Cambridge 840c Initial Impressions

[nightflier]

Just a question that I think needs to be asked: if the player sounds like a player 2-3 times as much, where did CA cut corners? I know their gear is manufactured in China, but is that the only reason it is as low as it is but compares to, oh I don't know, the Simaudio Supernova for example. Or does it?

[blackraven]

Check out the B&W floor stander 600 series speakers 683 and 684's as well as the CM series. And stick with the velodyne sub for now. If you get a good floor stander speaker, you may find that you only need the sub for HT use and not music. I've got a velodyne CHT-8 and its great for HT. The CHT velodyne subs are very musical subs and I bought mine years ago over some of their more expensive models because of this. Even the guys at velodyne liked the CHT series subs for musuc over some of their other models.

You should be able to build a HT with the B&W floor standers as fronts and the 686's for rear channels and then a B&W center for under $3500. Then you could spring for a new CDP
683-$1500pr
686-$500pr
Centers LCR60-$350, LCR600-$500, HTM62-$425

Check out www.hometheaterstore.com/tower_speaker_s/32.htm for B&W's

If you go with the Pardigms, you'll have a great system as well.

[blackraven]

I don't think CA cut corners. The unit is built like a tank weighing almost 20lb's. Other manufacturers ar scratching their heads wondering how CA can sell the 840c for that price once they have seen the inside of the unit (this was taken from an article I read). There is tremendous mark up on high end audio equipment. Look inside a 10K CDP and tell me that the components even come close to costing 2k. CA is trying to gain a market share of mid to high end audio and is doing so by producing high quality equipment at low cost. Just look at the price of compuet equipment. Computers are dirt cheap now and they are still making money although the profit margin is smaller.

[ldgibson76]

Just a question that I think needs to be asked: if the player sounds like a player 2-3 times as much, where did CA cut corners? I know their gear is manufactured in China, but is that the only reason it is as low as it is but compares to, oh I don't know, the Simaudio Supernova for example. Or does it?

Hello Nightflier!

Welcome to the Cambridge Audio Azur 840C 1st Impressions Thread.
You are such an audio snob! Only kidding.
You sound like the Mercedes-Benz and BMW engineers back in 1988. That's when Lexus introduced the LS400. They had similar concerns regarding the pricing of the LS400, being that it had a 48 valve 8 cylinder engine and was priced below the 6 cylinder models offered by those superior manufacturers. Lexus had to be cutting corners or be prepared for huge losses.
The reviewers of the CA Azur 840C have said that the Cambridge has built a high quality CDP, that can hold it's own against a lot of the higher priced offerings out there. Of course, there are better players available, but you better believe that you will have to spend 4-5K and beyond to get similar and/or better performance. Of course, any review is subjective, but hey, check out the specs on the 840 and then compare to the CD players you currently own. You paid big money for your equipment, and I'm sure you feel that you got what you paid for. But don't think for a minute that the Cambridge product is all hype, cause it isn't. In the future when you decide to purchase a new CDP, wouldn't it be nice to know that there's a player out there that cost a fraction of what you paid for your older model, but is every bit the equivalent, if not a better transport?! That CDP is here and it's only going to get better as newer models are introduced. The upsampling capability alone should have your mouth watering! No need for an external DAC. It's in there!

Regards!

[O'Shag]

Blackraven is spot on. Cambridge are employing the age old formula; high quality and performance/ at a much lower price compared to others offering comparable sound and build quality. CA are sacrificing margins to win market share. Once they've got the market share they want, they'll spin out a revised model at much higher prices to bring margins higher.

Actually Gibson makes a really important point, This unit allows external components to utilize its high grade DAC. to my mind, that makes the deal even more enticing...

[ldgibson76]

Check out the B&W floor stander 600 series speakers 683 and 684's as well as the CM series. And stick with the velodyne sub for now. If you get a good floor stander speaker, you may find that you only need the sub for HT use and not music. I've got a velodyne CHT-8 and its great for HT. The CHT velodyne subs are very musical subs and I bought mine years ago over some of their more expensive models because of this. Even the guys at velodyne liked the CHT series subs for musuc over some of their other models.

