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Wire is no Wire: The proof? You decide!
Brought home identical CD players.
Hook them up to my linestage. CD player one connected to the linestage via a interconnect from a high-end manufacturer. CD player two connected to the linestage via a cheap Radio Shack interconnect. Too bad Home Depoit does not make them!
Placed to indentical CD into each players.
Four friends sitting in room; the test subjects. They had no idea what I was going to do. None of them are even close to being audiophiles! Hell, two do not even own a system, just Boom Boxes. They thought me stranger than usual!
Pressed play on both remotes; made sure that the CD's were timed exactly!
Then I proceeded to switch back and forth between the two Cd players by turning selector knob on my linestage; input one and two.
Would the test subjects hear a difference?
YES, THEY DID!!! Not just one or two of then, but all four!
Take my test for what you will. Those you do not believe in the benefits a interconnect can make to the sound of a system, please, keep believing in what you believe in. I know you will shoot dowm my test because it wasn't a DBT. I'm sure you will find some kind of fault with how I conducted my test; you have to!
For those who are intrested in the notion that interconnects MAY benefit the sound your systems, try this test for yourself. Let YOUR EARS decide for you! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, PLEASE! Try this test yourselves. Again, what do you have to lose?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bturk667
Brought home identical CD players.
Hook them up to my linestage. CD player one connected to the linestage via a interconnect from a high-end manufacturer. CD player two connected to the linestage via a cheap Radio Shack interconnect. Too bad Home Depoit does not make them!
Placed to indentical CD into each players.
Four friends sitting in room; the test subjects. They had no idea what I was going to do. None of them are even close to being audiophiles! Hell, two do not even own a system, just Boom Boxes. They thought me stranger than usual!
Pressed play on both remotes; made sure that the CD's were timed exactly!
Then I proceeded to switch back and forth between the two Cd players by turning selector knob on my linestage; input one and two.
Would the test subjects hear a difference?
YES, THEY DID!!! Not just one or two of then, but all four!
Take my test for what you will. Those you do not believe in the benefits a interconnect can make to the sound of a system, please, keep believing in what you believe in. I know you will shoot dowm my test because it wasn't a DBT. I'm sure you will find some kind of fault with how I conducted my test; you have to!
For those who are intrested in the notion that interconnects MAY benefit the sound your systems, try this test for yourself. Let YOUR EARS decide for you! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, PLEASE! Try this test yourselves. Again, what do you have to lose?
I believe interconnects can make a difference, and it could be they did in your system. However, your experiment probably won't convince any doubters, since it wasn't double blind. From your description, I can't tell whether it was single-blind. Was the switching just AB,BA or did you try to conceal which interconnect was being used by adding some AA and BB?
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...........Why bother? What's the difference?...........Zapr.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bturk667
Brought home identical CD players.
Hook them up to my linestage. CD player one connected to the linestage via a interconnect from a high-end manufacturer. CD player two connected to the linestage via a cheap Radio Shack interconnect. Too bad Home Depoit does not make them!
Placed to indentical CD into each players.
Four friends sitting in room; the test subjects. They had no idea what I was going to do. None of them are even close to being audiophiles! Hell, two do not even own a system, just Boom Boxes. They thought me stranger than usual!
Pressed play on both remotes; made sure that the CD's were timed exactly!
Then I proceeded to switch back and forth between the two Cd players by turning selector knob on my linestage; input one and two.
Would the test subjects hear a difference?
YES, THEY DID!!! Not just one or two of then, but all four!
Take my test for what you will. Those you do not believe in the benefits a interconnect can make to the sound of a system, please, keep believing in what you believe in. I know you will shoot dowm my test because it wasn't a DBT. I'm sure you will find some kind of fault with how I conducted my test; you have to!
For those who are intrested in the notion that interconnects MAY benefit the sound your systems, try this test for yourself. Let YOUR EARS decide for you! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, PLEASE! Try this test yourselves. Again, what do you have to lose?
You mean besides the fact there is no way you can exactly cue them with a remote, nor were they level matched, nor were they even characterized for frequency response differences.
-Bruce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bturk667
I know you will shoot dowm my test because it wasn't a DBT.
sorry, but what does DBT stand for ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikki
sorry, but what does DBT stand for ?
Double-Blind Test
See this link for an explanation:
http://skepdic.com/control.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell
Thanks for the link Rockwell.
Here's what I got from the article
"A double-blind test is a control group test where neither the evaluator nor the subject knows which items are controls."
So I'm assuming a single-blind test would be...
A single-blind test is a control group test where the subject does not know which items are controls but the evaluator does. (my definition) Is it correct ?
Given that, I have the same question about this experiment that another reply did. Was it at least single-blinded ? Or did you lead the witnesses ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikki
Thanks for the link Rockwell.
