Cheap DAC working well

Just for fun I decide to spring for an eBay DAC, priced low with shipping included, from seller 'good.feedback' ... see here. I was particularly interested in getting 24/96 or better hi-rez capability.It's amazing what you can get for cheap this days in the case of DACs. :3: Diminishing returns kicks in early in case of these devices.

My old Assemblage 1.5 DAC is pretty decent, though strictly a 16/44.1 device. It features the the Burr-Brown PCM1702 20-bit "ladder DAC" fed by the venerable Cirrus Logic CS8412 receiver. The output is complex, each channel having an I/V and buffer stage, and each stage utilizing a dual opamp, (total of four dual opamps). I rolled the original opamps for stacked pairs of Texas Instruments of OPA627's.

What impressed me with the eBay DAC, other than the price, is the use of the older but well-regarded Burr-Brown DIR9001 receiver, noted for its jitter tolerance, and the relatively modern (though not latest) Wolfson WM8740 DAC. The WM8740 is 'delta-sigma' device, (as opposed to the PCM1702 'ladder' typd); it has 128x oversampling, (not upsampling), and can handle 24bit & 192 kps. The output, analog stage utilizes a single dual opamp.

Contrary to the eBay blurb the device needs a 9 volt AC, (not DC), supply, not included. Fortuitously I had a 9 VAC, 1 amp wall-wort lyng around. The good news is that board includes all its own linear rectfiers and regulators, so finding a regulated power supply (to replace a switching or unregulated wall-wort) isn't an issue.

The board has a USB input but I won't use this, instead using S/PDIF from my M-Audio Revolution 7.1 sound card.

Overall the sound is excellent with clarity and air perhaps even better than my old Assemblage. The sound is free of blatant colorations and an grain or grunges that I can identify. The high treble might seem a tad bright to some people who prefer a chocolate-coated tube sound, but I wouldn't call it "harsh". I might try swapping the OP275G opamp for a stacked pair of OPA627's which might mellow the sound a bit, but it's not urgent.

http://www.askhowto.net/good.feedbac...I%20DAC/03.jpg

Will update after more listening. :12:

Great find and it deserves to be put it in one of your signature green cases. Gawd I love the ebay stuff from China.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

Great find and it deserves to be put it in one of your signature green cases. Gawd I love the ebay stuff from China.

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Thanks, PG.There are bargains out there but separating the wheat from the chaff is mostly good luck though. I bought another cheap DAC year or so ago that I wrote up here on AR; it wasn't awful but turned out to be less good than my old Assemblage DAC.

I've been listing to this DAC now for several days playing a variety of music but relying on my reference set to tell me what's going on. BTW, my reference set include both great an not so great recordings; the not so great category includes records with particular problems, i.e. not all-bad.

I did roll the supplied OP275G opamp for a stacked pair of OPA627's. Thus modified I have no reservations about this modest DAC it better than my old Assemblage DAC, especially in resolving power. It's tonal balance is neutral which I mean in the sense of having neither inaccurate nor pleasant colorations. Plus the new DAC will play hi-rez. I tested both 24 bit / 96 kHz and 24 / 88.2 and both sounded great.

Regarding the opamp swap, according to my impression the OPA627's yielded a subtly mellowed sound that will appeal to most people. However the OPA227 is relatively expense in opamp terms and if the goad is a really cheap (but effective) DAC, the ~$30 extra for this "pricey" opamp should considered optional. (You can buy stacked OPA627's on eBay from several sellers, e.g. Gigawork, here, who sold me mine.)

Feanor, I've been considering the WM8740 DAC along with the Muse TDA 1543 x 4 for my secondary system and for my son's system. The Muse can be had for as low as $38. I might just buy both and see which one sounds better. I will use this upgraded linear power supply for the Muse if I decide to buy it. http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-PS3KX-.../dp/B0002JTD2K

Muse DAC-

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au...-x-tda1543-dac

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Feanor, I've been considering the WM8740 DAC along with the Muse TDA 1543 x 4 for my secondary system and for my son's system. The Muse can be had for as low as $38. I might just buy both and see which one sounds better. I will use this upgraded linear power supply for the Muse if I decide to buy it. http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-PS3KX-.../dp/B0002JTD2K

Muse DAC-

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au...-x-tda1543-dac

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BR, the Muse should be terrifically god for the money -- and in it comes in a case. A linear, regulated power supply ought to be an improvement over a SMPS.