You should be able to build a HT with the B&W floor standers as fronts and the 686's for rear channels and then a B&W center for under $3500. Then you could spring for a new CDP
683-$1500pr
686-$500pr
Centers LCR60-$350, LCR600-$500, HTM62-$425

Check out www.hometheaterstore.com/tower_speaker_s/32.htm for B&W's

If you go with the Pardigms, you'll have a great system as well.

"BR",

Thanks for the heads up on the website. I will go and listen to the 6 Series models tomorrow and I'll update you on the audition. But the Paradigms really impressed me.
BTW, I do like my Velodyne CHT12, but it's a very big box. My room is only 11.6 feet wide, so floor space is valuable. With my current arrangement, I can't position it up front. It must sit on either the left or right wall. As of right now, the Klipsch RSW10, which has a much smaller footprint, sits on the left side of the room against the wall. But, I will use the CHT12 regardless of which pkg I choose. I'll just have to make it work.

[kiwi_1282001]

Blackraven is spot on. Cambridge are employing the age old formula; high quality and performance/ at a much lower price compared to others offering comparable sound and build quality. CA are sacrificing margins to win market share. Once they've got the market share they want, they'll spin out a revised model at much higher prices to bring margins higher.

Greetings to all, this is my first post here. I hail from New Zealand and note with interest the extensive carriage of AudioENZ's [New Zealand's audio forum & on-line HiFi magazine] reviews on the CA 740 & 840C products in this forum's thread.

I have read the various comments in this thread with interest and based on my ownership of CA products 640C V2 & 840C i would like to contribute the following comment.

1. Has the CA cut corners with the 840C?

I think the short answer is yes. There is so much technology crammed into the well built casing that in order to price it as they do some corners had to be cut. Beyond manufacture in China which today is common practice some corners [fortunately addressable ones] have been cut.

First up, the CA840C feet. The feet as supplied are relativey cheap plastic footers which are widely regarded as providing insufficient isolation for the player. Two options exist. First, Herbie's Audio Lab provide aftermarket footers [tenderfoot]. Direct replacement of the footers is not a quick job but users report improvements in bass response and imaging. The sound option is to leave the existing feet in place but use aftermarket isolation feet such as Golden Sands DH cones and pads or my personal favourite, Nordost Pulsar points.

Second, the power cable. If you have the means to buy an aftermarket power cable - please do so. I have tried a range of power cables from Ecosse Big Orange [which is affordable] to Nordost's Shiva and Vishnu [less affordable]. All provide sonic improvements over the supplied power cable. Most notably, the noise level drops and the dynamics improve.


2. Use the XLR!

Cambridge Audio provided balanced connectors on the 840C for a reason! Whilst antigonists would all claim that balanced is marketing BS - since my amps support both it was dead easy with level adjustment to test both myself. My findings were that sound quality via XLR was considerably better than unbalanced. The balanced connection provided a much lower noise floor and superior dynamics. For what its worth XLR connectors which have multiple signal paths and a proper solid connector with connecting clip are light years better then those dreadful - wiggle them on; wiggle them off RCA connectors!

Since the Vout from XLR is double that of unbalanced (4.4v / 2.2v) i enjoyed a secondary benefit - my hard to drive planar speakers came alive! The power amp did not have to work as hard to enjoy my usual listening levels of circa 90+ dB. This was also good for some of my low level Chesky and other audiophile RB recordings.

If you are using the RCA's today - think seriously about balanced tomorrow.


3. 640C vs. 740c vs. 840c

The sound quality move up with the range - but all are winners IMHO at their respective price points. Having heard all three i would say that the gap between the 640c & the 740c is greater than the gap between the 740c and the 840c. That said, the jump between the 740c and 840c is worth every $ in my opinion. Its not just the gain of the balanced connectors - its the further refinement in sound which the Anagram Technologies (AFT) IP provides.


4. Using an AVR for amplification - are you serious?

Matthew Bramble, the Technical Director for Cambridge Audio says it all in the introduction of the 840C's user manual

"Your CD player can only be as good as the system it is connected to. Please do not compromise on your amplifier, speakers or cabling."


