Should I buy an SACD player?

[BillyB]

Do you plan on using a blind fold in this test ?

No, I might trip when going to change the CD from one player to the other.

[BillyB]

Well I spent 2 hours this afternoon listening to the Sony and my Arcam 192T using CD's that I know like the back of my hand.The Arcam was superior to the Sony in every way possible as I had my wife switch the input switch without telling me which player was being used.I was able to guess which player was on everytime and I couldn't figure out a fairer way to test the 2 players.I know Woochifer would tell me if I knew what player I put the CD in I would automatically tell myself the Arcam was better if I knew it was playing.They couldn't have sounded any more different as the upsampling Arcam 192T made short work of the Sony especially when playing back less than perfect recordings.The Sony actually made my whole system sound horrible as the Quads I have grown to love really didn't mate well at all with the Sony as they are very refined speakers that are very sensitive to equipment changes.The sound was harsh and listener fatigue set in very quick with the Sony as the louder I played it the more painful it became.I like my music loud so when I don't like what I'm hearing it only becomes worse at the volume I enjoy my music at.This test was actually kind of rewarding as it erased any doubts this thread may have put in my head about my Arcam being worth it's expensive price tag.At $1600 is it 16 times better than the $100 Sony.I would say not but it was so much smoother in my system that I am depressed I have to re-install the Sony back into my secondary system as I'm now sure that my Sherwood reciever would definitely sound better if I ditched the Sony.I may give it to my son and buy a different player for my garage system as I get to play that system more than my good system as it doesn't annoy the family as much out there.Systems are all about properly matched components which is why I thought this suggestion was so absurd in the first place.Your CD player and your speakers are even more important than what's providing the power so why would this cheap player sound good when mated to an otherwise very solid system.It became the weak link and while you guys will certainly still feel the need to debate this the Sony I own is junk.I guess the next thing Woochifer will suggest is that my Sony CDP might be defective just like my interconnects were defective or improperly hooked up causing this fine player to not sound as good as it should.I'd like to think by now you guys have figured out I actually know what I'm doing so I'm not going to blast away at you with I told you so's.Pick on a Newbie Woochifer as that would make for a debate you could come out of looking like this audio guru you make yourself out to be with all your technical talk about many years of experience making crummy equipment sound mint with sound processing equipment.That's it guys so blast away as I'm not some rookie who is overwhelmed by techno-babble and I can take being the only guy in this thread defending higher end equipment and the results it can bring if you're willing to take a chance here and there with equipment purchases.I'm confident my system would hold it's own with any system in the 5K range and definitely out-perform cheaper systems regardless of who's tweaking them or what they're tweaking them with. It's been a good day.

[musicman1999]

Well that was entertaining,just stop those long paragraphs,hard to read.
Billyb
In my system I have your Arcams little brother the cd73t and I also have a Sony cd player(SACD actually,but a cheap older one).I have compared the 2 players extensively and of course the Arcam is better in every way when compared to the Sony playing back cds that is.SACD is of course a different story as that format will better the cd format.SACD's,like cds are not all created equal,some sound great some do not,depends on how well they are recorded.If you love classical music,SACD is the way to go,lots of new releases.

bill

[anamorphic96]

Since your wife was switching the sources why not use the blind fold and eliminate all bias.

No disrespect intended but without the blind fold, the test is questionable. Not trying to start a big fight. Why didn't you use one.

[Carl Reid]

Since your wife was switching the sources why not use the blind fold and eliminate all bias.

No disrespect intended but without the blind fold, the test is questionable. Not trying to start a big fight. Why didn't you use one.

I think he was joking about the whole blindfold thing... since he talked about tripping over the CD player... I'm sure he at least closed his eyes or wasn't looking at which CD player was playing...