Many people claim to prefer the older, "ladder" DACs such as the the TDA1541 or 1543 over the delta-signa DACs that are more prevalent today. Then again some don't, claiming the 1541/1543 don't have quite as good resolution.

My old Assemblage DAC uses the Burr-Brown PCM1702, a 20-bit ladder DAC, and is a very decent sounding DAC though it won't handle 24 bit source and is, to my ear, not quite as resolved as my cheapo DAC with the Wolfson WM8740.

I see a day when expensive dacs are a thing of the past. With digital music becoming more popular and the designs of dacs becoming more common among most peoples systems in order for music for digital players like portable players, or computers I will think that dacs will come down in price to a point where almost anyone could afford one if one wants. If you look inside a Dac the circuit designs are rather simple mostly consisting of chip sets made by Ti, or Burr Brown or Cirrus and put together with good quality op amps and power supplies that don't have to be huge to power these circuits even though some brands insist on big power supplies for quality and balanced power. I think we will see a day when dacs as good as separate ones are common to be incorporated in preamps and receivers or prepro's as a common feature because digital music is not going anywhere and the quality of digital music is just getting better and more defined as the bit rates get higher and sampling rates get higher we will see some awesome quality come out of digital in the future and I think dacs will be more commonplace and the price per quality will only get lower.

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Originally Posted by harley .guy07

I see a day when expensive dacs are a thing of the past. With digital music becoming more popular and the designs of dacs becoming more common among most peoples systems in order for music for digital players like portable players, or computers I will think that dacs will come down in price to a point where almost anyone could afford one if one wants. If you look inside a Dac the circuit designs are rather simple mostly consisting of chip sets made by Ti, or Burr Brown or Cirrus and put together with good quality op amps and power supplies that don't have to be huge to power these circuits even though some brands insist on big power supplies for quality and balanced power. I think we will see a day when dacs as good as separate ones are common to be incorporated in preamps and receivers or prepro's as a common feature because digital music is not going anywhere and the quality of digital music is just getting better and more defined as the bit rates get higher and sampling rates get higher we will see some awesome quality come out of digital in the future and I think dacs will be more commonplace and the price per quality will only get lower.

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Yeah, could be. There is not much fundamental reason why you couldn't get a near SOTA DAC for, say, $300 if it's made enmasse. For that matter there is much reason why you couldn't make near SOTA preamplifier for say, $500, or with DAC built in, $650. Such equipment could give you 99.8% of what you'd get from equipment costing 10x as much.

I think we will have to look to Asian manufacture to get this, however. The high-end North American and European brands will compete for that extra 0.2% at diminishing-return prices.

Bill, what enclosure do you use for the Wolfson based DAC?. I would like to buy it along with the Muse. I have 3 other systems that could use a cheap DAC, so I will give both a shot and see which one sounds better. Thanks!

Larry

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Bill, what enclosure do you use for the Wolfson based DAC?. I would like to buy it along with the Muse. I have 3 other systems that could use a cheap DAC, so I will give both a shot and see which one sounds better. Thanks!

Larry

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Larry, there is actually no enclosure. Unfortunately the thing doesn't lend itself well to enclusures: (a) it doesn't have holes in the PCB to accept standard stand-offs, and (b) inputs and switches are fixed on opposite ends of the board so you would need a very precise size of case size to fit it.

What I did is cut and glued thin wood shims to each side of the PCB with 'Goop', then glued those to a 1 x 4 piece of pine for the base. I added three small silicon rubber 'feet' to the pine base.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...WolfsonDAC.jpg

Thanks, it looks like you did a good job there with the stand.. If i buy the DAC, I just might see how creative I can get with some plexiglass to make a cover for the unit in addition to a wood stand.

