Please Judge My A/B Methodology, Mtry Others

[996turbo]

I know I said I would not reply to openly antagonistic post but this one was done while I was writing mine.

LOL that is pretty good. I especially like the piece of meat.

Once again very funny stuff.

[WmAx]

What did I do to you personally for you to be such an ass. It is it in your nature? If so I will understand. I do agree that this thread and others has gotten out of control. I think if you look at all the post yours are just as vitriolic as others.When you say that my demeanor is sophmoric I suggest you look at yourself and judge others only after you have looked inward.

This is called "Feeding you your own medicine.". Sure, it's an exaggeration, but it's exactly what you did. Don't like it, it seems......

Lesson learned?

-Chris

[996turbo]

Calm down Chris,


I really did think the meat thing was funny though.

[996turbo]

I see you Live in Virginia perhaps Mtry and the others would trust you to do the test with different equipment. I think it would be a very interesting experience for all involved. I live in NC which may be as little as an hour or two away from you.

[Resident Loser]

...like calling me an @$$ho!e in a previous post or...

"...What did I do to you personally for you to be such an ass..."

Clever question...it contains it's own answer...

"...I think if you look at all the post yours are just as vitriolic as others..."

"... When you say that my demeanor is sophmoric I suggest you look at yourself and judge others only after you have looked inward..."

As I recall, you have voiced your opinions as though they were facts...each one has been met with reasonable and factual responses in a civilized manner...instead of countering with logical, legitimate responses, you simply took the low road, I know you did, you know you did, as do all the witnesses to your posts.

"...I just completely disagree with Mtry and some of the others..."

As is your right, so far, so good...

"...He has opened himself to criticism as have others here (including myself) by openly displaying our opinions...."

When did that(displaying his opinion) occur? Again, you posted opinions as facts and it was pointed out that certain biases can skew subjective listening "tests", certain protocols MUST be followed for any results to be viable, that sort of thing. In fairly typical manner you responded, not with any sort of logical debate but rather with the "Sez you" attitude...trust me, we have seen this all before and know how the script reads...THAT'S experience.

"...I would think that if you are the adult that you portend to be that you can do the same..."

Sorry, can't resist, did you mean "pretend to be"? Portend is a whole 'nother animal...

jimHJJ(...have fun and enjoy the music...)

[Pat D]

I did an A/B where the difference between units was about 2dB. The louder unit being the the above mentioned Toshiba SD 1600. I scored 15/15 in telling which one I like better even though the cheapo one was louder. IMO, that debunks all the sayings that louder=better.

With regards to the sync issue, I can press the pause button at exactly the same time, and play once again at the same time, but there may be internal player issues such as how long the delay is for the commands to be executed, etc. That's why the delay in between.

Basically what I'm trying to do is to make it MORE DIFFICULT to tell the differences between players. If I'm reading you correctly, you are also saying that it will become more difficult to tell between players given my above listed protocols. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also let me clarify the hypothesis: Many people on this board believe that there are NO sonic differences AT ALL between any DVD player. I want to prove or disprove this idea with an A/B comparison with the equipment and manpower that I have available. I know that I can't accurately level match the 2 units, hence the possible variation of master volume. I realize that I may not be able to sync the units to a couple milliseconds (although I should get very close certainly less than .0.25 sec), hence the longer delay.

The music on both discs comes from a variety of sources. Thank goodness for CDRs. There are selections from 6 different discs, and the music from each disc plays at different volume levels so that even if I had a voltage attenuator, I wouldn't be able to match the output voltage in both machines so that the volume in dBs is exactly equal.

Well, I have to agree that sometimes a little softer sounds better, but it's a very minor point and does nothing to validate your test procedures.

The fact that proving that players sound different by using a listening test can be difficult and cumbersome, although those who have an ABX machine available can do so without assistance. The can level match the two inputs (preferably with a voltmeter), it switches quickly and silently, and it will randomly pick what "X" is and keep a record of it for you (if I understand it all correctly).

Anyway, with your method, the presumption would be that the differences heard are overwhelmingly likely to be due to level differences. Even if you did an enormous number of comparisons and came up with a statistically significant result, it is quite likely that there was some bias in setting the levels. So, sorry, level matching is the only way to go for such auditions. If you use two preamps, feeding one into the other, it is relatively easy to match the levels, but this may introduce other sources of error, such as perhaps a ground loop, which could affect the outcome.

