Receiver Vs. PC

[echo]

Hi

I'm trying to figure out a way to send quality-audio from my computer to my receiver. I originally thought that the DAC in the receiver were far better than one could find in an soundcard (for a decent price), but I've now read that that isn't the case at all. Or is it?

Anyway, the receiver is an Yamaha RX-V1500.
Specs:
http://reviews.cnet.com/Yamaha_RX_V1...5.html?tag=sub
http://www.yamaha.ca/av/PDFs/Receive...0_brochure.jsp

Since I thought that the receiver would have the best DAC I planned on getting an untouched digital signal through SPDIF from the computer to the receiver. That did however prove to be extremely difficult when combining the applications that I use (MCE). So the most straightforwad thing would be to just get a good enough soundcard for the computer that perferably is better than the receiver.
Any idea what that would cost me?

Eventhough stereo has a higher priority surround will be used so it should be a surround card dealing with atleast 4 channels (perhaps more to leave some room? Or is that just a waste and something to think about when/if new equipment is bought?).

A temporary setup:


The computer has been moved to a closet in the hallway (about 5 meter cable is needed). The main speakers are couple CM-3's (I really have no idea what I'm talking about here but thats what I think it is, I'll look it up).

Budget?
Well, that depends on whats needed. My non-educated guess was around $140 but if there are much better alternatives higher up I might have no choice

Thankful for any suggestions

[noddin0ff]

Hi- Welcome!

You might want to try posting this to the Computer Audio section for more comments on soundcards.

I'm not familiar with what's available in the area of high-end sound cards. I'm sure if you pay the big bucks you can do very well. But, my inclination would be to go with your first thought and run a digital out to your receiver. Many on this forum are very happy with Yamaha's on-board DAC's.

If you want more than that, my next suggestion would be to purchase a dedicated external DAC rather than an expensive sound card. You can buy them new or used. The advantages being 1) relative value and 2) moving the processing away from the electronically noisey enviroment inside the computer. But I would wait and see how you like the Yamaha first.

Finally, if you are using compressed files (MP3). You're biggest sonic improvements are going to come from using higher bitrates (<192mbps is very poor, some don't hear much difference at the 250 cut off) for encoding. Preferrably, use lossless compression formats. The encoding improvements will far outweigh the DAC improvements until you go lossless. Then you can start thinking DAC improvements.

my 2 cents.

[echo]

Thanks

Oh, there was a computer-section. Completely missed it (possible to move this thread?)

The problem with using the DACs in the yamaha is that Media Center uses Windows Media Player. And getting Windows Media Player to output an untouched digital stream is quite difficult.
Also you would have to go into the driversettings everytime you need to change between stereo and surround, not that convenient and it does not scale that high on the WAF (basically that would mean that I'm the only one in the family capable of doing it ).
Also you would need an analog connection besides that for using when streaming TV and such.
One thing that I haven't confirmed working would be too have 2 external digital audiocards (they are the cheapest that only output true digital untouched signals, if you can find the *right* one) and the internal analogue one. One external for stereo, one for surround and the internal for TV and such things. Yeah, does seem quite overcomplicated I know and I bet there will be issues, thats why I'm leaning towards an non-digital approach. Under the assumption that I can get similar or better quality.

And I guess I would face the same problems when using an external DAC? (guess they don't take USB or something like that)
Although an external soundcard would work if it's connected though USB/firewire and since the computer is in a closet that really isn't a big deal so if that helps that wouldn't be a problem.

As far as the music goes everything is in lossless.
Currently WMA lossless though. I will look at using FLAC instead but I'd have to use an ogg container or something so that ID tags work, and then I'd just have to get everything to work in MCE

[noddin0ff]

Definitely create a new post in computer audio. There are lots of software options other than Media Center. I'm a Mac user and so not the best source of info for these options. Mike Anderson can likely set you on the path to the ultimate set up. Go FLAC, young man!

[Mike Anderson]

I see you've been excommunicated to the vast, emply, desolate and lonely region of the forum known as "Computer Audio".

I personally don't know the best solution for your budget, because I tend to spend more money on the things I do.

Without researching the options more intensively, I can at least HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you check out the Squeezebox:

http://www.slimdevices.com/index.html

You can get one for $250 (wireless for $300), so it's not too far out of your range. It has a very good DAC (probably better than your Yamaha), but it can also output an SPDIF digital signal.

It's a high quality unit for the price, and can handle a large number of different formats, including FLAC and WMA.

It's also an awesome way to manage your music -- you can operate it with a remote control, while your computer sits in the other room.

Take a serious look at it -- you're not going to get a more powerful, high quality setup for that kind of money.

[echo]

Thats one cool looking device

Although even if it is great it's hardly a perfect match. It does not handle surround and I've got no way to output anything from the computer directly through the device?
Haven't had the time to look it up too much but unless theres a strreaming mode that streams all sound going off the computer that won't work. And that will also limit it from playing movies or anything of that sort.

So it does seem to be paying alot for stuff that is already there, if you only buy it for the audio-output. It does appear to be a solid product but not for my uses.
I won't make use of the portability at all either so thats a waste, too.