5. Is CA sacrificing margins now to bring out higher priced product later?

I don't believe so. CA is making the margins it needs today on product its making today. I recently wrote to CA asking them when i could expect them to bring out a much more expensive CD player! I even had the cheek to suggest their next player be called the 940C and it should sample RB at DSD rates [like Meitner and co.] I received a very polite reply back saying that CA fully intended to remain in its current market positioning of high performance at affordable price points. Good for them - and us!

[Ajani]

Hopefully no Cambridge Audio owners will be offended by this, but my ONLY real reason for being reluctant to purchase a CA product has been consumer feedback on quality control....

I've read so many amazing critical reviews for CA products only to check out the consumer feedback and see some really dissapointing complaints about products failing... e.g. the 640C with dual DACs, I read several reviews about one channel dying etc... and I guess what sealed the fear for me was that one of the only 2 times I've auditioned CA gear, the product did something truly strange...

I was in a pretty crappy wannabe-high-end-audio store (it carried many really good lines but set them all up poorly) and I auditioned a CA 540A&C combo with a pair of Quad 21Ls... I put on some good old Billie Jean and had to kill the volume quickly... The CD player was having trouble playing the disc (no idea why, since it played on a NAD and a Marantz CD player with no trouble)... but instead of just giving an error message or taking a while to load etc.... the CD played but sounded like a scratched record, with music coming out and then some awful screaching, breaking up and lines repeating... It was the strangest experience I've ever had with a CD player....

I'm sure many proud CA owners have had trouble free years with their products, but I guess my initial fears combined with that really awful experience, have made me truly reluctant to give CA gear a try....

[Ajani]

As a matter of fact I have. The Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand's and the Focal JM Labs 826VB's

Mozarts sounded nice. They were connected to a Pioneer Elite Pioneer VSX-94TXH. That's the best the retailer could do. Good bass response and great imaging. The whole pkg not including the sub which would most likely be a REL or Velodyne....$5300.00

The Focals were nice also. They were connected to a Denon 4308. Not including the sub, $5100.00 The sub was $1000. And that was the lower model.

Here's the shame of it all. Only the Paradigm retailer gave me what I would consider "a close to my scenario" audition. Why? Well, they are an authorized Marantz dealer also and was kind enough to connected the Paradigm Studio 60 v.3's to a Marantz SR9600. And I have to say, I was really impressed, not only with the effort, but with the overall performance. In 2 channel, great imaging, and very impressive low end depth. The rep even re-routed amplification thru an external 5 channel amp (Anthem) and the system really came alive. I may go with the Paradigms just on the customer service given by the rep. Normally $4850.00, I was offered $4500.00 for the whole pkg, not including the sub. I would just use my Velodyne CHT12 until a later date.

The B&W's were definitely out of my comfort zone. If I were to choose the 804's, it would be from a previous owner. I may audition the 700 series this weekend.

Outside what I've auditioned so far, do you have another brand in mind?!

I'd add Monitor Audio, Energy, PSB and for a change of pace... probably Dynaudio and Totem.... It's best to listen to as many speakers as you can, since they best brand for you may well be one you've not heard yet...

[Ajani]

Hmmmm, despite my fear of CA products I must admit that I am very tempted by the fact that both the 740C and 840C have digital inputs and hence can be used as DACs... that would be a great way to add both a DAC for my computer audio and a dedicated CD player...

Too bad they didn't take it just one step further and add a USB input.....

[kiwi_1282001]

Hopefully no Cambridge Audio owners will be offended by this, but my ONLY real reason for being reluctant to purchase a CA product has been consumer feedback on quality control....

I've read so many amazing critical reviews for CA products only to check out the consumer feedback and see some really dissapointing complaints about products failing... e.g. the 640C with dual DACs, I read several reviews about one channel dying etc... and I guess what sealed the fear for me was that one of the only 2 times I've auditioned CA gear, the product did something truly strange...

This sadly is true. Quality problems were limited to the 640C where one channel sometimes died. It happened to me. I took the unit back and the retailer replaced it with an 840C for a nominal price difference.

[ldgibson76]

[4. Using an AVR for amplification - are you serious?

Matthew Bramble, the Technical Director for Cambridge Audio says it all in the introduction of the 840C's user manual

"Your CD player can only be as good as the system it is connected to. Please do not compromise on your amplifier, speakers or cabling."]

Hello "Kiwi". Welcome to Audio Review!