Of course, you could simply measure the FR and see if both players are flat enough to be within the JNDs. If not, one could assume there is likely an audible difference, at least under some conditions (and listening to music might not be one of them!). Not every CDP has a flat FR (for example, some Walkman type players meant for use with small headphones have a significant bass boost! But then, that's designed not to sound the same). There are a number of other possibilities, but there is no reason to expect them to apply with decent equipment. No one holds any variety of "everything sounds the same," certainly no one around here.

[996turbo]

Enough is enough.

A liberal and a conservative could go on forever arguing their beliefs.

I know I have heard differences just as you know there is none to be heard.

I will leave this topic (not the site) as it well never be resolved in this forum.

I guess it is the old disagree to disagree.

Jason
Enjoy the music!

[mtrycraft]

Miliseconds?

.1 dB

What the hell

I told you need to do some outside research, didn't I? That is where you should spend your spare time on, real audio data that is out there, and human psychology.

[mtrycraft]

The problem magictooth is that any test you devise if it comes out contrary to Mytrs beliefs will be criticized. The whole millisecond thing is proof. I have repetedly asked these people to participate in a test. They refuse because they have no experience with the gear I will be testing and do not know if their beliefs will stand up against a test. The only thing they can do is sit in their blind and shoot down things they are not willing to step up to the plate and participate in. They have proven that the only thing they can do is spit out things they have read. You are wasting your time asking him how to do the test. You could do it exactly as he states and he will find some unarguable bull to discredit your work.

My beliefs? Hardly. It is what the audio research dictates.

[mtrycraft]

I did an A/B where the difference between units was about 2dB. The louder unit being the the above mentioned Toshiba SD 1600. I scored 15/15 in telling which one I like better even though the cheapo one was louder. IMO, that debunks all the sayings that louder=better.

Of coursze you preferred one better. There was a 2dB level difference and were able to isolate it and know in fact which unit was louder. You think your bias is not at work? Oh, your bias is hidden from your consciousness so you have no control of it. Like gravity. It is.
Unfortunately in a proper protocol, it has to be level matched, 0period, end of story.

With regards to the sync issue, I can press the pause button at exactly the same time, and play once again at the same time, but there may be internal player issues such as how long the delay is for the commands to be executed, etc. That's why the delay in between.

Yep, all these giove clues which component is in play and easy to guess and make selections.

Basically what I'm trying to do is to make it MORE DIFFICULT to tell the differences between players. If I'm reading you correctly, you are also saying that it will become more difficult to tell between players given my above listed protocols. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, the idea is to be fair, eliminate clues to identify differences for known reasons, and do it without your knowledge of which player is playing and differentiate by sound alone.


Also let me clarify the hypothesis: Many people on this board believe that there are NO sonic differences AT ALL between any DVD player.


Any player? Where do you get that idea from? Please don't make things up. Bad enough when people imagine things.

I want to prove or disprove this idea with an A/B comparison with the equipment and manpower that I have available. I know that I can't accurately level match the 2 units, hence the possible variation of master volume. I realize that I may not be able to sync the units to a couple milliseconds (although I should get very close certainly less than .0.25 sec), hence the longer delay.

If you cannot level match, you cannot compare. Sync issue can be overcome. Just play a short segment on one player, then the same segement on another player but your memory will suffer.

so that even if I had a voltage attenuator, I wouldn't be able to match the output voltage in both machines so that the volume in dBs is exactly equal.

I think you are confused by now on this issue.
The two CD players have to play a test CD at the same level, to .1dB. The music on the two Cd must be identical in level, not that one track is louder but that both CD play each song equally loud.

[magictooth]

LOL - the inconsistencies that you get if you don't check the site for 5 days...

From Resident Loser:
With re: to volume, the louder unit will always seem to sound better.

PatD:
Well, I have to agree that sometimes a little softer sounds better

Who to believe?

[magictooth]

I did an A/B where the difference between units was about 2dB. The louder unit being the the above mentioned Toshiba SD 1600. I scored 15/15 in telling which one I like better even though the cheapo one was louder. IMO, that debunks all the sayings that louder=better.

