
    Again, I am sorry you consider my statements rhetoric, but I assure you that they are not.
    The rest of your argument stating that nobody should argue with you, as you are simply stating "facts" in your reviews is patently absurd. People have every right to argue any point you may make. I don't consider that in any way "public backlash" as these are PUBLIC forums, and any Forum member has as much a right to express their opinion as you do.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  14. #14
    Resident DVD Reviewer
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    1,202
    "If you don't understand what the difference is then I am sorry. The fact of the matter is that you are NOT the Audioreview.com resident DVD reviewer"

    Well, I dont see anyone else stepping up to the plate to declare so......hence, here is the resident DVD reviewer! If you need some English language clarification classes at the college level, I can only offer this in return: this does NOT mean I need to get paid for such services, but that I CONTRIBUTE to such a board.

    "Again, I am sorry you consider my statements rhetoric, but I assure you that they are not."

    Well I am sure sorry for you in that case.

    "The rest of your argument stating that nobody should argue with you, as you are simply stating "facts" in your reviews is patently absurd. People have every right to argue any point you may make"

    Argue about WHAT? You are still not making any sense here nor providing any further evidence regarding exactly what it is you are referring to.....it's okay for people to ARGUE about statements I am making based on TECHNICAL BRIEFS that dont allow themselves to be open to ridicule OR argument or judgement? These are just technical overviews, so where is the arguing coming from; this is again where you have lost me. Take a deep breath and try and calmly address this.....

    "I don't consider that in any way "public backlash" as these are PUBLIC forums, and any Forum member has as much a right to express their opinion as you do."

    Im not really expressing opinions, lets begin with that-----Im providing results I am finding after reviewing discs; they are not MEANT to begin bickering arguments at all, and when did I say anything about public backlash? You MAY need to point this out for me if it is indeed imbedded within the thread rhetoric.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    What is this supposed to mean, specifically and exactly.....
    Because if you had referred to yourself a "professional" disc reviewer just because you post a bunch of reviews onto this site, then that would have been quite a stretch in my view, since this site is an open forum where anybody can post anything within the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "Dicey" is STILL not a venacular I would use to describe the DTS phenomenon.
    With hardware, DTS is universally available. With DVD titles, there's no rhyme or reason to figure out where you will find a DTS soundtrack, that's why I consider it dicey. And a market share of 2.2% of the titles that have been released isn't earthshattering by any standard considering that Dolby Digital is close to 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    MY personal reviews (which it really does not make any difference if you believe in or not, etc, because they ARE credited; I already gave RGA the personal cell phone number of my film school professor to talk with and I will gladly give you MY personal line or the editor's number at DVD ETC---well, actually the Features Editor if you would like) as well as countless online reviews I have read regarding Warner's releases have all come to the same similar conclusions: Warner is simply hit or miss when it comes to their releases, and this has been for almost every title I have reviewed of theirs. Their BACK CATALOG material is particularly horrendous, including EXECUTIVE DECISION (where is the dialogue track on this DVD and what is up with the popping on the screen like a real movie theater projector?), and EVERY title which includes Steven Seagal in the cast --- THOSE ARE ALL OF HORRENDOUS TRANSFER QUALITY. Their recent release of CONSTANTINE didnt do ANYTHING for me, either, and has been VERIFIED BY OTHER ONLINE REVIEWERS (and I can SITE THESE GUYS if you want me to----MOST OF THEM from Home Theater Forum.com) that the dialogue track on this disc was recorded horrendously low and the overall volume of the track is weak; I simply dont like Warner or their products, plain and simple; Ive reviewed too many of their titles which made me cringe, sometimes to the point that I had to stop the disc --- as was the case of Executive Decision......and dont even get me started on their PACKAGING policy and those awful cheap snapper cases; do yourself a big favor and hop on Home Theater Forum.com and search for all the COMPLAINT THREADS regarding Warner Brothers and their packaging and horrible back catalog titling efforts. The only last great product I reviewed from their vaults was EXORCIST: THE BEGINNING, which INCLUDED a DTS mix as well as a Dolby mix.
    Executive Decision? Constantine? Steven Seagal? You're obviously focusing on a different set of movies than I am. Warner did have some less than stellar DVD releases with their first batch of movie-only titles, but then again, EVERY studio had the same kind of inconsistency in the early going.

    All of the two-disc special editions that Warner has been rereleasing have had consistently high quality all the way around as far as I'm concerned, and these treatments are a lot better than what most other studios have been doing for their film libraries.

