Arcam vs. Rotel vs. Cambridge Audio

[Arch]

I am in the market to purchase a new CD player in the $1000 cdn range. After a lot of internet search, I have narrowed my choice of CD player to the following:

Arcam CD73t
Rotel RCD-1070
Cambridge Audio Azur 640c

Any suggestion on what's the best all-rounder?

[RGA]

Why do you want to spend $1000.00?

Is there a reason or are you just relying on reviews? I have owned some high end cd players heard many high end cd players. I don't think they all sound the same but I will say this...there are some inexpnsive cd players that in my opinion are just as good if not better (though they're DIFFERENT) than some very pricey units. A lot of high end models deliberately alter the sound so they stand out and you should be careful not to fall into the review trap...I have done so and I'm offering this as a learn from my mistakes approach.

A lot of speakers have a bright treble...then dealers try ans sella cd player that will FIX the problem which it really doesn't - it will for a while because you BELIEVE it will. I have issues with metal tweeters and a lot of err MOST speakers using them. They begin to fatigue and people THINK it's the cd player or cables.

I have a very well reviewed Cambridge Audio CD 6(their top model a few years ago) and a new Sony CDP 355 300 disc changer. And quite frankly the difference are extremely small in sound and if you're overly anal and you listen through great headphones the Cambridge has a bit more bass depth. That is attributable to a different DA Converter no doubt.

Now - The Sony 300 disc player wins out on price being about 1/3 the price. It easily wins out on the fun factor and the features factor. You don't have to leave the chair.

Best of all it has a jack on the back to let you add an External DAC perhaps from Audio Note or any other high end DAC you wish(make sure you try before you buy).

I know a lot of people thumb their nose at these players but wquite frankly I seriously doubt 95% of people are going to notice the difference and even then are going to for sure pick the Arcam, Rotel or Cambridge.

In fact those companies are trying to tell you something. Arcam had an upgradable DAC. Which means all the TRANSPORTS were identical. And then the reviews raved about the higher models...when all that was changed was the DAC. Think about that. If it's the DAC that matters which is the only theoretical part of the player that should then why not get a tranport like the Sony(or 3 of em) that does it all?

[Arch]

Thanks RGA.

I have talked to a few local shops in my area, with vastly different recommandations on the best way to build up a good system. Once source suggested that I should look into a high end second hand player that is above the 1000 dollar mark when new, the rationale is that in that price range, a player will start to include high quality hardware like better power supplies, better DACs, lower jitter measurment, etc etc. In another shop I got the opposite opinion: DAC technologies had gone through a vast improvment in the last 2 or 3 years, to the point where a sub-1000 dollar player today will sound better than a player costing twice as expensive a couple of years ago.

All this is very, very confusing. And I suspected that, like what RGA said, that ultimately these guys are trying to sell me something. (I'm sure a lot of newbies like me does a lot of easy purchases based on reviews so it is easy for these guys to get away with a sale.) I have booked an appointment tomorrow to audition the Cambridge Audio 540c and 640c, and I will visit another local dealer tonight that carries both the Arcam and Rotel line.

Because the different shops will setup the demos using very different amps and speakers, these listerning sessions will not be totally objective. That's why I'm asking if any of you out there who has experiences with these players.

[RGA]

First you're correct - not listening in the same set-up isn't objective at all since you have no way to know whether the success or failure is the cd player or the amp or speakers or the room or the positioning of the set-up. SO the best sounding system ma be totally unrelated to the cd player.

The other thing is that a lot of people judge the quality of the transport on the tray that goes in and out. yet when the cd goes into the player the tray has nothing to do with the transport...a clamp - a plastic clamp in all these players lifts the cd up.

Jitter is measurable...but a cheap player and an External DAC uses a buffer. the information picked up by the laser in the cheap player or an expensive player is identical - that info is sent to the DAC - which basically turns the 1s and 0s into music.

Thus it makes more sense to me to buy a highly functional feature laden player such as a mega changer and buy an external dac from MSB Link DAC or Audio Note etc than a single disc player that as a transport has zero value. Better power cords are a scam - and it does not require better power supplies to operate a cd player.

The only part of the cd player that could be better is the small amplification step which is sent to preamp section of the amp. Again though that is done after the DAC stage.

I'm not saying you won't find a better sounding cd player than a mega changer...however, I would want a home audition of one against a single disc player.

My dealer had a nice set-up with a Pioneer Elite 300 disc changer and the best transports from Wadia Theta and Enlightened Audio Designs. As a transport they were all the same sounding being fed into the top of the line Cal Labs DAC running through the best Bryston Monoblocks and Martin Logan Oddyseys...a system over $30k Cdn.

Even sighted no one could tell the difference - exceopt that the cheapest transport was by far the most functional and IMO the best looking.

[Arch]

This is fascinating.

2 questions:

1) If I eventually want to upgrade my CD player, providing that my transport is working well, does it mean that the way to go is to buy a external DAC and hook it up to whatever player I will eventually have?

2) What about a DVD player? What if I connect a CD DAC to the digital output of my DVD machine? Will that sound identical to a CD transport?

[Arch]

I dropped by one of the local dealer last night (where I will audition the Cambridge Audio players tomorrow), I noticed a CD DAC / Transport combo from 47 Laboratory (don't remember what model).... the transport has no trays, no slots. The entire unit is nothing but a silver metallic box, slighly bigger than a thick paperback novel. The transport is exposed on top of the machine. To load the disc, you simply place it on the transport, weight it down with a cap, and it starts playing.... wonderful sounding setup too, might I add.

[musicman1999]

read your post with interest as i too am cd player shopping and am looking at some of the same machines as you.i was able to directly compare the two cambridge players and the arcam cd73,all with camdridge audio power and jm labs speakers,same as i have at home.
i found that both cambridge players are very solid units at their price points(the 640 is $200.00 cdn more).the 640 was as good a $600 player as i have heard imo.the arcam was was another story,(btw it has the same wolfson dac as the 640)but it is after the dac where
the difference appears.the arcam was so clear and detailed that when we went back to the 640 it seemed a blanket was placed over the speakers.well worth the extra $300.00
imo.i have not heard the rotel yet,but it will really have to be something,or the arcam will soon be mine.like to hear if you agree when you listen.have fun

[RGA]

This is fascinating.

2 questions:

1) If I eventually want to upgrade my CD player, providing that my transport is working well, does it mean that the way to go is to buy a external DAC and hook it up to whatever player I will eventually have?

2) What about a DVD player? What if I connect a CD DAC to the digital output of my DVD machine? Will that sound identical to a CD transport?

Firstly any difference is attributable to the dac stage. So theoretically a better DAC in the cambridge or Arcam will plausably sound better. But WHY pay for the transport as well? Especially if you have a transport already. Yes you could use a DVD player just the same...though it may disrupt the movies sound adversely.

DACs in a lot of players are internally upgradeable - which tells you the only part of the machine that has an effect is the DAC. If I had $1200.00 to spend I would buy a changer and an Audio Note or some other external DAC and I get great sound and lots of features.

Or I can buy a single disc changer with a far worse DAC and no features with a sound no better and probably inferior for the Same. Gee this is not too hard to choose.

And what if you get that sub $200.00 feature laden changer home and oh wow in fact it sounds very damn good all by itself? The Audio Note Dac 1.1 is ~$850.00US. Now UHF magazine just reviewed the unit with the matching transport and said it bettered their mega buck reference cd player.

You have to dig this stuff up because if you JUST read the heavily advertised American magazines you're going to buy the usual Arcam, Cambridge and Rotel. As transports they are no better than a mega changer. They may use a better DAC...and they may sound slightly better...but gone are the days when cheaper cd players sounded really bright or shrill. The Sony mega changer actually sounds sweet in the highs.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue2/andac.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/audionote_dac11.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/audionote11kit_e.html
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...anmeetsmsb.htm


Best of all the Audio Note DACs are upgradeable all the way up to their $50,000.00 model. All of their stuff is upgradeable with their top of the line system being over half a million smackers. For the fun here is a review of one of the more ridiculously priced DACs
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ac5special.htm
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=439

[nickway]

Wow, back the boat up here.