Of coursze you preferred one better. There was a 2dB level difference and were able to isolate it and know in fact which unit was louder. You think your bias is not at work? Oh, your bias is hidden from your consciousness so you have no control of it. Like gravity. It is.
Unfortunately in a proper protocol, it has to be level matched, 0period, end of story.

With regards to the sync issue, I can press the pause button at exactly the same time, and play once again at the same time, but there may be internal player issues such as how long the delay is for the commands to be executed, etc. That's why the delay in between.

Yep, all these giove clues which component is in play and easy to guess and make selections.

Basically what I'm trying to do is to make it MORE DIFFICULT to tell the differences between players. If I'm reading you correctly, you are also saying that it will become more difficult to tell between players given my above listed protocols. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, the idea is to be fair, eliminate clues to identify differences for known reasons, and do it without your knowledge of which player is playing and differentiate by sound alone.


Also let me clarify the hypothesis: Many people on this board believe that there are NO sonic differences AT ALL between any DVD player.


Any player? Where do you get that idea from? Please don't make things up. Bad enough when people imagine things.

I want to prove or disprove this idea with an A/B comparison with the equipment and manpower that I have available. I know that I can't accurately level match the 2 units, hence the possible variation of master volume. I realize that I may not be able to sync the units to a couple milliseconds (although I should get very close certainly less than .0.25 sec), hence the longer delay.

If you cannot level match, you cannot compare. Sync issue can be overcome. Just play a short segment on one player, then the same segement on another player but your memory will suffer.

so that even if I had a voltage attenuator, I wouldn't be able to match the output voltage in both machines so that the volume in dBs is exactly equal.

I think you are confused by now on this issue.
The two CD players have to play a test CD at the same level, to .1dB. The music on the two Cd must be identical in level, not that one track is louder but that both CD play each song equally loud.

Wow, an in depth and interesting answer.

You say that the level differences are what I'm keying off of. I am trying to eliminate that bias with the equipment that I have available to me. I don't see how there could be any bias at all if the volume control gets changed unsighted (by my wife) and at random between tests.

As for the sync issue, you are most likely not a musician. I am proposing a 10-15 second delay between playing each segment. With no audible cues, how can a less than 0.25 difference in synchronization play any role identifying which one is playing first. To be able to count rests for a random interval of 10-15 seconds without any audible or visual cue is impossible. Not even improbable - impossible. Consider this: if you told the symphony to start the second movement 3 full bars of silence after the end of the first movement, but that nobody could direct and nobody could do any kind of head movement, etc., you'd have 100 musicians playing at slightly different times. I seriously don't believe that my method will lend any bias.

So Mtry, are you trying to say that you DON'T believe that all players sound the same? I realize that you have often said that all well designed players sound the same, but the difference between saying "well designed" and all players is a very obscure bit of minutiae. Please for the record state what you believe about DVD players playing RBCD. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that you constantly denigrate spending over a very modest amount of money on a DVD player (or CDP). Please specify how much money is too much money for a well designed player.

With regards to the voltage attenuation, I was thinking of something else, namely the analog knob that I have which would increase the volume by differing amounts based ont he material you play. You are correct that I was making an incorrect statment.

[magictooth]

-Chris

ROFLMAO - I love it!!

[Resident Loser]

and circumstance...when comparing two units, and as a disinterested third party, I believe most people will gravitate towards a slightly louder signal as their preference...generally speaking...and you'll have to take distortion levels into account(even at lower levels some folks are quite sensitive to that), I'm not referring to a tremendous difference here, only a slight one...after all there are the old Fletcher-Munson curves and loudness compensation in general. Even tho' that is band-specific, I believe it tends to support my contention to some degree...Personal preference aside(and I do agree with Pat in my own listening habits)...but, if volume don't count to a part the general population, why the he!! am I constantly annoyed by them d@mned rolling boom-boxes?

jimHJJ(...and BTW "inconsistencies" would only apply if one of us had said both things...)