    And with the packaging, Warner has jettisoned the snapper case, which was justifiably vilified by nearly everyone. In case you haven't noticed, their newer releases have been using the standard Amaray cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    As I said, most of their back catalog product would make for good toilet paper for me, and I stand by that on every one of my reviews, and have even said this in e mail relations with their press department (not in those words, but this studio KNOWS how I feel about their transfers and product).....and you want to see how DVD SHOULD be done? Look to New Line Cinema's home video division because they put out STUNNING products like The Butterfly Effect, which contains a spine tingling DTS mix as well as a hue-deadening video transfer; studios need to take some lessons from New Line, who, unfortunately, have gotten a bad rap because of their involvement with the Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street series.
    And who produces and distributes New Line's home video products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Yes, I do know who he is-----again you are attempting to be fecicious but its not working believe me----and while I will give you GoodFellas, which looked great on its remaster effort, I can name a dozen titles to counteract your list which Warner just ****ed up....
    Is Goodfellas the only one of Warner's two-disc special editions that you own? You really need to look into more of them if you haven't seen a lot of them, because all the way down the line, from the video transfers, to the soundtrack remixing, to the supplemental selection, those titles are typically the best special edition reissues this side of Criterion. This is what Robert Harris was talking about, and plenty of other DVD reviews have praised Warner's archiving and reissuing efforts with their classic movie titles. With the three-strip Technicolor releases, no other studio is even close to what Warner has been doing with the negative restoration and creating high def masters frame-by-frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Without a doubt, and without needing to prove anything to you, to me, to each other, to anyone else, DTS soundtracks to the human ear do in fact release a HOTTER experience, aurally, than do Dolby Digital ones.
    It's only fact to YOUR human ear, with an emphasis on human. You can get a "hotter" experience with DD by simply turning up the volume, if you're trying to match the levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "Just because the DTS soundtrack from a DVD like Gladiator blows away the DD version on that particular disc, that says absolutely nothing about the format itself because the soundtracks on that title got transferred under different conditions at different times by different engineers who likely used different settings."

    Well, I dont quite agree with this as some blame needs to be placed elsewhere.
    The dialog normalization's the easiest place to start, because in most cases, the DTS soundtrack will be 4 db louder than the DD track with a normal offset. Something that sounds louder will obviously sound more dynamic at normal listening levels. In the case of Gladiator, that DTS soundtrack was created back when DTS was still doing most of the encoding in-house. Without the soundtracks getting transferred simultaneously, it's impossible to verify whether the settings and master sources were identically prepared. All you have to do is compare remastered CD versions to hear how much of a difference a new transfer can make -- and in this case, we're talking about different versions of a recording using an identical audio format.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "I don't understand Universal's decision making process on DTS either. You seem well connected enough, maybe you should find out and let us know. Ask them why they put Casino on a flipper disc rather than two separate discs if you get them on the line"

    I did; their simple answer? Cost cutting. Their initial release price of this disc wanted to be kept down for widespread selling and distribution success, and so while the studio knew this was going to be mainly a double dip for people, they decided against fancy artwork for two discs and decided AGAINST dropping that awesome two hour Vegas and the Mob documentary which would have pushed the release into two discs; this is what was explained to me. Phil Riccabono, of Universal's press department, has always been tight lipped in ALL interviews I have done with him regarding these DTS marketing decisions; the studio just makes TERRIBLE decisions in this regard; Im glad you agree.
    Sounds like a lot of double talk to me. Around the same time, Warner released a two-disc version of The Aviator in a normal Amaray case. No artwork changes were needed to do that. The only instance requiring an artwork change that I can think of would be if Universal wanted to do a book style case like they did with Schindler's List and the special edition of Ray, or some more elaborate (and more expensive) package like the special editions for Seabiscuit and Master and Commander. (as good as those special editions were, I did not like that I had to buy the package with the book and the film-frame print to get the supplemental disc; and I did not appreciate the $40 list price)

    This whole strategy has no logic to it because Universal went to a flipper disc with no DTS track on the Casino anniversary edition. Yet, a month later, they put out the anniversary edition of Jaws as a two-disc set that included a 64-page commemorative book and a DTS track. Both titles have identical $23 list prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "The primary benefit to DTS from my observations is that it has a more open sound with more depth and precise imaging cues. Are you saying that dialog driven movies with music and ambient cues in the soundtrack don't benefit from DTS' attributes?"