Beautiful, good job "Feanor" hey if looks could kill;)

man that project looks like something from (Maple shades stores) instead of a DIY effort. no kidding

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Fini...epartments/47/

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Originally Posted by winston

Beautiful, good job "Feanor" hey if looks could kill;)

man that project looks like something from (Maple shades stores) instead of a DIY effort. no kidding

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Fini...epartments/47/

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Ha! Thanks, Winston. Those Mapleshades are pretty nice and the prices are too crazy. On the other hand my DAC's mount was free from scrap material.

how does this compare with vdac or dacmagic?

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Originally Posted by lreinstein

how does this compare with vdac or dacmagic?

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Unfortunately I haven't heard either of these DACs so I can't comment on the sound, but I'll a couple of brief comments on other aspects.

The V-DAC II, the Dacmagic, and the "cheap", eBay DAC all offer USB as well as S/PDIF input. The V-DAC II has as asynchronous USB interface that ought to reduce incoming jitter. (Personally I use only the S/PDIF.)

Both the V-DAC II and the Dacmagic employ use asynchronous upsampling while Cheap DAC does not. Argueably asynchronous upsampling's principal benefit is jitter reduction. Further in case of the Dacmagic, it has a Texas Instuments DSP device that is supposed to "eradicate" jitter.

Both the Dacmagic and the Cheap DAC employ the Wolfson WM8740 DAC, however the Dacmagic uses two of them in a dual differenential, (i.e. balanced) configuration. Without being an expert, I say this might improve noise and some other specifications. It also facilitates balanced, (XLR), outputs which is nice if your amp as balanced inputs.

The V-DAC II uses the Burr-Brown DSD1796 DAC. This model doesn't have a balanced internal configuration nor balanced outputs.

The Dacmagic and V-DAC II are more sophfisticated DACs overall than the Cheap DAC hence their higher prices are easily justified. Whether the ultimate sound quality of either is better in a given situation than the Cheap DAC isn't clear. Nevertheless I'd say that both the Dacmagic and V-DAC II are excellent values and I would have choose one or the other if I'd had a little more cash at the time I bought the Cheap DAC.

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You are a bargain hunter extraordinaire.

Thanks for opening these trails for us. :)

BTW: I tried to get posts 16 and 17 removed as WTF is that? No luck so far. :mad5:

I'm afraid this bargain DAC might be loosing its legs. I'm starting to hear slight 60 Hz hum and buzzy overtones come in from the device. I'm pretty sure such behaviour portents a power supply failure. The board has its own PSU, (apart from a 9 VAC transformer), so the only option is to replace the whole thing.

Well perhaps I got what I pay for or just as likely, it's just a fluke, but either way I'll be looking for a new DAC. Right now I've reverted to my old Assemblage 1.5 but only handles 16/44.1 and I want to be able to handle up to 24/192.

Right now I'm considering a couple of options:

1. Musical Fidelity V-DAC MkII with asynchronous USB and (undefeatable) upsampling to 24/192
2. Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11, non-oversampling and defeatable tube output buffer.

hello Feanor, sorry about your project loosing its legs man

last year I was in 'Toronto' for a few weeks, during that time I visited all my (old posse) they're all (audio fanatic's)

"and I have to say that apart from them hauling me all over the 401 every day" they all seems to be on the same page dac-wise with (Grant Fidelity DAC-11) and also the Beresford TC-7520 DAC - Headphone Amplifier - Preamp in their systems,

from an Objective point a view, they're two nice sounding dac's and I was very impress with what I hear... (just some more options, and good luck with the new project)

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Originally Posted by winston

hello Feanor, sorry about your project loosing its legs man

last year I was in 'Toronto' for a few weeks, during that time I visited all my (old posse) they're all (audio fanatic's)

"and I have to say that apart from them hauling me all over the 401 every day" they all seems to be on the same page dac-wise with (Grant Fidelity DAC-11) and also the Beresford TC-7520 DAC - Headphone Amplifier - Preamp in their systems, from an Objective point a view, they're two nice sounding dac's and I was very impress with what I hear... (just some more options, and good luck with the new project)

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Thanks, Winston. I haven't made up my mind at all, but right now I'm leaning towards the MF V-DAC. I'm not as inclined to the smoothing effect of tubes as a lot of people are.

Sorry about the DAC issue.

What DAC chip does the V-DAC have? I heard the V-DAC is great in the midrange department.

In the GF-DAC-11 non-oversampling feature does that mean that it does not upsample? Are you disregarding the GF's ability to bypass the tube out for a straight DAC out because the V-DAC seems better or you just don't like the bypass feature?

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Thanks, Winston. I haven't made up my mind at all, but right now I'm leaning towards the MF V-DAC. I'm not as inclined to the smoothing effect of tubes as a lot of people are.

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You would be hard pressed to tell that the DAC-11 had a tube buffer. The tube out is neutral and detailed. The SS out has a brighter sound and slightly more forward.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

You would be hard pressed to tell that the DAC-11 had a tube buffer. The tube out is neutral and detailed. The SS out has a brighter sound and slightly more forward.

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Well your observation is consistent with the general vib. The DAC-11 is cheaper, i.e. not so much the price but the fact that it's shipped in Canada which avoids brokerage, etc. I can't find any local or Canadian online seller for the V-DAC.

On the other hand Emotiva is clearing their XDA-1 on clearance for $250.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Well your observation is consistent with the general vib. The DAC-11 is cheaper, i.e. not so much the price but the fact that it's shipped in Canada which avoids brokerage, etc. I can't find any local or Canadian online seller for the V-DAC.

On the other hand Emotiva is clearing their XDA-1 on clearance for $250.

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From what I have noticed online, the Emotiva has not received great reviews. Also, it only does 16/44 via USB. Just a FYI.

It seems that this forum is not Cambridge Audio fans, but the DacMagic has received good reviews, although said that the USB had some jitter issues.

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Originally Posted by Enochrome

From what I have noticed online, the Emotiva has not received great reviews. Also, it only does 16/44 via USB. Just a FYI.

It seems that this forum is not Cambridge Audio fans, but the DacMagic has received good reviews, although said that the USB had some jitter issues.

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Yes, the Emotiva has had mixed reviews; anyway, I've decided against it. I might have considered the Cambridge but it's just a little too pricey. The DacMagic also uses a DSP chip in addition to the DAC, etc., which is a bit unusual.

a little off the above subject but I am not allowed to post yet untill I got more posts??? Anyway I run a laptop and as with most the speakers are practically silent, does anybody know of any bluetooth/wireless speakers I can use with it?

I really wouldn't recommend the emotiva. I still have mine, but other than a decent feature set (especially the remote) I don't think it's anything special for the price.

Well, well, what diya know: the hum problem I mentioned wasn't caused by my cheap DAC. The problem is rare & intermittent, caused by some other, undetermined factor.

However before figuring this out I went to good ol' eBay and ordered another cheap DAC, namely this one, also sold by a couple of other eBay vendors ... New design S.M.S.L SD-1955 DIR9001 AD1955 mini DAC Optical coaxial | eBay

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/bluericewin/x195.JPG
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/bluericewin/x19GB2.JPG

It uses:

• Analog Devices AD1955 chip for a DAC; this current chip is capable of 24/192.
• DIR9001 S/PDIF receiver, capable of 24/96; an older chip but well regarded for jitter reduction
• Tenor TE7022L USB interface, capable of 24/96 -- however I only use the S/PDIF coax input
• Two dual OP275 opamps for I/V and one dual 5532 for an output buffer.
• 9 VDC wallwort power supply

The DAC doesn't do asynchronous upsampling but the AD1955 has internal oversampling which feature I presume is used.

Because I had them around I used OPA2134 opamps to replace the OP275's, and an OPA2604 to replace the 5532. I'm considering replacing the cheap wallwort with a regulated PS.

The unit sounds at least as good, probably better, than my previous cheap DAC. BTW, I started to use this DAC the same day as I started with the Magneplanar RFI/EMI choke mentioned elsewhere -- which means unfortunately that I'm not really sure which change is causing such improvement as there might be! :aureola:

Looks nice, how would you describe the sound? It looks like a good buy at $99. It looks ripe for modding with some higher end caps. I still really like my son's Maverick Tube Magic DAC-1. We did the diy op amp up grade and tube upgrade and it sounds great. My GF DAC-11 has broken in and has really smoothed out and warmed up and sounds great.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Looks nice, how would you describe the sound? It looks like a good buy at $99. It looks ripe for modding with some higher end caps. I still really like my son's Maverick Tube Magic DAC-1. We did the diy op amp up grade and tube upgrade and it sounds great. My GF DAC-11 has broken in and has really smoothed out and warmed up and sounds great.