Thank you for the input regarding the Cambridge products. Receiving insight from "down under" about your experiences with the Azur CDP's was very enlightening. Understand that there are those on this forum that go to great lengths to become educated on interesting product(s) on the market. Especially products such as the 740 and 840C. In such a saturated market, it is rare that a product sets a completely new standard in the industry. Think about it.....imagine Linn, Marantz, Cary, Meridian, Music Hall, etc,....introducing a CDP with the capabilities of the 840C (for instance, upsampling), that Player would be 6-7K+ at the minimum. Cutting corners.....yeah, maybe Cambridge did. But I can assure you that there are those out there that would have still upgraded the feet and power cord on their respective CDP's, regardless of the manufacturer. It's just something audiophiles feel that they need to do....it's what they do. The unwavering need to improve their listening experience. And please understand that I am in no way trying to diminish your observations on why the 840C pricing is where it is. I just think that if compromises where made, it surely wasn't in the chassis or the internals. A retailer in my area has a demo model of the 840C with a transparent housing revealing the internals of the player. I'm not going to say its the best, but, this CDP is built. And better than most out there priced significantly higher.
Now regarding the observation about the use of an AVR for amplification. Kiwi, it's an AVR world, and I believe that Cambridge understands that. It all depends on what the owner's goal is for their system
(2 channel and/or multi-channel), and it depends on the AVR. B&K, Anthem, Adcom, Sunfire, Cambridge Audio, Rotel,
NAD, Marantz, Yamaha (Z series), Denon 5308 and 5805, I can go on and on. All of these manufactures have introduced AVR's. Why do I mention these manufacturers? All except for Yamaha, have separates. They have taken the capabilities of their pre/pro's and multi-channel amp combos and put it into one box, stating that these AVR's perform close to the level of the separates. These receivers would do an adequate job handling the 840C. Are they as good as separates? Depends on what AVR and Separates you are comparing. In my honest opinion, I believe that Cambridge designed this CDP for the consumer who desires audiophile quality but is limited by the expense of having that experience. They made a player that could possibly take the owner's existing system to a higher level of performance, without the immediate need of upgrading his or her's entire system. Not saying that one shouldn't upgrade their system to match the 840's performance, but if you have a decent system, you shouldn't feel compelled to trash everything else you have in a immediate fashion. You can have an improved listening experience with the addition of the 740 or the 840C.
Just an opinion.
Thanks again for your input.

Regards.

[ldgibson76]

Hopefully no Cambridge Audio owners will be offended by this, but my ONLY real reason for being reluctant to purchase a CA product has been consumer feedback on quality control....

I've read so many amazing critical reviews for CA products only to check out the consumer feedback and see some really dissapointing complaints about products failing... e.g. the 640C with dual DACs, I read several reviews about one channel dying etc... and I guess what sealed the fear for me was that one of the only 2 times I've auditioned CA gear, the product did something truly strange...

I was in a pretty crappy wannabe-high-end-audio store (it carried many really good lines but set them all up poorly) and I auditioned a CA 540A&C combo with a pair of Quad 21Ls... I put on some good old Billie Jean and had to kill the volume quickly... The CD player was having trouble playing the disc (no idea why, since it played on a NAD and a Marantz CD player with no trouble)... but instead of just giving an error message or taking a while to load etc.... the CD played but sounded like a scratched record, with music coming out and then some awful screaching, breaking up and lines repeating... It was the strangest experience I've ever had with a CD player....

I'm sure many proud CA owners have had trouble free years with their products, but I guess my initial fears combined with that really awful experience, have made me truly reluctant to give CA gear a try....

Hello "Ajani".

I must be a very fortunate soul. I've never had an issue with my 640C v.2. I mean, problem free (knock on wood) and I've owned this CDP for almost 2 years now. I've read consumer reviews also and I've seen the complaints with quality control. But one thing is evident, the sound quality, when it's functioning properly, is beyond anything they've heard before, for the most part. I believe that their QC is no worst than anyone else's out there. Remember, bad news travels 10 times faster than good news! I own a Denon DVD2910. And it's been problem free for 2 years. An awesome universal player. Until now, I've never once mention it in the forum. The same goes with my Yamaha CDC 685 CD changer or my Pioneer Elite DVR-7000 and so forth and so on.....They do exactly what they are supposed to do. And even if I did have a problem, I don't think I would stand on the mountain top and shout about it. But Cambridge Audio is making products that are becoming worthy of attention in it's respective class/category. Moral of the story. Every manufacturer has a hiccup every now and then, and their success is dependent on how they address the and correct the issue....Just an opinion.