[magictooth]

and circumstance...when comparing two units, and as a disinterested third party, I believe most people will gravitate towards a slightly louder signal as their preference...generally speaking...and you'll have to take distortion levels into account(even at lower levels some folks are quite sensitive to that), I'm not referring to a tremendous difference here, only a slight one...after all there are the old Fletcher-Munson curves and loudness compensation in general. Even tho' that is band-specific, I believe it tends to support my contention to some degree...Personal preference aside(and I do agree with Pat in my own listening habits)...but, if volume don't count to a part the general population, why the he!! am I constantly annoyed by them d@mned rolling boom-boxes?

jimHJJ(...and BTW "inconsistencies" would only apply if one of us had said both things...)

No, the implication was inconsistencies between responses of various posters. It's funny like how some axioms are antithetical: "look before you leap" and "he who hesistates is lost" Same here for audio. I thought it was funny about inconsistent advice from the general AR populace regarding volume levels and liking unit.

[996turbo]

The inconsistencies he is refering to is two different opinions. Thatis the problem here.

[Resident Loser]

...Do we speak in one unified voice?

No. But, your use of the word without further qualification indicates that you think we are or should be..or at least THAT is what you infer...

The GCD(Great Cable Debate) is not a product of "inconsistency"(although some posters do, at times, seem to be talking out of both sides of their faces - in that case it would apply)...two different camps(as it were) with two very specific philosophies. Who to believe?

Would you use the word "inconsistency" with regard to public opinion re: Iraq? or the President? or Palestine? or any other issue that confronts us? I think not! Well perhaps some would, but they would be wrong to do so.

The public holds opinions that are diverse, differing, multifarious and manifold(to name a few)...

Same at this site, after all, it is somewhat of a microcosm...one might use the phrase "difference of" or "multitude of" or even "panoply of" opinions, as there are certainly any number of them...but they are not "inconsistent" with any one thing, by any measure; that is the key...it's one he!! of an indictment of this country's educational system if you can't see that not-so-subtle distinction...

jimHJJ(...now if the Dems nominated George Bush as THEIR candidate, THAT would be "inconsistent"...)

[Resident Loser]

...with anything...it is TWO DIFFERENT OPINIONS from TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE...

jimHJJ(...Gott in Himmel...)

[996turbo]

You like to argue about everything.

How about this statement.

The opinions on this website are inconsistent.
The fact that we are talking about something outside of philosophy and within the realms of electronics makes it even more interesting.

Displaying or marked by a lack of consistency, especially:
Not regular or predictable; erratic: inconsistent behavior.
Lacking in correct logical relation; contradictory: inconsistent statements.
Not in agreement or harmony; incompatible: an intersection inconsistent with the road map.

I think the word perfectly describes this site.

[magictooth]

...with anything...it is TWO DIFFERENT OPINIONS from TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE...

jimHJJ(...Gott in Himmel...)

C'mon, this is like making a mountain out of a molehill, but www.dictionary.com has inconsistency as
Displaying or marked by a lack of consistency, especially:
1.Not regular or predictable; erratic: inconsistent behavior.
2.Lacking in correct logical relation; contradictory: inconsistent statements.
3.Not in agreement or harmony; incompatible: an intersection inconsistent with the road map.

I wasn't saying that you were inconsistent, but rather that some of the information and statements made on this board by various members are inconsistent with each other. You would think that an axiomatic statement such as "louder always sounds better" would not have its corollary in "sometimes I find softer to sound better." I just thought that the differences were funny enough to make note of them.

[996turbo]

Little slow on your internet work there Magictooth.

I hope I do not fail the school system in this country when I say I knew what you meant immedietly.

[Resident Loser]

"...You like to argue about everything..."

Only when I'm right...

"...The opinions on this website are inconsistent..."

Inconsistent with what? Ethics? Religious dogma? The teachings of Chairman Mao? The Joy Of Cooking? There is no goal, no uniformity, no direction, no specific philosophy to kowtow to...no party line...

"...The fact that we are talking about something outside of philosophy and within the realms of electronics makes it even more interesting..."

Electronics!!! It's friggin' vocabulary and usage...LOOK, quick...over by the trees...It's a forest!!!

"...Displaying or marked by a lack of consistency, especially:
Not regular or predictable; erratic: inconsistent behavior.
Lacking in correct logical relation; contradictory: inconsistent statements.
Not in agreement or harmony; incompatible: an intersection inconsistent with the road map...I think the word perfectly describes this site..."

My choice would be: democratic with a soupcon of anarchy....did you read my reply to the toothsome one?