    Yes I am to a point; there is no need to hear a bird chirping more clearly or Ben Stiller's voice yelling more loudly via a DTS track RATHER THAN use the decoding system on something like VAN HELSING with sweeping action sequences. This just makes common sense to me.....
    And this is where you get off-track about the benefits of DTS. DTS is not about making something sound louder (a DD track will match the DTS track level in many cases if you simply raise the volume by 4 db), it's about improving the quality of the audio, which benefits all facets of any movie, including dialog driven ones. Just listen to the DTS soundtrack on Memento:LE if you want a good example of how a DTS remastering can improve a dialog-driven soundtrack. (And check out Pulp Fiction: CE if you want to hear an example of how a DTS track can sound worse than the DD version because of poor decisions made with the remixing) Common sense is including the DTS track whenever it's feasible. If any movie gets released with minimal supplements, then it should include a DTS track if space suffices. Otherwise, it comes down to choosing between the bonus supplements, the foreign language tracks, and the DTS track; or going with a two-disc set.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Im telling you-----LISTEN VERY CLOSELY to the Dolby Digital track on the remake of DAWN OF THE DEAD and VAN HELSING and tell me honestly that you dont BELIEVE DTS could have made this audio "breathe" much better and just bring the mixes to life.....there are just so many reviews which say the EXACT SAME THING regarding the choice to use Dolby Digital on these DVDs; most every reviewer says the same thing: where was the DTS for Van Helsing when ALONG CAME POLLY got a DTS mix?

    Again, it IS my standpoint that ALONG CAME POLLY or something of its caliber SHOULD NOT GET A DTS TRACK when VAN HELSING didnt......
    No interest in any of those movies. Didn't care much for the original DOTD, and everybody I know who saw Van Helsing told me that it sucked (including a couple who work at Universal and got to see the movie for free), so those demos won't be on my system anytime soon. No point in speculating whether DTS would have done this or done that, if a DTS version is unavailable.

    None of the DVD reviews of Van Helsing that I read mentioned Along Came Polly, so I don't know how you come up with "most every reviewer says the same thing." (The Digital Bits' review of Van Helsing is not on their site) And the reviews I read praised the 5.1 DD soundtrack that's on that disc, well, at least the ones that weren't commenting about the excessiveness of the sound effects and how it drowned out the dialog.

    If you're talking about the "caliber" of a movie, consider that Van Helsing was largely panned by critics and audiences alike, and considered a box office bomb when accounting for how much it cost to produce and market. Obviously, to Universal the movie did not warrant a two-disc release, and if Universal's going to stick to a single-disc release and cram in all of those extras, how does the DTS track fit into this? It's pretty much the same question that I addressed at the beginning -- do you go with the bonus materials or do you go with the DTS track? Universal seems to have their answer already, and they're the ones who are part-owners of DTS. Along Came Polly is a shorter movie (91 minutes) and the DVD did not include extensive supplementals, so obviously in that case there was room for the DTS track. No harm done there.

    In contrast to Universal's so-called strategy, Fox seems to be going with a pattern of issuing their recent big budget pics as stripped down movie-only DVDs with the DD and DTS tracks, and then issuing new versions that add the supplemental disc a few months later. Day After Tomorrow and I, Robot were released this way. Maybe this approach is preferable to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    What? Im saying that I KNOW the track wasnt removed; it was a SEPARATE DTS RELEASE; this I KNOW, much like Jurassic Park --- I was saying that it was simply NOT INCLUDED on this Anniversary Edition and it was a rather RIDICULOUSLY STUPID decision to drop the DTS mix on the IMAX version only.....

    "The new anniversary edition comes with a full complement of supplements, in addition to the IMAX version. Where does the DTS track go with all of these other data demands? I suppose the alternative would be to put the DTS track with the theatrical version and put all of the supplements in with the IMAX version, but then the IMAX version would not come with the DTS track."

    Let me tell you something-----online reviewer fans --- INCLUDING THE GUY WHO REVIEWED THIS DISC FOR THE DIGITAL BITS --- found it very odd that Universal chose to leave off the DTS mix from the theatrical version of the first disc. Im not the only one. I dont care what Universal should have done; they SHOULDNT have left off the DTS mix which simply brings the rumble of the rockets in this film to absolute brilliant life.
    And the rockets' rumble sounds pretty good on the DD track as well. The bass is the area where DTS makes the least amount of difference. If more bass is present in the DTS disc, then that got added during the mixing process or the settings on your processor are not set equally. The bass levels that I measured and observed when comparing the DD and DTS tracks in Twister and Lethal Weapon 3 (which are valid references due to their identical soundtrack preparation) came out the same.