Transports do not make a difference??? Thats not true, they make a huge difference! This is such a big subject that I do not have the time to type all the reasons.

First let me start off by saying that the tranport is the first item in your chain of gear. If you have a bad signal from the start none of your other components are going to fix it. If you had a $100 CD player feeding a Mark Levinson amp to a set of Martin Logan speakers or any other high end gear, it would sound awful. The fact is that all you will hear is just how bad the source (the $100 CD player) is not how good the other stuff is. Amps and speakers are designed to be NEUTRAL and to change to sound as little as possible. They will not make a bad source sound better.

Most people see CD's as reading like a record in a linear fashion but the is NOT the case. They read infomation in thirds. The information is divided up into three sections on the CD, so as the laser reads it put all three sections together to get the data. If for some reason it can only get 2 of the 3 pieces it will use error correction to guess what the third piece of information. Now I do not know about you but I do not want a CD player to guess what the CD acually says. It is quite simple really, the better the transport the more information that can be sent to the DAC for decoding.

If transposts did not make a difference then why does the Linn Genki and Linn Ikemi sound different? The use the same DAC! The only thing that is differenet of other than balance outputs is the transport. The Genki uses a philips CDM12 transport while the Ikemi uses a custom built Linn transport. Any person who has ever listen to these two players can tell you that the Ikemi sounds much better. Wether the Ikemi is is worth twice as much is another question depends on your budget. But the fact is the transport makes things sound different.

As a test take your current CD player and place about 10-15 pounds of books, or anything else really heavy on your player. Put it over the transport if you can and then sit down a listen to an album you know really well. Then take the weight off and see if you can hear the difference. Somethings tells me that you will like it with the weight on it.

What is does is reduce some of the vibration in the player allowing the transport to get a better reading of the disc and thus send more info to the DAC.

Imagine it kinda like a record: if the record is wobbling around the stylus will have a hard time getting a good reading on it and the best phono stage in the world will not make it sound any better. In a sense the same is true for CD. If the CD is wobbling around due to a bad transport, the laser is not going to get a good reading on it so the best DAC in the world is still not going to make the transport work or sound any better.

Now in all of this I still have not taken into acount the laser quality, power supply quality are anything else in there. When I said I would not have time to explain everything I ment it. Check out UHF magizine quick high fidelity reading coure. http://www.uhfmag.com/book1.html It is quite good. I would recommend the books, they will tell you everything I did and more. If your are going to get them, get both of them. They are worth it. Look on thier websitw www.uhfmag.com and they have special internet deal were you can save some money.

Well I hope this helps. The next time someone says to use a mega changer as a transport and tells you it will not make a difference, do not believe them. To most people they simply do not know any better and there own rational and what companies like JVC has said has taught them otherwise.

Cheerio and good luck.

I would recomment a Rega Planet by the way. You can find them new for about $1200 canadian if you look and call around. From what I hear they sound mighty nice. And my ears are acustom to my best friends Wadia CD player.

[Arch]

Just came back from a listerning session during lunch time, I sampled the Rotel RCD-1072 and the Arcam CD72 side by side. The Arcam CD72 is a clearance model and is therefor cheaper than the Rotel, which is a current model.

The players were paired up with a Rotel pre-amp and power amp with B&W speakers. After a couple of songs I think they are both very good players. The Arcam has a slightly narrower soundstage, but the highs are very forward and detail. The Rotel on the other hand has a very wide soundstage, has slightly richer base, but overall much more lay back than the Arcam... I can see now how different 2 cd players of similar price can sound. I suspect the Arcam definitely WOW you in the listerning sessioin, but once it is settled at home it might sound quite bright. The Rotel might not sound as "alive" as the Arcam, but it is true that it is "accurate", like what others say about this player.

Tonight I will test the Cambridge Audio twins (540c & 640c). Stay tuned.

[RGA]

As a test take your current CD player and place about 10-15 pounds of books, or anything else really heavy on your player. Put it over the transport if you can and then sit down a listen to an album you know really well. Then take the weight off and see if you can hear the difference. Somethings tells me that you will like it with the weight on it.