Regards.

[ldgibson76]

Does anyone realize that Cambridge Audio has rejuvenated the CDP business, especially with all the crap that being offered to the public on CD's. According to the critics, the recording quality on cd's today is diminishing more and more. Yes, the recording level may be higher, but the clarity and dynamic range could be compromised resulting in unwanted distortion (open thread below). (This not true for all). But, I'm sure we all have heard at least one badly produced CD. So a high quality CDP is almost tantamount to having a decent listening experience. Speaking to a rep at a leading retailer for Cambridge told me that most of the people considering and/or purchasing the Azur product are those who basically conceded to using their DVD player or universal player for CD playback. They would have loved to owned a high quality CDP, but to own one met embezzelling from their kids college fund or selling an internal organ just to have a taste of audiophile like quality. The Rep said that their number one selling product as of right now, by far, is the 840C. And they have a large selection of products available. Every time they receive a shipment, they are already sold. A friggin CD Player! That's pretty strong!

http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/...s/dynamics.htm

[Ajani]

Hello "Ajani".

I must be a very fortunate soul. I've never had an issue with my 640C v.2. I mean, problem free (knock on wood) and I've owned this CDP for almost 2 years now. I've read consumer reviews also and I've seen the complaints with quality control. But one thing is evident, the sound quality, when it's functioning properly, is beyond anything they've heard before, for the most part. I believe that their QC is no worst than anyone else's out there. Remember, bad news travels 10 times faster than good news! I own a Denon DVD2910. And it's been problem free for 2 years. An awesome universal player. Until now, I've never once mention it in the forum. The same goes with my Yamaha CDC 685 CD changer or my Pioneer Elite DVR-7000 and so forth and so on.....They do exactly what they are supposed to do. And even if I did have a problem, I don't think I would stand on the mountain top and shout about it. But Cambridge Audio is making products that are becoming worthy of attention in it's respective class/category. Moral of the story. Every manufacturer has a hiccup every now and then, and their success is dependent on how they address the and correct the issue....Just an opinion.

Regards.

That's good... I really want to hear more users having had positive experiences with CA products.... Since I've only had two and while one was actually quite good a CA/Monitor Audio RS6 combo, the other (which I described earlier) was tragic....

Since I'm in either the best or worst position to be in as audio lover right now... I need to rebuild my 2 channel setup..... I'm following a lot of threads very closely to know what brands to give serious consideration... and assuming that the CA 740A&C combo is reliable, then it would be high up on my list... based on features (digital volume control, 100 watts and a DAC for use with my computer audio)....

[ldgibson76]

I'd add Monitor Audio, Energy, PSB and for a change of pace... probably Dynaudio and Totem.... It's best to listen to as many speakers as you can, since they best brand for you may well be one you've not heard yet...

Monitor Audio,energy and PSB are above average speaker manufacturers. Unfortunately, not all are available for auditioning in my market area. I'm not traveling outside of a 25 mile radius
in my quest for the perfect speaker system for my needs. I consider myself fortunate to have been able to audition the 4 products in a 5.1 set up, mentioned in my previous post. I will do some research to see if any of the products you've mentioned are available for demonstration in my area. I have an appointment at 2:30 to check out the 6 and 7 series B&W's.
I'll update later.
by the way, the retailer where I listened to the Paradigms with the Marantz told me if I wanted, I could bring in my 640C v.2 and connect it to the Marantz SR9600 to get a better idea of how the system could sound in my home. Not bad huh?!

[ldgibson76]

Being that I have the CA Azur 640C v.2, does anyone know anything about the SID and if I added the SID (Sound Improvement Disc, would or could it improve the performance of CDP?! Is it hype or what?
Any input is welcomed?!

Here's a fine example of a music lover's unwavering need to improve on what he currently has no matter how simplistic the perceived enhancement.