[Feanor]

Well I spent 2 hours this afternoon listening to the Sony and my Arcam 192T using CD's that I know like the back of my hand.The Arcam was superior to the Sony in every way possible as I had my wife switch the input switch without telling me which player was being used.I was able to guess which player was on everytime and I couldn't figure out a fairer way to test the 2 players.I know Woochifer would tell me if I knew what player I put the CD in I would automatically tell myself the Arcam was better if I knew it was playing.They couldn't have sounded any more different as the upsampling Arcam 192T made short work of the Sony especially when playing back less than perfect recordings.
...
Your CD player and your speakers are even more important than what's providing the power so why would this cheap player sound good when mated to an otherwise very solid system.
...
Pick on a Newbie Woochifer as that would make for a debate you could come out of looking like this audio guru you make yourself out to be with all your technical talk about many years of experience making crummy equipment sound mint with sound processing equipment
...
and I can take being the only guy in this thread defending higher end equipment and the results it can bring if you're willing to take a chance here and there with equipment purchases.
... It's been a good day.

And although the results don't surprised either your or me, the principle remains that blind testing is the only objective way to judge the relative merits of equipment. (Nor will I quibble over your testing method; I'll assume there was not way for your wife to inadvertantly indicate which unit was playing, and that you had no clues such as different mechnical sounds that might have suggest one or the other.)

It remains invalid, however, to extrapolate you Sony vs. Arcam findings to all inexpensive vs. higher-cost equipment. Squander $150 on an Oppo; squander $25 on a good, DSD-mastered SACD recording, (I could name a few if you like classical music), and conduct a test like the above. 2-ch SACD on the Oppo versus CD on the Arcam; might as well do the CD on the Oppo too. You might be surprised.

Personally I have found amplifiers typically have a greater impact on the overall sound than digital sources, though I will concede this isn't always the case. You apparently do have a good ear, (given you can reliably tell the difference between CD plays), so I recommend looking at amplifiers upgrades next. To be honest, I think this will yield more result than going 2-ch SACD. Of course, for a worthwile amp upgrade your are definitely talking equipment more expensive than the Rotel. I'm sure you find that reassuring -- oh yeah, there a plenty of people around here who believe more expensive produces better sound most of the time.

With apology, since you are still have trouble with paragraph breaks, I have edit in a few in my quote, above.

[BillyB]

Well that was entertaining,just stop those long paragraphs,hard to read.
Billyb
In my system I have your Arcams little brother the cd73t and I also have a Sony cd player(SACD actually,but a cheap older one).I have compared the 2 players extensively and of course the Arcam is better in every way when compared to the Sony playing back cds that is.SACD is of course a different story as that format will better the cd format.SACD's,like cds are not all created equal,some sound great some do not,depends on how well they are recorded.If you love classical music,SACD is the way to go,lots of new releases.

bill

You're right about the paragraphs as when I reread the thread for reference purposes I find I have to re-read my own posts to catch everything.You're the first guy that mentioned this in a polite way instead of telling me I have bad grammar.I'm no dummy. I just have that bad habit of writing style as I don't have the patience to figure out where the subject has changed enough to warrant a new paragraph and I type slow enough to begin with..Enjoy your Arcam and yes after all this I will still consider an SACD player as I love researching,buying, and using audio equipment as it's the only true hobby I have.I'm self-employed and work insane hours.It would go in my second system though as I'm out of shelf space in my main system and it's certainly not replacing my Arcam in that system.Classical music is the one type of music that I truly don't listen to as I've heard just what you said about the selection issues based on music style.My stance in this thread was really never about SACD's not being any good, but rather Redbook CD's sounding better on conventional high quality CD players.The thread didn't become evil until Woochifer jumped on me and that is why I'm giving it back to him with both barrels.Take care.

[BillyB]

And although the results don't surprised either your or me, the principle remains that blind testing is the only objective way to judge the relative merits of equipment. (Nor will I quibble over your testing method; I'll assume there was not way for your wife to inadvertantly indicate which unit was playing, and that you had no clues such as different mechnical sounds that might have suggest one or the other.)

It remains invalid, however, to extrapolate you Sony vs. Arcam findings to all inexpensive vs. higher-cost equipment. Squander $150 on an Oppo; squander $25 on a good, DSD-mastered SACD recording, (I could name a few if you like classical music), and conduct a test like the above. 2-ch SACD on the Oppo versus CD on the Arcam; might as well do the CD on the Oppo too. You might be surprised.

Personally I have found amplifiers typically have a greater impact on the overall sound than digital sources, though I will concede this isn't always the case. You apparently do have a good ear, (given you can reliably tell the difference between CD plays), so I recommend looking at amplifiers upgrades next. To be honest, I think this will yield more result than going 2-ch SACD. Of course, for a worthwile amp upgrade your are definitely talking equipment more expensive than the Rotel. I'm sure you find that reassuring -- oh yeah, there a plenty of people around here who believe more expensive produces better sound most of the time.

With apology, since you are still have trouble with paragraph breaks, I have edit in a few in my quote, above.

I guess my writing style is really throwing you off.Please re-read this thread.My reciever is in my second system which is literally in my garage.I bought the Sherwood reciever knowing it would be adequate for a garage and backyard stereo source.I don't like recievers in principle as they dedicate an entire function to a tuner that I'll never use(unless it's an XM tuner)which I consider a waste of circuitry..My main system as I have made clear has reached a point where I love it.Why in Gods name would I mess with success and play with replacing my amp.Rotel makes good amps and my RB-980BX happens to have a reputation for being a sweet piece.It's 14 years old and still is in demand in the used audio market.Amps are probably the slowest changing technology in audio products so being outdated is not a problem.They can last indefinitely and shouldn't be replaced unless a major upgrade is in order.My system already cost me about 6K and now you're flip-flopping and telling me I need to consider a more expensive amp.Doesn't that contradict the you can do more with less money theme you and Woochifer have been drilling into me.I'm not familiar with Oppo products but if you're telling me they make a good player(SACD) for that price I'm intrigued.I figured if I went this route I would end up with Marantz and end up spending at least $300 which may not be necessary.You already made your point once about my writing style. I have no problem with you taking shots at my audio opinions as I can more than hold my own in that dept.Going forward I'll work on breaking up the subject changes into separate paragraphs.In the mean time just pay closer attention to what I"m saying..Read my posts very slowly and you might even learn something from me if you focus more on the content not the grammar style.

[shokhead]

Well I spent 2 hours this afternoon listening to the Sony and my Arcam 192T using CD's that I know like the back of my hand.The Arcam was superior to the Sony in every way possible as I had my wife switch the input switch without telling me which player was being used.I was able to guess which player was on everytime and I couldn't figure out a fairer way to test the 2 players.I know Woochifer would tell me if I knew what player I put the CD in I would automatically tell myself the Arcam was better if I knew it was playing.They couldn't have sounded any more different as the upsampling Arcam 192T made short work of the Sony especially when playing back less than perfect recordings.The Sony actually made my whole system sound horrible as the Quads I have grown to love really didn't mate well at all with the Sony as they are very refined speakers that are very sensitive to equipment changes.The sound was harsh and listener fatigue set in very quick with the Sony as the louder I played it the more painful it became.I like my music loud so when I don't like what I'm hearing it only becomes worse at the volume I enjoy my music at.This test was actually kind of rewarding as it erased any doubts this thread may have put in my head about my Arcam being worth it's expensive price tag.At $1600 is it 16 times better than the $100 Sony.I would say not but it was so much smoother in my system that I am depressed I have to re-install the Sony back into my secondary system as I'm now sure that my Sherwood reciever would definitely sound better if I ditched the Sony.I may give it to my son and buy a different player for my garage system as I get to play that system more than my good system as it doesn't annoy the family as much out there.Systems are all about properly matched components which is why I thought this suggestion was so absurd in the first place.Your CD player and your speakers are even more important than what's providing the power so why would this cheap player sound good when mated to an otherwise very solid system.It became the weak link and while you guys will certainly still feel the need to debate this the Sony I own is junk.I guess the next thing Woochifer will suggest is that my Sony CDP might be defective just like my interconnects were defective or improperly hooked up causing this fine player to not sound as good as it should.I'd like to think by now you guys have figured out I actually know what I'm doing so I'm not going to blast away at you with I told you so's.Pick on a Newbie Woochifer as that would make for a debate you could come out of looking like this audio guru you make yourself out to be with all your technical talk about many years of experience making crummy equipment sound mint with sound processing equipment.That's it guys so blast away as I'm not some rookie who is overwhelmed by techno-babble and I can take being the only guy in this thread defending higher end equipment and the results it can bring if you're willing to take a chance here and there with equipment purchases.I'm confident my system would hold it's own with any system in the 5K range and definitely out-perform cheaper systems regardless of who's tweaking them or what they're tweaking them with. It's been a good day.