    Like I said, if Universal moves the DTS track over to the theatrical edition, then the disc would have to move the supplements over to the disc that has the IMAX version and likely not include the DTS track there. If the IMAX version uses the same soundtrack as the theatrical version of Apollo 13, then I would agree with you that it's more appropriate to put the DTS track onto the theatrical version (since the IMAX version of the movie had to be edited down to under 2 hours to compensate for the reel capacity limitations of IMAX projectors at that time).

    However, if the IMAX version has a soundtrack that was repurposed and optimized for the IMAX theater configuration, then putting the DTS track onto the IMAX DVD is the way to go, because you're optimizing the most best available source material. Listen to an IMAX DVD sometime, those soundtracks were optimized for IMAX theaters. With the ones I've heard so far, the surround imaging and coherency of the soundfield is far superior to what you would typically hear from a studio release whose soundtrack was likely mixed on a dubbing stage using surround arrays. And that's with a DD soundtrack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Thats fine; I STILL contend that the theatrical version of Apollo 13, when Universal was re releasing this Anniversary DVD, SHOULD HAVE DEFINITELY had the DTS mix on it; want proof? It may not be cruicial or meaningful to you or the studio, but they lost a buyer in ME because I refuse to buy this title OR The Mummy without the DTS track after demoing both of them years ago and being blown away. These titles wont find their way into my personal collection, nor in those of fellow reviewer friends I know.
    Sounds like you'll only be happy if Apollo 13 was issued as a three-disc set.

    Like I said, DTS is a nice feature, but it's hardly a dealmaker or dealbreaker for me. If given a choice between the DTS track and the supplemental materials, I would generally go with the supplementals, unless the DTS track was specially prepared with clearly superior sound (like with Gladiator). On a two-disc set, I would agree that the DTS track should be included, but again, I'm not going to avoid otherwise stellar sets like Warner's special edition reissues just because they don't have DTS. Seems like you already got plenty of DVDs that lack DTS in your collection, so it's not like you're a DTS purist.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 08-06-2005 at 01:04 PM.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    Quote Originally Posted by daigoro
    Correct me if I am wrong, but laser discs did have Dolby Surround and Dolby Pro Logic for quite some time which, while not as robust as DD or DTS, is more than 2 channels. Or are those just fancy redistributions of a 2 channel signal?
    Dolby Surround is the home theater version of what theatrical releases referred to as Dolby Stereo. It's a two-channel matrix format, with two discrete channels and an encoded matrix channel that requires a decoder to play back. The surround track on Dolby Surround is monophonic and bandwidth restricted (cannot go above 7 kHz).

    Dolby Pro Logic is a decoding format that redirects the midrange sounds not directed clearly to the L or R channels into the center channel. Dolby Surround remains the encoding format. Next time you look at a DVD package, look for the Dolby Surround track. You'll notice that it's referred to as a 2.0 format, and that's because it has only two discrete channels. This is why Dolby Surround and Pro Logic are not referred to as "4.0" or "5.0" formats.

    DTS and DD are digital carrier formats, and while they are capable of multichannel 5.1 or 6.1 playback, they will also often carry 2.0 Dolby Surround soundtracks. In other words, it is possible to have 2.0 Dolby Digital or 2.0 DTS.

  17. #17
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    3,326
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Well, I dont see anyone else stepping up to the plate to declare so......hence, here is the resident DVD reviewer! If you need some English language clarification classes at the college level, I can only offer this in return: this does NOT mean I need to get paid for such services, but that I CONTRIBUTE to such a board. .
    I assure you my English is quite good enough to get your very unsubtle points. Now I'll give you some clarification, and a word of caution; After reading the body of your post, and it's tone, you are dangerously close to me considering your post to be a personal attack. Personal attacks are not allowed on the Audioreview.com Forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Argue about WHAT? You are still not making any sense here nor providing any further evidence regarding exactly what it is you are referring to.....it's okay for people to ARGUE about statements I am making based on TECHNICAL BRIEFS that don't allow themselves to be open to ridicule OR argument or judgement? These are just technical overviews, so where is the arguing coming from; this is again where you have lost me. Take a deep breath and try and calmly address this.....
    I see nothing here that leads me to believe that your posts are intrinsically more accurate than anybody else posts. Far from it. To me, Woochifer presents a much more coherent and factual argument on the points discussed. Perhaps it's you who should take a deep breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Im not really expressing opinions, lets begin with that-----Im providing results I am finding after reviewing discs; they are not MEANT to begin bickering arguments at all, and when did I say anything about public backlash? You MAY need to point this out for me if it is indeed imbedded within the thread rhetoric.
    Even though you've given yourself the title of "Resident DVD Reviewer" ALL of your posts are your opinions ONLY. They do not represent the opinions of Audioreview.com, or are to be considered any more valid than any other Forum members post. The words "public backlash" are YOUR words, taken directly from YOUR post, so if your looking for rhetoric you have no further to look than your own posts.
    Last edited by Geoffcin; 08-06-2005 at 04:40 PM.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  18. #18
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Posts
    459
    why does everyone on this forum just start fights?