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I'd say that it sounds smooth, grain-free, highly-resolved, and airy.

I am wanting to buy another budget DAC and I will have to consider this one.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

I am wanting to buy another budget DAC and I will have to consider this one.

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Based on my own experience you won`t go far wrong with this one for 100 bucks including shipping.

There are a lot of cheap DACs out there. I was looking for a few things to distinguish one from the other ...

• S/PDIF receiver with a reputation for low jitter, e.g. DIR9001 or Wolfson WM8805; I meant to avoid the CS8412,4,6 series
• No, or defeatable, asynchoronous upsampling
• Late model DAC chip; nice would be Wolfson WM8740,1,2 but others are acceptable, e.g. Analog Devices AD1955. The ESS Sabre32 DACs would be sweet but so far are found only in more expensive equipment. (Note that most modern chips provide built-in oversampling)
• Output stages with socketed opamps

I didn`t require USB because my computer has SPDIF output.

Personally I wasn`t really interested in upgrading capacitors, though there would be potential for improvement. Opamps in sockets are easy to change on the other hand, and there are subtle differences between their sounds.

I'm very pleased with this latest cheap DAC -- my third eBay special and they just keep getting better & better.

I believe this is the best sounding DAC yet -- not necessarily by a huge margin but by some margin. The instrument timbres seem clearer, (notably strings and brass), imaging more precise, the soundstage deeper, and the mid-range somewhat fuller-bodied.

I attribute these improvements to a greater freedom from grain and sonic crud. Get rid of the hash and the music is liberated. Where does the hash come from? Possibly ...

• Jitter (if a digital source)
• Digital filtering, e.g. "pre-echo"
• Opamp noise and/or negative feedback
• RFI/EMI

But the result, IMO, is much of the "harshness" attributed to digital. Minimize the harsh and you'll find your CDs sound a lot better than you ever thought they could. This isn't the first case in my experience that improving my reproduction chain, (not just the DAC), as made CDs relatively listenable that I'd previously figured were a sonic write-off.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

I attribute these improvements to a greater freedom from grain and sonic crud. Get rid of the hash and the music is liberated. Where does the hash come from? Possibly ...

• Jitter (if a digital source)
• Digital filtering, e.g. "pre-echo"
• Opamp noise and/or negative feedback
• RFI/EMI

But the result, IMO, is much of the "harshness" attributed to digital. Minimize the harsh and you'll find your CDs sound a lot better than you ever thought they could. This isn't the first case in my experience that improving my reproduction chain, (not just the DAC), as made CDs relatively listenable that I'd previously figured were a sonic write-off.

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I like your conclusions about what this DAC is not doing...not adding digital grit to the sound stream. I am gonna have to look into this one.

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Originally Posted by LeRoy

I like your conclusions about what this DAC is not doing...not adding digital grit to the sound stream. I am gonna have to look into this one.

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Remember, you're dealing with cheap Chinese stuff so QA might lead to variable results. But my experiences is that is a great DAC out of the box, even it it were several times the price.

I recommend the opamp upgrades. The sound improvement is small but so is the cost of the better opamps -- like under $10 for the set of three.

FEANOR, do you think this one is same as above more or less? it doesn't show any internal details as the one in your post? SMSL SD-1955 DIR9001 AD1955 DAC Optical Coaxial Decoder with Power Adapter Black | eBay I just needed your 2 sense on the matter Thanks

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Originally Posted by winston

FEANOR, do you think this one is same as above more or less? it doesn't show any internal details as the one in your post? SMSL SD-1955 DIR9001 AD1955 DAC Optical Coaxial Decoder with Power Adapter Black | eBay I just needed your 2 sense on the matter Thanks

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It appears to be identical, Winston. All lot of these devices are sold by more than one eBay merchant.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

It appears to be identical, Winston. All lot of these devices are sold by more than one eBay merchant.

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thanks Bill