[kiwi_1282001]

Hello "Kiwi". Welcome to Audio Review!

Now regarding the observation about the use of an AVR for amplification. Kiwi, it's an AVR world, and I believe that Cambridge understands that. It all depends on what the owner's goal is for their system (2 channel and/or multi-channel), and it depends on the AVR. B&K, Anthem, Adcom, Sunfire, Cambridge Audio, Rotel, NAD, Marantz, Yamaha (Z series), Denon 5308 and 5805, I can go on and on. All of these manufactures have introduced AVR's. Why do I mention these manufacturers? All except for Yamaha, have separates. They have taken the capabilities of their pre/pro's and multi-channel amp combos and put it into one box, stating that these AVR's perform close to the level of the separates. These receivers would do an adequate job handling the 840C.
Regards.

Thanks for the welcome. I think its a case of matching like for like. When i owned a 640C v2 i connected it to my AVR. No problem with that. When i upgraded to an 840C i connected that to a dedicated two channel amplifier. Why? Because to get the most out of the 840C this is generally the recommended route. There are not too many AVR's out there with balanced XLR inputs. Yet, to get the most out of an 840C you really need to use this connection.

[ldgibson76]

Thanks for the welcome. I think its a case of matching like for like. When i owned a 640C v2 i connected it to my AVR. No problem with that. When i upgraded to an 840C i connected that to a dedicated two channel amplifier. Why? Because to get the most out of the 840C this is generally the recommended route. There are not too many AVR's out there with balanced XLR inputs. Yet, to get the most out of an 840C you really need to use this connection.

Hello Again "Kiwi"!

I concur with "like for like" analogy. Of course, if you have the means to upgrade your current system with XLR capable components, then by all means, do so. That's definitely the best scenario for connectivity and performance.
There is a discussion currently going on in the General Audio section of the forum regarding the possible death of Hi-End audio and the reasons why. The viewpoints are very interesting.
And it seems to be a stateside dilemma. How is hi-end industry doing in New Zealand?!

[kiwi_1282001]

There is a discussion currently going on in the General Audio section of the forum regarding the possible death of Hi-End audio and the reasons why. The viewpoints are very interesting.
And it seems to be a stateside dilemma. How is hi-end industry doing in New Zealand?!

The short answer is the hi-end industry in NZ is not going well. Its a little off topic but i started a thread in AudioENZ last year entitled - "High end stereo - a sunset industry?"

My thesis was that changing demographics, generations, smaller homes etc all mean't that hi-end faced a difficult future. Have you been to a HiFi show lately? If so, have you noticed how old the average hobbist is? This is not a young mans game. The younger generation are no longer paying $30 for a new CD - they are paying $30 for an internet connection and downloading their music for free. The youth of today are not interested in big audio systems which are bolted to the floor of a house. They want music wherever they are and we see the natural outcome of this - mobile MP3 devices.

[audio amateur]

I'd say in general that we're a pretty rare species

[JohnMichael]

Being that I have the CA Azur 640C v.2, does anyone know anything about the SID and if I added the SID (Sound Improvement Disc, would or could it improve the performance of CDP?! Is it hype or what?
Any input is welcomed?!

Here's a fine example of a music lover's unwavering need to improve on what he currently has no matter how simplistic the perceived enhancement.

I have used the SID in both my Marantz CD5001 and Marantz SA8001 and hear a true sonic improvement. Better focus, smoother treble and greater definition when the SID is used. I am not sure how much improvement you will hear with the CA 640C but I would think it would be a benefit. Several members use the SID in various players and report benefits.

[Mr Peabody]

What's the SID, is it that burn in disc you can get from musicdirect? I thought that sounded like "snake oil" but if you guys say it works I might have to check one out.

[Feanor]

What's the SID, is it that burn in disc you can get from musicdirect? I thought that sounded like "snake oil" but if you guys say it works I might have to check one out.

Mr. P, check out this thread.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks Feanor. It's not what I thought. They do sell a burn in or tuning disc that is supposed to make your gear sound better after playing it. That's what I thought SID was. I'd be willing to try it but the EAD transport is similar to the Pioneer E-stat described. Are you going to sell your 750p? Is shipping crazy many from Canada?