Also, here in sweden I'd have to pay $407 (shipping not included) - for the wired version (I wouldn't go for wireless anyway). For that kind of money I really think that you would be able to get a *decent* soundcard.

I would perhaps be able to sell it to the family if it would be the answer to everything but unfortunately it hardly is and it also brings another device with it's remote to the livingroom that everyone has to learn.

For that amount of money I have a hard time believing that there isn't any soundcard that can beat it soundwise since that device is about so much more than the sound.

[Mike Anderson]

Although even if it is great it's hardly a perfect match. It does not handle surround and I've got no way to output anything from the computer directly through the device?

I don't know of a device that does Surround, at least for that budget. But then I know nothing about Surround either.

Re putting something directly through the device, I'm not sure what you mean. You don't need to put anything "directly through" it except for the network signal it already takes. You can do that with CAT5 cable, or wirelessly.

If you really want to generate an analog or SPDIF signal at the computer, you don't need this device, but you'll likely get inferior sound. Doing all that on the computer introduces noise, because of the computer's electronics.

Haven't had the time to look it up too much but unless theres a strreaming mode that streams all sound going off the computer that won't work. And that will also limit it from playing movies or anything of that sort.

You can always run a cord out of your sound card, in addition to the Squeezebox. It doesn't limit any other options.

I don't know much about the other sound card options.

[echo]

Re putting something directly through the device, I'm not sure what you mean. You don't need to put anything "directly through" it except for the network signal it already takes. You can do that with CAT5 cable, or wirelessly.

Meaning that you can't play a movie (for instance) and get any sound-output from the Squeezebox.

If I have understood everything correctly the Squeezebox is simply a (simple) computer that hasn't got any storage. The only thing you do is supply storage and it will work from that.

So playing something on your main PC is as transparent to the Squeezebox as having two computers in the same network and playing music on one of them.

If you really want to generate an analog or SPDIF signal at the computer, you don't need this device, but you'll likely get inferior sound. Doing all that on the computer introduces noise, because of the computer's electronics.

Although there are external soundcards. And they should theoretically be better suited (if you look at interference) for that than the Squeezebox since a Squeezebox packs so much more than just the audio part.
Don't know if there are any suitable external cards for my use though.

Is the interference in a computer that bad that I can't even get up to my receivers level?
I must say that I'm sceptical to that.

You can always run a cord out of your sound card, in addition to the Squeezebox. It doesn't limit any other options.

True. But since I would have to buy another soundcard for movies and such that surely sounds like a quite expensive solution (especially if we are talking bang for buck).

The budget isn't fixed. Don't know where the 'roof' would be but for a good solution $250 might not be a problem.

[Mike Anderson]

Meaning that you can't play a movie (for instance) and get any sound-output from the Squeezebox.

I *think* it may be possible to do this, although I haven't tried it. There's a whole forum devoted to this product, along with a lot of very smart peopleand engineers; you might inquire there:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/

This thread in particular addresses such issues:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...hlight=icecast

Looks like it takes a little work though.

If I have understood everything correctly the Squeezebox is simply a (simple) computer that hasn't got any storage. The only thing you do is supply storage and it will work from that.

I don't know if it's proper to characterize it as a computer (perhaps), but yes, there's no storage, it just works of what is stored on the computer, OR by taking a stream off the internet (e.g. internet radio).

So playing something on your main PC is as transparent to the Squeezebox as having two computers in the same network and playing music on one of them.

Yes, although as above, it's possible to mix them.

Although there are external soundcards. And they should theoretically be better suited (if you look at interference) for that than the Squeezebox since a Squeezebox packs so much more than just the audio part.
Don't know if there are any suitable external cards for my use though.

Right; neither do I, offhand, for your budget.

Is the interference in a computer that bad that I can't even get up to my receivers level?
I must say that I'm sceptical to that.

I'm talking about using a typical sound card that's installed on-board the computer.

Good luck, in any case.

[noddin0ff]

echo-

It sound's like you're looking for a soundcard that would basically do all the things your Yamaha already does. If you output digitally to the receiver then you don't need to spend a fortune on a soundcard. In the price range your suggesting, I don't think you'll be able to beat the processing in the Yamaha. Plus Yamaha has some of the better DSP modes for home theater.

I'm not sure if you are looking for 5.1 audio from a WMA output. You said the incompatability with the receiver was with WMA. Something doesn't make sense to me here. In my mind, for 2 channel audio, the software on your computer should be converting the WMA file to PCM and the PCM stream is what is digitally sent to the Yamaha (which handles PCM just fine). There should be no incompatability.

For movies, if you're playing DVD's on the laptop, your sound card will need to support and output digitally the appropriate format DD, DTS (SACD can not be digitally transmitted between components, copy protection). But that should not be hard to find. The receiver can handle those as well. The expense in a card is the D/A conversion, go digital out and you won't have to worry about it. I don't think you can do much more in the price you suggest, and I don't think you need to either.

The Yamaha is good. I really doubt you'd be dissapointed for movies or 2 channel. If you find your music listening is really critical then think about an external DAC. But get it up and running and take your time to decide.

[echo]

I *think* it may be possible to do this, although I haven't tried it. There's a whole forum devoted to this product, along with a lot of very smart peopleand engineers; you might inquire there:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/

This thread in particular addresses such issues:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...hlight=icecast

Looks like it takes a little work though.

Thanks, although I really doubt that that soultion would support surround. I'll check it out some more though.
It probably also introduces some lagg to the audio, doesn't matter in most cases perhaps but in movies it really is noticable

But I haven't looked into it deeply yet so I'll do that just in case.

echo-

It sound's like you're looking for a soundcard that would basically do all the things your Yamaha already does. If you output digitally to the receiver then you don't need to spend a fortune on a soundcard. In the price range your suggesting, I don't think you'll be able to beat the processing in the Yamaha. Plus Yamaha has some of the better DSP modes for home theater.

I'm not sure if you are looking for 5.1 audio from a WMA output. You said the incompatability with the receiver was with WMA. Something doesn't make sense to me here. In my mind, for 2 channel audio, the software on your computer should be converting the WMA file to PCM and the PCM stream is what is digitally sent to the Yamaha (which handles PCM just fine). There should be no incompatability.

For movies, if you're playing DVD's on the laptop, your sound card will need to support and output digitally the appropriate format DD, DTS (SACD can not be digitally transmitted between components, copy protection). But that should not be hard to find. The receiver can handle those as well. The expense in a card is the D/A conversion, go digital out and you won't have to worry about it. I don't think you can do much more in the price you suggest, and I don't think you need to either.

The Yamaha is good. I really doubt you'd be dissapointed for movies or 2 channel. If you find your music listening is really critical then think about an external DAC. But get it up and running and take your time to decide.

The problem isn't WMA it is in WMP (windows media player) and outputting digitally certainly serves my purposes theoretically (and cheap too, you can get an external digital card for less than $50).

For music I only need stereo, especially since the rear-speakers aren't that good in comparison. But for movies surround would be good.

The problem is withing Media Center which uses Windows Media Player for playback. It's really tricky to bybass the windows kmixer (which spoils the bit-perfect digital signal and resamples it which of course comes with degrading of the audio).

I'd just loooove to just connect the receiver from the internal soundcards SPDIF output and just walk away. But the quality is really poor because that card can't produce a bit-perfect digital signal but it is degraded alot in the process.

The few cards that normally can achieve this though are simple external cards (that often can't do anything but outputting SPDIF, perfect for my purposes really) that bybass the kmixer automatically. Unfortnuately those can't distinguish between stereo and surround and you would have to go in the Control Panel and change it manually (not really an option).
My solution to that problem would be to perhaps get 2 external cards. One for stereo and one for surround although I don't know if that would work the way I want it to.
Another (but quite small in comparison) problem is that TV can't be outputted digitally. But I don't think that quality is that important when it comes to TV so I could just use the internal card or some old SB Live! Value card I have around.

If that would work I would probably do that but the downside is that perhaps not everything will be able to be outputted digitally and that would mean a serious drop in quality. However if music and movies works I think I would just ignore that.
But it is a lot of work and research behind getting it to work (also those cards aren't that easily found in sweden that you find on the internet-forums) and I have been looking for a solution like that for months without getting anywhere.
So I'm getting quite tired of it and thought that if an analogue card can fix this with equal or better quality it would be worth the hassle to trying to get that working (basically the WAF has a high priority and I'm not going to be around a lot in the future so it has be completely managed by the rest of the family ),

[dwlam1]

I just came across your thread and thought I'd tell you what I just did.
I found a product called Pro Hifi Link which hooks up to your computer via USB
and sends data to the reciever via stereo input, digital 5.1, or digital optical.
I can't speak for the sound conversion software/hardware included, but
at under $100, it's worth looking into.

I've hooked it up via stereo inputs and sound is quite good.
Good luck.

[basite]

why do it digital?? buy some mini jack to left+right rca (white red), they're cheap and you have analog audio then, just plug them in to the 6 channel input, then press the 6 ch input button on front of your amp/receiver, than you have it in analog, i do it that way, also, you don't have to care about any of the stupid yamaha effects (which sound to metallic btw), if you want to go digital, try the creative xifi xtrememusic edition, it automatticly sets the bitrate to 24bit and 96Khz

[Mike Anderson]

why do it digital??

You get better quality by doing the D-to-A conversion offboard. The computer tends to inject noise, otherwise.

You can do even better than that by using a decent quality transport and doing everything away from the computer except for the storage and management.

[Mr_Speedy]

I just bought an Audigy 4 (non pro) sound card, and I'm quite happy with the sound quality. It has a S/N ratio of 106dB, and in stereo mode it uses a 24bit/192kHz DAC. I'm not sure how it compares to the Yamaha receiver in sound quality.
Another thing to consider... If you use the DAC on the Yamaha, you have already made your choice of which amplifier you intend to use - the Yamaha. If you get a quality sound card, you can get another higher quality amp, and therefore higher quality sound, which is I assume your ultimate goal....