If "consistency"(or at least YOUR definition of it) is what you want, why not head on over to AA they'll tell ya' just what you want to hear...

jimHJJ(...anybody seen that big, brown bag of "IT"...)

[Resident Loser]

...you opted to conveniently ignore the body of my post and take issue with my comments on your word usage...

"...C'mon, this is like making a mountain out of a molehill, but www.dictionary.com has inconsistency as
Displaying or marked by a lack of consistency, especially:
1.Not regular or predictable; erratic: inconsistent behavior.
2.Lacking in correct logical relation; contradictory: inconsistent statements.
3.Not in agreement or harmony; incompatible: an intersection inconsistent with the road map..."

Foist, the above definition is for "inconsistent"...the word you incorrectly used was "inconsistencies"...the former an adjective, the latter a noun. At that very same site:

in-con-sis-ten-cy

American Heritage

1. The state or quality of being inconsistent.
2. Something inconsistent: many inconsistencies in your proposal.

...note the singularity of the word "your"...further,

Webster

1. The quality or state of being inconsistent; discordance in respect to sentiment or action; such contrariety between two things that can not exist or be true together; disagreement; incompatibility.

There is perfect inconsistency between that which is of debt and that which is of free gift.--South

2. Absurdity in argument or narration; incoherence or irreconcilability in the parts of a statement, argument, or narration; that which is inconsistent.

If a man would register all his opinions upon love, politics, religion and learning, what a bundle of inconsistencies and contrdictions would appear at last!--Swift

3. want of stbility or uniformity; unsteadiness; changeableness; variableness.

Mutability of temper, inconsistency with ourselves, is the greatest weakness of human nature--Addison

Again, make note of the definite singularity of the quotes. One person can have inconsistencies, two only if speaking as an entity...

WordNet, Princeton U.

1. The relation between propositions that cannot be true at the same time[syn: incompatability, mutual exclusiveness]
2.The quality of being inconsistent and lacking a harmonious uniformity among things or parts[ant: consistency]

Again, this applies to an individual or group of individuals speaking as a single entity...not what AR is, it is a diverse community...

"...I wasn't saying that you were inconsistent, but rather that some of the information and statements made on this board by various members are inconsistent with each other..."

And why wouldn't they be, it is a microcosm...BTW now you have qualified it by adding "with each other"...

jimHJJ(...which is what I said in the first place...)

[996turbo]

I genuinly feel sorrow for you Mr. Loser.

Anybody with the pent anger that you have shown must be in agony.
I am sincere when I say this I do not understand why you must put so much anger in to your post. Life is realy too short to go around with this anger.

Magictooth made a simple comment and you proceded to bash him for it as you do with a propensity of your post. Is it too hard for you to give a positive post. You seem to always look at the negatives in a post.

Life goes on much better when the negatives are realized but the positives are acted upon.

One should not have to worry about the proper usage or speling of a word in a silly post on a meaningless site. You however hone in on those negatives in search of something to be right on.

[Resident Loser]

"...I genuinly feel sorrow for you Mr. Loser....
Anybody with the pent anger that you have shown must be in agony.
I am sincere when I say this I do not understand why you must put so much anger in to your post. Life is realy too short to go around with this anger..."

You actually think I give a rat's rump about this $h!t...if so I feel sorry for you...it's a diversion...a pleasntry...

"...Magictooth made a simple comment and you proceded to bash him for it as you do with a propensity of your post..."

No, toothy ignored the body of my post and decided to carry on in error re: his misuse of a word...

"...Is it too hard for you to give a positive post. You seem to always look at the negatives in a post..."

Not looked much further than your nose have you? I answer a plethora of questions and direct folks to reliable sources of information on a regular basis. I also provide my opinion based on experience in sound production, sound reproduction and related fields...I always look for blatant stupidity in posts and address issues as I see fit.

"...Life goes on much better when the negatives are realized but the positives are acted upon..."

Teach me more Mahatma!

"...One should not have to worry about the proper usage or speling of a word in a silly post on a meaningless site..."

I usually take issue on said items with those who brag about their strict attention to details...oxymoronic? is that a word?

"...You however hone in on those negatives in search of something to be right on..."

I might hone a knife or chisel, but I home-in on things set before me on a silver platter...and only from the chosen ones...

jimHJJ(...good night now...)