Hope you were not using the dig connection.

[Rock789]

...First, if you're completely content with 2-channel, I earnestly recommend you stick with your Arcam. On the basis of probability, IMO ...

• ...
• You will hear no improvement playing 2-ch SACD on such a univeral player over CD on your Arcam;
• An expensive SACD player will sound no better playing CDs than your Arcam;
• The improvement from an expensive SACD player playing 2-ch SACD over your Arcam playing CD would be negligible.

...

a ~$500 sacd player "should" provide a noticable improvement when playing an sacd when compared to a cd in a "good" cd player... ("good" cd player being ones I have auditoned around and less than $1000)
at least this is from my experience.

Well I spent 2 hours this afternoon listening to the Sony and my Arcam 192T using CD's that I know like the back of my hand.

did you have fun or was it more of a nuisance?
although the results I get from doing such tests don't always come out the way I had planned, I ususally always have a good time... just sometimes kick myself for spending a lot of money on something...lol

[Rock789]

wever, to extrapolate you Sony vs. Arcam findings to all inexpensive vs. higher-cost equipment. Squander $150 on an Oppo; squander $25 on a good, DSD-mastered SACD recording, (I could name a few if you like classical music), and conduct a test like the above. 2-ch SACD on the Oppo versus CD on the Arcam; might as well do the CD on the Oppo too. You might be surprised.

I was looking at the new oppo upconverting to 1080p dvd player and did see it plays sacd...
how does this actually sound?
I would guess it is a large step below my marantz, but I have not found and reviews regarding sacd playback, only found reviews for dvd upconversion...
thanks,
Mike

[BillyB]

a ~$500 sacd player "should" provide a noticable improvement when playing an sacd when compared to a cd in a "good" cd player... ("good" cd player being ones I have auditoned around and less than $1000)
at least this is from my experience.

did you have fun or was it more of a nuisance?
although the results I get from doing such tests don't always come out the way I had planned, I ususally always have a good time... just sometimes kick myself for spending a lot of money on something...lol

It actually was more like work.Listening to music of course is supposed to be enjoyable.When the audition stuff starts you really have to focus on the quality of the piece instead of the music that you love.I was very thorough when I did it as I wanted to be sure my reply to this challenge was fair and accurate.The enjoyable part was at the end when I realised how much better my Arcam was.No kicking myself in this particular situation.The Arcam192T is a $1600 upsampling player with the key word being upsampling player.It uses 4 wolfson 7840 DAC's and the upsampling theory is mainly based on it's ability to tone down the older harsh CD recordings while also improving overall sound.I listen to mostly older Progressive rock and those masters can be pretty brutal.That is what I based my decision to buy the 192T on as contrary to what these guys are trying to imply I don't believe in wasting my money on overpriced audio components.Arcam is not just charging you for nothing based on their name alone.There is some serious hardware inside that chasis.You really can't get a reputable upsampling player in the under $1000 range you mentioned.Of course if you don't believe in the theories behind upsampling that is a different story.Lets leave the upsampling debate for a different day as I don't have the energy to get involved with whether or not upsampling players are actually better.I can already see that one coming.

[shokhead]

So it makes badly mastered cds sound better?

[BillyB]

So it makes badly mastered cds sound better?

Compared to lesser players definitely.

[BillyB]

Just wanted to let you know Feanor on a less combative note I bought that $150 OPPO 970HD universal DVD player today.I had to buy it sight unseen as it is direct purchase only.I will a new DVD player for the plasma I'm buying and after checking into this unit it became a no-brainer

The professional reviews on this player for DVD playback are astounding at it's price point.It's feature laden with upconversion using HDMI with supplied HDMI cable and plays virtually every DVD format you can think of.Very slim and nice looking unit as the model above this one recieved one of the highest ratings ever recieved for DVD playback at only $50 more.

I picked this one because even though it's $50 less than the next model it has more format compatibility.It will play HDCD's as well as SACD's(even sounded like it could play multi-channel SACD's but I'm not positive on that one)They allow you to turn off the video functions on this unit to create a disrete audio circuit which is a very nice feature.Audio playback apparantly is better than one would expect considering it's strength is DVD playback.

I will be using it primarily for DVD formats but I'll get to try SACD's now without buying another player.This player was a perfect fit for me right now and I want to thank you for mentioning it to me.I've never bought a digital product without trying it out but at this price if it's half as good as they say it is it will be a great purchase.Believe it or not I do like a bargain when I can find one I think is for real.Some very real sources think this product might be the best value in electronics on the market right now.US company that's made in China.Nothing unusual about that.

Anyway just wanted to let others know you can buy this unit directly from OPPO's website for $150 plus about $13 shipping.I bought it from Amazon for the same price with free shipping.They don't currently have it in stock but I'm in no rush for it and have had great luck with Amazon's service.They seem to always get things to me earlier than their projected lead time.

[bobsticks]

Hey Billy B,

Thanks for the hook-up. Never thought about going to Oppo directly.

I've been thinking about one for a secondary system. I'll be interested to read your impressions.

[Feanor]

Just wanted to let you know Feanor on a less combative note I bought that $150 OPPO 970HD universal DVD player today.I had to buy it sight unseen as it is direct purchase only.I will a new DVD player for the plasma I'm buying and after checking into this unit it became a no-brainer.
...

This is a shrewd move given that you ought to get good use of it out of it as a DVD player at least. But by all means try it as both a CD and SACD player. For my part, I'm pretty sure that you will prefer your Arcam over the Oppo. However it might be pretty close with the Oppo playing 2-ch SACD vs. the Arcaom playing CD

To reiterate an earlier suggestion for the SACD comparison, choose a recent, DSD-recorded and mastered production, or maybe a DSD-remaster from analog tape.. Certainly avoid non-DSC, digitally recorded and/or mastered recordings -- some PCM-masters are very good, but why muddy the waters?

[Woochifer]

Well I spent 2 hours this afternoon listening to the Sony and my Arcam 192T using CD's that I know like the back of my hand.The Arcam was superior to the Sony in every way possible as I had my wife switch the input switch without telling me which player was being used.I was able to guess which player was on everytime and I couldn't figure out a fairer way to test the 2 players.I know Woochifer would tell me if I knew what player I put the CD in I would automatically tell myself the Arcam was better if I knew it was playing.

Congratulations, you're actually learning something (even if you had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the process). If you'd actually indicated that you were willing to try a more valid test for yourself rather than persist in lashing out at people's systems, you might have actually managed to keep the tone of the discussion at a more civil level. My contention was never about your conclusions that the Arcam was "better" than your Sony, it was your method of arriving at that conclusion without having ever directly compared them. Now you have, and you have your answer. So long as you investigate your contentions for yourself, I don't take issue with the conclusions.

Your CD player and your speakers are even more important than what's providing the power so why would this cheap player sound good when mated to an otherwise very solid system.It became the weak link and while you guys will certainly still feel the need to debate this the Sony I own is junk.I guess the next thing Woochifer will suggest is that my Sony CDP might be defective just like my interconnects were defective or improperly hooked up causing this fine player to not sound as good as it should.I'd like to think by now you guys have figured out I actually know what I'm doing so I'm not going to blast away at you with I told you so's.

Why would you feel this need to prove that you "actually know what [you're] doing" when you were simply doing the comparison that others had suggested that you do all along? The fact that you were making all of these assertions without actually doing a valid comparison indicates to me that you in fact DID NOT know what you were doing when you made these assertions. Now that you've actually done the comparison, you know more than you did before.

Pick on a Newbie Woochifer as that would make for a debate you could come out of looking like this audio guru you make yourself out to be with all your technical talk about many years of experience making crummy equipment sound mint with sound processing equipment.That's it guys so blast away as I'm not some rookie who is overwhelmed by techno-babble and I can take being the only guy in this thread defending higher end equipment and the results it can bring if you're willing to take a chance here and there with equipment purchases.I'm confident my system would hold it's own with any system in the 5K range and definitely out-perform cheaper systems regardless of who's tweaking them or what they're tweaking them with. It's been a good day.

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here. As Feanor already pointed out, you did a valid test on two components that you own, and how far you can generalize this to include all other entry level components is quite limited. Plus, you still haven't answered for a lot of other highly questionable assertions and generalizations on your posts in this thread (e.g., your points about that XM tuner and the magnitude of differences between turntables being no different than with CD players). Just because you successfully performed one listening test that we can agree on does not suddenly make all of your claims the final authority.

My stance in this thread was really never about SACD's not being any good, but rather Redbook CD's sounding better on conventional high quality CD players.The thread didn't become evil until Woochifer jumped on me and that is why I'm giving it back to him with both barrels.Take care.

Whatever. If you check the thread, all that I did was simply ask you some questions about how you arrived at your conclusions, and for whatever reason that's when all of your defensive whining and accusations started.

If you think that doing a listening test between your CD players is "giving it back to [me] with both barrels" that's a rather cute description since you were doing what I (and others) had suggested that you do in the first place! And even there, that listening test says absolutely nothing about how a SACD player would perform with CDs.

Oh, and keep in mind that stating an opinion about audio and asking someone to provide clarification/substantiation for questionable statements is not "evil." It's not like this "evil" thread is stealing from you or doing bodily harm to members of your family.

Just wanted to let you know Feanor on a less combative note I bought that $150 OPPO 970HD universal DVD player today.I had to buy it sight unseen as it is direct purchase only.I will a new DVD player for the plasma I'm buying and after checking into this unit it became a no-brainer

Friend of mine has that Oppo 971. Very solid DVD player all the way around, although with the 970, the SACD performance might not measure up to other units because I believe that player transcodes the DSD stream into PCM before the audio signal gets output (i.e., the SACD is not decoded in its native format). Even so, you'll still benefit from any improvements to the quality of the transfer/mastering with individual SACD titles. Plus, you have the option of playing DVD-A (several Yes titles are available, and at least a couple from ELP) on that player.

[BillyB]

Congratulations, you're actually learning something (even if you had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the process). If you'd actually indicated that you were willing to try a more valid test for yourself rather than persist in lashing out at people's systems, you might have actually managed to keep the tone of the discussion at a more civil level. My contention was never about your conclusions that the Arcam was "better" than your Sony, it was your method of arriving at that conclusion without having ever directly compared them. Now you have, and you have your answer. So long as you investigate your contentions for yourself, I don't take issue with the conclusions.



Why would you feel this need to prove that you "actually know what [you're] doing" when you were simply doing the comparison that others had suggested that you do all along? The fact that you were making all of these assertions without actually doing a valid comparison indicates to me that you in fact DID NOT know what you were doing when you made these assertions. Now that you've actually done the comparison, you know more than you did before.



Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here. As Feanor already pointed out, you did a valid test on two components that you own, and how far you can generalize this to include all other entry level components is quite limited. Plus, you still haven't answered for a lot of other highly questionable assertions and generalizations on your posts in this thread (e.g., your points about that XM tuner and the magnitude of differences between turntables being no different than with CD players). Just because you successfully performed one listening test that we can agree on does not suddenly make all of your claims the final authority.



Whatever. If you check the thread, all that I did was simply ask you some questions about how you arrived at your conclusions, and for whatever reason that's when all of your defensive whining and accusations started.

If you think that doing a listening test between your CD players is "giving it back to [me] with both barrels" that's a rather cute description since you were doing what I (and others) had suggested that you do in the first place! And even there, that listening test says absolutely nothing about how a SACD player would perform with CDs.

Oh, and keep in mind that stating an opinion about audio and asking someone to provide clarification/substantiation for questionable statements is not "evil." It's not like this "evil" thread is stealing from you or doing bodily harm to members of your family.



Friend of mine has that Oppo 971. Very solid DVD player all the way around, although with the 970, the SACD performance might not measure up to other units because I believe that player transcodes the DSD stream into PCM before the audio signal gets output (i.e., the SACD is not decoded in its native format). Even so, you'll still benefit from any improvements to the quality of the transfer/mastering with individual SACD titles. Plus, you have the option of playing DVD-A (several Yes titles are available, and at least a couple from ELP) on that player.

I did get the impression when researching this unit there was some sort of compromise regarding the SACD playback.Just wasn't sure what it was since I'm not up to speed on the SACD format in a technical way.It seemed like an awfully reasonable way to get the feet wet in that dept.

My biggest problem is it was work getting the plasma purchase past my better half so I'll have to wait a while before I can connect it to a good A/V set-up to give the Oppo a fair chance in the audio dept.My upstairs HT is real bare bones as the Denon reciever is OK but I have HT in a box infinity speakers that are the weak spot.Not the right system to give SACD(especially multi-channel) a fair shot.

The plasma is going in a playroom in a finished basement that has much better acoustics for home theatre.When I put this set-up together I really want to nail it as the Panasonic 50" plasma will be just the start of the HT goal.I want to get a real good A/V reciever and complement it with some real good speakers as opposed to the speakers in a box set-up I bought for upstairs.

Not sure if I understood your explanation about the SACD playback on the Oppo unit.Do you know if it plays back multi-channel SACD's properly or was your point simply that it doesn't or at least not properly.I did pay close attention to it's features and specs but they didn't seem to specifically distinguish this feature.

I think we can safely say this thread is back in a place where it is productive for all of us..As far as me learning something I can only say that no-one is above learning things in this hobby.As soon as any of us think we know all there is to know that is when we ourselves become unable to learn anything going forward.You have something to offer to other members here just as I can certainly can be of help to others epecially regarding straight-up 2 channel audio.I did learn things about SACD regardless of whether or not It ever becomes something I get heavily involved with.I will have a more open mind regarding this format going forward. I'd like to think you also realise that 2 channel audio purists like myself also have something worthy to offer here.It's not even about spending 5 to 10K either as it's more about a more traditional approach to music playback. I am open to learning as I hope you are as well regardless of your reputation here as being more knowledgable that most of the other members.No-one knows it all.I'm an experienced home remodeler with 20 years experience and there are still days when I stumble upon a better way to do something that I thought I already had nailed down.You told me to try the Sony in the same system as the Arcam and I did and formed an educated opinion.I don't know what you mean by saying there are still variables I didn't consider.The rest of the system stayed the exact same and was played in the same room with the same acoustics.Don't want to spar anymore just not sure what else I could have done to make the test any more straight up.I can't imagine the point of me telling myself my system is better than it is just to impress you guys.Point being some humility is required to keep the learning process alive and that applies to us all.

[BillyB]

Hey Billy B,

Thanks for the hook-up. Never thought about going to Oppo directly.

I've been thinking about one for a secondary system. I'll be interested to read your impressions.

Looks like a very nice player for the money.It also has a card reader built into it which is just gravy.As best I could find out you simply can't buy this unit in the stores so you either feel it's worth taking a chance on or not.According to Amazon I may not have this thing for at least a month, but as I said they've told me this many times before on other items and usually pleasantly surprise me with a quicker delivery date.If you want it quicker I thought oppo's shipping rates were very reasonable.You have the same exact situation as me.I have a the Sony upconversion DVD player(unsure what model off hand but it retails for $125)connected to my Sony wega and it's not bad.I just wanted something totally different for the plasma.Absolutely on the posting impressions once I get to use it.Interesting note on this unit is that some reviewers were saying that the $1000 blue-ray which delivers true 1080P didn't always out-perform this unit for picture quality.I found that very interesting.Take care.

[Rock789]

I may have to take a look at some "up converting" cd players as I have not done so yet...

let us know how you like the oppo!
I may be getting the 1080p version here soon ;o)

depends whether I go for a 1080p monitor...