  19. #19
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,994
    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Gotta agree here. I hate movies that are loaded with useless pre-views. I don't pay for commercials. Personally I find 90% of bonus features a disgusting waste of time, effort, and space.

    In the end I think it's a cost thing, single disc DVD's just don't have the space, and double-disc units often fetch a premium. Too bad. I like how Gladiator did it...bonus features on the 2nd DVD, good stuff on the first.
    I'm with you. I almost never watch any bogas{bonus} stuff. One i did like and had some really good stuff was T W of Oz.
    Look & Listen

  20. #20
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    6,826
    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    why does everyone on this forum just start fights?
    I don't think that is the case at all. The level of expertise that some members have requires that information in posts are accurate and to date. Any website like that will invite debate of various levels. HTF, audioholics, and AVS all have the same tone as this site. All of these sites are populated by VERY knowledgeable people.

    We do have our share of presumptious personalities here, and often they have the air let out of them shortly after their arrival.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  21. #21
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,994
    LexMark,you sure get a hair up your a$$ easy. OBTW,i perfer DTS.
    Look & Listen

  22. #22
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    cincinnati, ohio
    Posts
    74

    Cool

    Everyone has made good points, but i think that peoples questions get lost among who knows what or who knows more. that's not the point of these forums i just wanted to know why universal does not add DTS to some of there titles that should have both DD & DTS unlike alot of there funny movies & regular dramas that don't have much use for surround other than music cues & minor back ground sound .that's what i was asking about.

  23. #23
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    6,826
    Quote Originally Posted by steamboy 2
    Everyone has made good points, but i think that peoples questions get lost among who knows what or who knows more. that's not the point of these forums i just wanted to know why universal does not add DTS to some of there titles that should have both DD & DTS unlike alot of there funny movies & regular dramas that don't have much use for surround other than music cues & minor back ground sound .that's what i was asking about.
    IMO, the differences between DD and Dts are readily apparent when a system of 5 full range speakers are used with no bass management. I can configure my system in this fashion(but don't) and I found that the bass quality in each is quite different sounding to my ears.

    With the subs handling only the LFE, each channel handling their own bass, and Twister special edition as my source because they were laid down using the same printmaster at each formats highest data rate.

    I found that with the configuration listed above that Dts clearly had more detail in the bass, and it was clearly audible. You could distinctly hear the different timbres of bass, the dynamic shades, clear growls, low frequency bumps and blurps coming from the Dts mix. DD sound all smushed together with absolutely no distinction between the different elements that made up the mix. Dts bass was tighter, deeper(according to my RTA) and just sounded more refined. Spatial speaking IMO it wasn't really that close to my ears. Dts's soundfield was wider across the front, deeper front to back(in the front and surround channels) and more coherent. The music sounded cleaner(and actually imaged well) with Dts.

    So IMO even with the playing field level, Dts comes out on top according to my ears.

    As far as why Dts is used on some DVD's and not others in a nonsense kind of way, I would think it highly depends on space, how much extras, and what DVD format is going to be used. If a DVD is pretty light on extra's, and is using multiple layers or disc most studio's add a Dts soundtrack to give the DVD added value. Sometimes the decision isn't sound driven at all, which is the reason some comedies have Dts soundtracks.

    Dts is a value added option IMO, when it really should be the standard.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 56
    Last Post: 08-09-2005, 04:32 PM
  2. Replies: 59
    Last Post: 07-15-2005, 09:42 AM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-02-2005, 02:51 PM
  4. A DVD REVIEW: CASINO - ANNIVERSARY EDITION (Universal)
    By Lexmark3200 in forum Favorite Films
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-30-2005, 10:08 PM
  5. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-18-2005, 07:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •