Arcam vs. Rotel vs. Cambridge Audio

[Arch]

I am in the market to purchase a new CD player in the $1000 cdn range. After a lot of internet search, I have narrowed my choice of CD player to the following:

Arcam CD73t
Rotel RCD-1070
Cambridge Audio Azur 640c

Any suggestion on what's the best all-rounder?

[RGA]

Why do you want to spend $1000.00?

Is there a reason or are you just relying on reviews? I have owned some high end cd players heard many high end cd players. I don't think they all sound the same but I will say this...there are some inexpnsive cd players that in my opinion are just as good if not better (though they're DIFFERENT) than some very pricey units. A lot of high end models deliberately alter the sound so they stand out and you should be careful not to fall into the review trap...I have done so and I'm offering this as a learn from my mistakes approach.

A lot of speakers have a bright treble...then dealers try ans sella cd player that will FIX the problem which it really doesn't - it will for a while because you BELIEVE it will. I have issues with metal tweeters and a lot of err MOST speakers using them. They begin to fatigue and people THINK it's the cd player or cables.

I have a very well reviewed Cambridge Audio CD 6(their top model a few years ago) and a new Sony CDP 355 300 disc changer. And quite frankly the difference are extremely small in sound and if you're overly anal and you listen through great headphones the Cambridge has a bit more bass depth. That is attributable to a different DA Converter no doubt.

Now - The Sony 300 disc player wins out on price being about 1/3 the price. It easily wins out on the fun factor and the features factor. You don't have to leave the chair.

Best of all it has a jack on the back to let you add an External DAC perhaps from Audio Note or any other high end DAC you wish(make sure you try before you buy).

I know a lot of people thumb their nose at these players but wquite frankly I seriously doubt 95% of people are going to notice the difference and even then are going to for sure pick the Arcam, Rotel or Cambridge.

In fact those companies are trying to tell you something. Arcam had an upgradable DAC. Which means all the TRANSPORTS were identical. And then the reviews raved about the higher models...when all that was changed was the DAC. Think about that. If it's the DAC that matters which is the only theoretical part of the player that should then why not get a tranport like the Sony(or 3 of em) that does it all?

[Arch]

Thanks RGA.

I have talked to a few local shops in my area, with vastly different recommandations on the best way to build up a good system. Once source suggested that I should look into a high end second hand player that is above the 1000 dollar mark when new, the rationale is that in that price range, a player will start to include high quality hardware like better power supplies, better DACs, lower jitter measurment, etc etc. In another shop I got the opposite opinion: DAC technologies had gone through a vast improvment in the last 2 or 3 years, to the point where a sub-1000 dollar player today will sound better than a player costing twice as expensive a couple of years ago.

All this is very, very confusing. And I suspected that, like what RGA said, that ultimately these guys are trying to sell me something. (I'm sure a lot of newbies like me does a lot of easy purchases based on reviews so it is easy for these guys to get away with a sale.) I have booked an appointment tomorrow to audition the Cambridge Audio 540c and 640c, and I will visit another local dealer tonight that carries both the Arcam and Rotel line.

Because the different shops will setup the demos using very different amps and speakers, these listerning sessions will not be totally objective. That's why I'm asking if any of you out there who has experiences with these players.

[RGA]

First you're correct - not listening in the same set-up isn't objective at all since you have no way to know whether the success or failure is the cd player or the amp or speakers or the room or the positioning of the set-up. SO the best sounding system ma be totally unrelated to the cd player.

The other thing is that a lot of people judge the quality of the transport on the tray that goes in and out. yet when the cd goes into the player the tray has nothing to do with the transport...a clamp - a plastic clamp in all these players lifts the cd up.

Jitter is measurable...but a cheap player and an External DAC uses a buffer. the information picked up by the laser in the cheap player or an expensive player is identical - that info is sent to the DAC - which basically turns the 1s and 0s into music.

Thus it makes more sense to me to buy a highly functional feature laden player such as a mega changer and buy an external dac from MSB Link DAC or Audio Note etc than a single disc player that as a transport has zero value. Better power cords are a scam - and it does not require better power supplies to operate a cd player.

The only part of the cd player that could be better is the small amplification step which is sent to preamp section of the amp. Again though that is done after the DAC stage.

I'm not saying you won't find a better sounding cd player than a mega changer...however, I would want a home audition of one against a single disc player.

My dealer had a nice set-up with a Pioneer Elite 300 disc changer and the best transports from Wadia Theta and Enlightened Audio Designs. As a transport they were all the same sounding being fed into the top of the line Cal Labs DAC running through the best Bryston Monoblocks and Martin Logan Oddyseys...a system over $30k Cdn.

Even sighted no one could tell the difference - exceopt that the cheapest transport was by far the most functional and IMO the best looking.

[Arch]

This is fascinating.

2 questions:

1) If I eventually want to upgrade my CD player, providing that my transport is working well, does it mean that the way to go is to buy a external DAC and hook it up to whatever player I will eventually have?

2) What about a DVD player? What if I connect a CD DAC to the digital output of my DVD machine? Will that sound identical to a CD transport?

[Arch]

I dropped by one of the local dealer last night (where I will audition the Cambridge Audio players tomorrow), I noticed a CD DAC / Transport combo from 47 Laboratory (don't remember what model).... the transport has no trays, no slots. The entire unit is nothing but a silver metallic box, slighly bigger than a thick paperback novel. The transport is exposed on top of the machine. To load the disc, you simply place it on the transport, weight it down with a cap, and it starts playing.... wonderful sounding setup too, might I add.

[RGA]

This is fascinating.

2 questions:

1) If I eventually want to upgrade my CD player, providing that my transport is working well, does it mean that the way to go is to buy a external DAC and hook it up to whatever player I will eventually have?

2) What about a DVD player? What if I connect a CD DAC to the digital output of my DVD machine? Will that sound identical to a CD transport?

Firstly any difference is attributable to the dac stage. So theoretically a better DAC in the cambridge or Arcam will plausably sound better. But WHY pay for the transport as well? Especially if you have a transport already. Yes you could use a DVD player just the same...though it may disrupt the movies sound adversely.

DACs in a lot of players are internally upgradeable - which tells you the only part of the machine that has an effect is the DAC. If I had $1200.00 to spend I would buy a changer and an Audio Note or some other external DAC and I get great sound and lots of features.

Or I can buy a single disc changer with a far worse DAC and no features with a sound no better and probably inferior for the Same. Gee this is not too hard to choose.

And what if you get that sub $200.00 feature laden changer home and oh wow in fact it sounds very damn good all by itself? The Audio Note Dac 1.1 is ~$850.00US. Now UHF magazine just reviewed the unit with the matching transport and said it bettered their mega buck reference cd player.

You have to dig this stuff up because if you JUST read the heavily advertised American magazines you're going to buy the usual Arcam, Cambridge and Rotel. As transports they are no better than a mega changer. They may use a better DAC...and they may sound slightly better...but gone are the days when cheaper cd players sounded really bright or shrill. The Sony mega changer actually sounds sweet in the highs.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue2/andac.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/audionote_dac11.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/audionote11kit_e.html
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...anmeetsmsb.htm


Best of all the Audio Note DACs are upgradeable all the way up to their $50,000.00 model. All of their stuff is upgradeable with their top of the line system being over half a million smackers. For the fun here is a review of one of the more ridiculously priced DACs
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ac5special.htm
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=439

[NASA*jhendrixfan*]

[[SIZE=3]FONT=Times New Roman]Please check out my recent posting. I realize that you are in Canada but I was wondering if you would share with me, in detail, how you went about deciding on the C-A 640c CDP. You mentioned that the ARCAM sounded better but that it was not worth the additional expense. It has received mixed reviews (some say it colors the sound) but the DAC is interchangeable. The older C-A D500SE cdp had this DAC feature but there is no mention of it in the 540c or 640c ads. So I do not know if C-A did away with that flexibility feature in their newest models or not.
Did you also evaluate the lesser and previous C-A, Arcam, Rotel, and NAD cdp models?
Like the 540c, D500SE, CD72(T), etc.?

[mark@blankmediauk.com]

Both the Arcam CD73T and Cambridge Audio use the same Wolfson WM8740 24-bit/192kHz DAC. So if it is just down to the DAC, you're really paying an extra £150 for the Arcam just because you like the look of it better. The Arcam build quality is better, you get CD text and the ability to switch of the display (???) - but you got it to listen to right?

[Feanor]

Both the Arcam CD73T and Cambridge Audio use the same Wolfson WM8740 24-bit/192kHz DAC. So if it is just down to the DAC, you're really paying an extra £150 for the Arcam just because you like the look of it better. The Arcam build quality is better, you get CD text and the ability to switch of the display (???) - but you got it to listen to right?

I won't be buying the Arcam either, because I decided the Azur wasn't as good as my Sony SCDCE775. Though maybe a little sweeter on top, the Azur didn't have the detail or air of the Sony.

BTW, the the successor to the Sony, above, is model, SCDCE595, which is only US$150. Or in Canada you can get an enhanced, ES version, SCDC2000ES, which is Cdn$700. And they play SACD too as well as being 5-disc changers! Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Fergymunster]

DAC's are outdated.Just an update;I have the CA Azur 640cv1.I'm using the high quality DAC built inside this CD player.Furthermore,I'm using a AQ king cobra rca running from the CD player into the Creek21se headphone amp.Then using the Sennheiser hd 650 with cardas cable to plug into the amp.In my estimate it's a cheap alternative to spending much more on a needless DAC.Just my opinion.

[funnyhat]

I am finding this thread intriguing as I am looking at upgrading my source, probably with either a Cambridge 640c or the Music Hall 25.2, but am also looking to replace my amp soon, looking at the same model lines. I keep going back and forth as to which to replace first, and these postings have me questioning how important the source is vs the amp. All thoughts are appreciated. If it matters, my speakers are paradigm studio 20s. Thanks

[Fergymunster]

Here you are Funnyhat.I looked up your speakers,I'm assuming they cost around $500.With that kind of purchuse your in it for the long haul.You have many options.CA, MH ,NAD etc..Then of course you have to consider speaker wire,interconnects and possibly power cords and power conditioners and the such.I also already directed you to a web site that carries CDP's and AMP's.I'm going to have to cut you loose now because with my set up I avoided amps and speakers.However,I'm sure some other people on this forum could carry you to the promise land.