[Woochifer]

Not sure if I understood your explanation about the SACD playback on the Oppo unit.Do you know if it plays back multi-channel SACD's properly or was your point simply that it doesn't or at least not properly.I did pay close attention to it's features and specs but they didn't seem to specifically distinguish this feature.

I believe that Oppo uses Cirrus Logic DACs in their player, which I know can only process PCM signals (the digital format used by CD and DVD-A). Without a separate DSD decoder on board or a combo DAC that can natively process both DSD (the digital format used by SACD) and PCM signals like the Burr-Brown 1791, the SACD's DSD bitstream gets converted into PCM before the audio decoding. Some have argued that you don't get the full potential of SACD if it's converted first, while others have said that it doesn't make a big difference because the signal still gets decoded using very high resolution.

Either way, the Oppo has gotten some good reviews for its SACD playback, and you have the added benefit of being able to play DVD-A discs, which use as high a resolution as SACD and tend to have a larger library of pop and rock albums. The supposed advantage of SACD is that it uses a 1-bit datastream, and that better approximates an analog waveform -- hence, the common contention that it sounds more like good analog playback than a digital format. But, whether the disc is SACD or DVD-A, both are a huge step up in resolution over the CD format (with both formats capable of transcribing a digital master tape bit-for-bit with no downsampling or dithering, depending on if it was originally recorded in PCM or DSD), and provide new avenues to revisit old recordings that might have had poorly done CD transfers the first and even second time around.

I am open to learning as I hope you are as well regardless of your reputation here as being more knowledgable that most of the other members.No-one knows it all.I'm an experienced home remodeler with 20 years experience and there are still days when I stumble upon a better way to do something that I thought I already had nailed down.You told me to try the Sony in the same system as the Arcam and I did and formed an educated opinion.I don't know what you mean by saying there are still variables I didn't consider.The rest of the system stayed the exact same and was played in the same room with the same acoustics.Don't want to spar anymore just not sure what else I could have done to make the test any more straight up.I can't imagine the point of me telling myself my system is better than it is just to impress you guys.Point being some humility is required to keep the learning process alive and that applies to us all.

I'm always learning, and much of what I've already learned resulted from getting taken to the wood shed by some of the other members on this board. If I had nothing to answer for, I had no choice but to defer or find the answers for myself. It's through that process of seeking out answers that I wound up up with greater knowledge AND greater listening enjoyment in the end. Without a lot of help from others on this board, for example I would have given up on trying to use a subwoofer with my system a long time ago. With their input, I now can't imagine my system without one. You sought your own answer to a question, and now you have it. Nothing wrong with knowing more about what you own, especially if it confirms the wisdom of your purchase for yourself.

The only other control that I would add to how you conducted your comparison listening is a simple level matching with a SPL meter -- make sure that both components are evaluated at the same levels. Generally, people will gravitate to the louder component in a listening test, and the analog line levels for audio components can audibly vary.

[Dusty Chalk]

Hey, woochifer, which players use the Burr-Brown 1791?

[bobsticks]

Hey, woochifer, which players use the Burr-Brown 1791?

http:/www.unitedhomeproducts.com/id73htm

[Woochifer]

Hey, woochifer, which players use the Burr-Brown 1791?

I believe that most of Sony's SACD players except their top of the line models now use the Burr Browns (their top-of-the-line models and some other flagship universal players still use dedicated Sony DSD chips with a completely separate decoding section to handle PCM). It's also used on all of Denon's universal players, and on the universal players from Toshiba and Pioneer (although I read that Toshiba and Pioneer's newer entry level universal players no longer use the Burr-Brown combo DACs and have gone back to transcoding the SACD DSD signals to PCM). Arcam used that DAC on their CD72 (which has been replaced by the CD73, which uses a Wolfson DAC), and Burr-Browns have been used on several other high end CD players, but I'm not sure about the model numbers.

That combo DAC is also used on several midlevel and flagship receivers. I suspect that these chips might grow in popularity as more multichannel (and even two-channel) components start using HDMI connections and get around the copy protection restrictions built into the DVD-A and SACD formats. HDMI will allow high end external DACs to be used with DVD-A and SACD.