First of all don't just regurgitate UHF. It happens to be one of my favorite magazines and I subscribe to it but quite frankly they're deluded on transports and there is simply ZERO evidence of any kind to support that transports make any differences that are audible. I am not a double blind test supporter by the way but you have to at least shoew MEASURABLE differences in the audible spectrum...and there are NO audible measurable differences on transports. Besides that a loaded 300 disc cd player is FAR heavier than any player your talking about.

Jitter has nothing to do with weight. Is a clocking issue and UHF was probably right 15 years ago but DACs today buffer out ALL and ANY possible jitter effect...it is not unlike a portable cd player today compared to those of 10 years ago. The information is completely scanned FIRST and ffrom the DAC creates sound.

The issue with the Linn if there really is one and not a bias from delusion is at the output stage. A CD player is actually a Pre-pre-amp. The stage where the cd player sends information to your amp can have an audible change - there are measurable differences in the audible spectrum between DACs.

Transports have none. SO whatever change you heard between the Linn has absolutely nothing to do with the transport. Audio note makes perhhaps the most expensive DACs in the worl up over $60kUS...interesting that their top transport is $1200.00US and is a Phillips that they modded. (They throw a cheaper one in with the $50k DAC.

I like UHF, but their source first theory is simply out of date and frankly they comment on things they have not heard. They make assumptions based on price and on name.

Quite frankly I heard the Rega Planet and it alters the sound with a deliberate reverberation in the audible band...I would be very surprised if that cd player was not picked up in a double blind test incidentally. It may sound good to some people but it's less accurate and IMO worse than a mega changer in terms of accuracy. Rega is trying to make their player sound more like LP and it works on some cds and butchers others.

I'm not saying there is no difference in cd players - and indeed many people may like the Rega over the mega changer because once there is a difference it will depend on preference. In fact all of the transport supporters have zero REASON or can tell anyyone WHY or WHAT makes a good transport and what does not. UHF has not explained it EVER.

And if you truly wanted to get a cd player with no jitter you would buy from Audio Note and basically nobody else...because their player has none, no oversampling no error correction of any kind because their clock perfectly matches and creates no errors. And even then reviewers gripe sometimes about the sound. ??

[Arch]

Well I had a busy day yesterday.

Listerned to the Rotel and Arcam yesterday at lunch time, and then I listerned to the Cambridges' after work. The Cambridges were paired up with a pair of JM Reynaud speakers and a Classe integrated amp.

Knowing that the system setup is totally different between my two auditions, I might as well not compared the 2 sessions at all. In retrospect I think the B&W speaker did not do the Rotel and Arcam justice - they just didn't sounded as good as I expected. My Cambridge Audio test setup, on the other hand, is beautiful.

After an hour of A/B test between the 540c and the 640c, the 640c won hands down. Vocal is so much clearer with the 640c, the soundstage is more defined, the base a "little" bit better.

My final conclusion (and this is indeed very, very subjective) is that the Cambridge 640c is almost as good as the Arcam and the Rotel, the vocals dosen't sound too forward, has great details, good base and imageing. Plus it is quite a bit cheaper than both the Arcam and the Rotel (I managed to located two dealers that has the Arcam CD72t and Rotel RCD-1070 on sale, but I got such a sweet deal on the 640c that it is still more than $200 cdn cheaper than the "sales" price of the other 2 - which means the 640c is $400 cdn cheaper than the suggested retail of the Rotel and the Arcam...)

The Cambridge 640c won me over in terms of cost / performance. It is now sitting next to my speakers, waiting for me to come home tonight...

With the money I saved, I picked up a pair of DH Lab silver interconnects and a in-house heavy duty power cord - and my total is still cheaper than the Rotel / Arcam BEFORE TAX.

I also figured that with the Cambridge, I should have a reasonably good and durable transport, so that down the road, I might entertain the idea of a outboard DACs... my dealer is a totally cool guy, so perhaps after I upgrade my amp and speakers, I can borrow one of his 47 Lab DACs and give it a test...

BTW, thanks for everybody's comments. Much appericated.

[Arch]

Just another observation in regard to musicman1999's post: I was told that the Cambridge 640c takes quite a bit of time to break in - somewhere in the 100 hour range. The demo I listerned to has been totally broken in according to my dealer. Just wondering if this is a factor in your listerning session. I still think the Arcam / Rotel are "slightly" better performers, but I wasn't prepare to pay the premium to get it.

Here are the prices I found:

Cambridge 640c - $700 cdn sug. retail, paid $580
Rotel RCD-1070 - $1000 cdn sug. retail, $775 on sale
Arcam CD72t - $1000 cdn sug. retail, $800 on sale

[musicman1999]

arch
i am not sure how much time the cambridge units had on them,but the arcam had only been out of the box for about a week,so not much time.our experiences differed a bit in that i was able to hear both players through the same amp and speakers,which closely matched what i have at home and the arcam i heard was the newer cd73.but the cambridge if a fine player and you will enjoy it.i also just ordered the azur 540d matching dvd v/a player and am eagerly awaiting its arrival.enjoy your cambridge.

[RGA]

Arch

I don't know where you're getting some of this delusional information from...the dealers, internet people or just plain ripoff artists.

Power cords make zero difference, none dilch nad zippo...total waste of money - no difference not one. There is no such thing as break in on ANY solid state device whatsoever. Speakers have shown measurable differnece because speakers have moveable parts...even then the differences are relatively minor. Tube amplifiers may require break-in err warm-up to sound their best...but tubes built today do that in about 1 minute not 100 hours. THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!! A cd player is a micro chip and some wires...there is nothing to warm up and nothing to break in...electrical flow does not change in a wire.

I have expensive very highly reviewed Tara Labs interconnects(I got for free) for my Cambrisge Audio - they look nice and all - they sound no better than the cable thrown in the box for $5.00 but boy do they look good. Interconnects are a tax on the uninformed and have profits 10 times that AT LEAST of any componant.

It is possible that the higher Cambridge model sounds better than the lower model so on that it's plausible.

[Arch]

Luckily, what I didn't mentioned is that the heavy duty power cord and the DH Lab interconnects are on loan from the shop (after my hesitation with paying so much for both right away) . Secondly the Cambridge I took home is the demo unit I tested, and I will be swapping it with a brand new unit next week when it arrives. The idea is when I go back to pick up the new player, I'll decide whether I'll keep the cables or not.

So this morning I dig up a spare computer power cord in the basement and I will spend the rest of the day playing around with the connections and give it a listen.

Since I am now listening to the "broken in" demo from the shop, when I pick up the brand new unit next week I'll experience what a "un-broken in" player might sound like too.

Live and Learn.

BTW, the Cambridge is sounding fantastic in my system alreay.

[RGA]

Good to hear you can take the chords back...the one that comes with your NEW Cambridge is fine.

A dealer here told me he makes more profit on $60.00 Cables than he makes on $600.00TV or amplifiers. That is why they push it...no different than aluminum siding and rust proofing already rust-proofed cars.

It's a way to make money.

Selling cables is easier than working and safer than stealing. The only cord that can make a slight improvemement is video cable...and even here it should not require more than a Radio Shack $20.00 type investment.

[Geoffcin]

read your post with interest as i too am cd player shopping and am looking at some of the same machines as you.i was able to directly compare the two cambridge players and the arcam cd73,all with camdridge audio power and jm labs speakers,same as i have at home.
i found that both cambridge players are very solid units at their price points(the 640 is $200.00 cdn more).the 640 was as good a $600 player as i have heard imo.the arcam was was another story,(btw it has the same wolfson dac as the 640)but it is after the dac where
the difference appears.the arcam was so clear and detailed that when we went back to the 640 it seemed a blanket was placed over the speakers.well worth the extra $300.00
imo.i have not heard the rotel yet,but it will really have to be something,or the arcam will soon be mine.like to hear if you agree when you listen.have fun

Exactly how I percieved it. If people tell you that you cannot hear the difference between CD players, then they are not doing critical listening. The Arcam had the best sound that I've heard in a sub 1k CD player hands down. I've really only heard one player that was noticably better at all, (very slightly) and that was a >3k Meridian 508!

Once you up in this league with your digital source you can sleep easy knowing that your getting all that you can from your CD's.

[rb122]

And if you truly wanted to get a cd player with no jitter you would buy from Audio Note and basically nobody else...because their player has none, no oversampling no error correction of any kind because their clock perfectly matches and creates no errors. And even then reviewers gripe sometimes about the sound. ??

You mention both the Rega Planet which I own and the Audio Note. Does your comment above pertain to Audio Note Dac's? I just borrowed a Dac 1.1x to play around with late last night. Haven't hooked it up yet as I see I'm missing anything resembling a digital cable - not even a spare video cable around the house. I have the opportunity to purchase this for $375 if I like it.

[nickway]

It is ovious that we are not going to see eye to eye on the transport issue, or ear to ear I should say. I was not simply regurgitating UHF merley stating what I have found with my old Cambridge Audio D500. My personal findings were that with extra wieght on the machine is that there was better focus and a wider soundstage in addtion to more depth.

There is really not point in arguing with each other as I am sure we both know excatly what the other persons argument is going to be.

I am also a firm beliver in upgrading interconnects, I understand your point of view and simply disagree with it. I will agree however that the price they charge on cables is highway robbery.

Arch you should buy something that you are happy with because ultimatly it is your money and you are the one who has to listen to it. And that is something that I am sure RGA and I can both agree on.

[Arch]

Thanks Nickway.

I have just entered a rather long post under "best CD player under $1000?" explaining my experience with upgraded power cords this past weekend.

I'm pretty sure now that I can hear differences between different types of cables. But the most important question is "is it worth it?".

I've decided to keep the DH Labs BL-1 interconnect (probably do a bit of bargining first!) and I will not take the $90 power cord - too little gain for too much money.

[RGA]

You mention both the Rega Planet which I own and the Audio Note. Does your comment above pertain to Audio Note Dac's? I just borrowed a Dac 1.1x to play around with late last night. Haven't hooked it up yet as I see I'm missing anything resembling a digital cable - not even a spare video cable around the house. I have the opportunity to purchase this for $375 if I like it.

I should start by saying that my comment is based on the Original Rega Planet not the second and subsequent generations.

The Audio Note DAC is supposed to be very good though I heard their one box player. Additionally, and something you should be aware of, is that the Audio note DAC does not work with all transports...something to doi with a very high impedence requiring a 47kohm input or some such stuff. However if it is a match you're set.

UHF reviewed it along with the transport in their last issue.

[rb122]

I should start by saying that my comment is based on the Original Rega Planet not the second and subsequent generations.

The Audio Note DAC is supposed to be very good though I heard their one box player. Additionally, and something you should be aware of, is that the Audio note DAC does not work with all transports...something to doi with a very high impedence requiring a 47kohm input or some such stuff. However if it is a match you're set.

UHF reviewed it along with the transport in their last issue.

What one box player? I couldn't find anything like that on their website.

You're right about compatibility. The Dac seems to roll off the upper frequencies, resulting in a nice, smooth, warm, dull presentation. I wonder what transport/CD player might work? This seems to be a case where knowing and understanding technical measurements would be essential!

[RGA]

What one box player? I couldn't find anything like that on their website.

You're right about compatibility. The Dac seems to roll off the upper frequencies, resulting in a nice, smooth, warm, dull presentation. I wonder what transport/CD player might work? This seems to be a case where knowing and understanding technical measurements would be essential!

The problem Audio Note has is that their equipment is designed to work in their systems - so how it does in other systems requires the buyer to figure out...and because their design is totally different than the vast majority of gear well --- it's not overly surprising people have issues with their DACs.

The other thing to Note is that they have two 1.1X DAC's - the newer one is supposed to be a lot better which was reviewed in the current issue of UHF and is anything BUT rolled off...the old one was reviewed with lesser results in Hi-Fi CHoice and received 3 stars out of 5 which was viewed as solid but not exceptional because it's too different sounding. Personal; taste again.

The measurements of the DAC is in UHF.

[RGA]

Ohh the single disc player is called the CD 2.