Here's what I got from the article
"A double-blind test is a control group test where neither the evaluator nor the subject knows which items are controls."
So I'm assuming a single-blind test would be...
A single-blind test is a control group test where the subject does not know which items are controls but the evaluator does. (my definition) Is it correct ?
Given that, I have the same question about this experiment that another reply did. Was it at least single-blinded ? Or did you lead the witnesses ?
Yes, with single blind the person running the test knows what is being tested and may communicate with the testers invalidating the results.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bturk667
Brought home identical CD players.
Hook them up to my linestage. CD player one connected to the linestage via a interconnect from a high-end manufacturer. CD player two connected to the linestage via a cheap Radio Shack interconnect. Too bad Home Depoit does not make them!
Placed to indentical CD into each players.
Four friends sitting in room; the test subjects. They had no idea what I was going to do. None of them are even close to being audiophiles! Hell, two do not even own a system, just Boom Boxes. They thought me stranger than usual!
Pressed play on both remotes; made sure that the CD's were timed exactly!
Then I proceeded to switch back and forth between the two Cd players by turning selector knob on my linestage; input one and two.
Would the test subjects hear a difference?
YES, THEY DID!!! Not just one or two of then, but all four!
Take my test for what you will. Those you do not believe in the benefits a interconnect can make to the sound of a system, please, keep believing in what you believe in. I know you will shoot dowm my test because it wasn't a DBT. I'm sure you will find some kind of fault with how I conducted my test; you have to!
For those who are intrested in the notion that interconnects MAY benefit the sound your systems, try this test for yourself. Let YOUR EARS decide for you! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, PLEASE! Try this test yourselves. Again, what do you have to lose?
Beside what the others mentioned, how did you make sure the two CDs were in fact identical? Did you do a bit perfect check? Or just relied ont eh fact that the titles are the same?
Sorry, but to date, no DBT has been able to corroborate your findings. Maybe next year, Next century?
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Single blind test. There was no need to conceal the interconnects; they had no idea what was being tested. Okay, well other than themselves.
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Sorry, it is quite easy to cue them with a remote!
Level match? Why?
"Nor were they ever characterized for frequency response differences." How do you know they weren't. I never wrote either way. Would that make a difference it the way they would make my system sound?
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None of that was done I assure you!
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Trust me, it was no bother. In fact it was quite fun!
The difference is that there is a difference!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bturk667
None of that was done I assure you!
I believe you. :D
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Thank you, that is very nice of you! Most here would not have!?!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrycraft
Beside what the others mentioned, how did you make sure the two CDs were in fact identical? Did you do a bit perfect check? Or just relied ont eh fact that the titles are the same?
Sorry, but to date, no DBT has been able to corroborate your findings. Maybe next year, Next century?
"Beside what the others mentioned, how did you make sure the two CDs were in fact identical? Did you do a bit perfect check? Or just relied ont eh fact that the titles are the same?"
Are you intentionally attempting to obliterate your credibility, or is it just inadvertent?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bturk667
Brought home identical CD players.
Hook them up to my linestage. CD player one connected to the linestage via a interconnect from a high-end manufacturer. CD player two connected to the linestage via a cheap Radio Shack interconnect. Too bad Home Depoit does not make them!
Placed to indentical CD into each players.
Four friends sitting in room; the test subjects. They had no idea what I was going to do. None of them are even close to being audiophiles! Hell, two do not even own a system, just Boom Boxes. They thought me stranger than usual!
Pressed play on both remotes; made sure that the CD's were timed exactly!
Then I proceeded to switch back and forth between the two Cd players by turning selector knob on my linestage; input one and two.
Would the test subjects hear a difference?
YES, THEY DID!!! Not just one or two of then, but all four!
Take my test for what you will. Those you do not believe in the benefits a interconnect can make to the sound of a system, please, keep believing in what you believe in. I know you will shoot dowm my test because it wasn't a DBT. I'm sure you will find some kind of fault with how I conducted my test; you have to!
For those who are intrested in the notion that interconnects MAY benefit the sound your systems, try this test for yourself. Let YOUR EARS decide for you! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, PLEASE! Try this test yourselves. Again, what do you have to lose?
You did simply what the regulars here have been lectururing people to do for years - conduct a simply, at-home blind test.
But ALAS. Your results don't coincide with their religious view of wires and accordingly you are being "crucified". Who needs the Mel Gibson when you've got this group?
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One might wonder if the cables in question wer of the same length, gauge and construction. Likewise, due to accceptable production differences among hte same units, there is the possibility that one unit is minutely "louder" then the other.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pctower
"Beside what the others mentioned, how did you make sure the two CDs were in fact identical? Did you do a bit perfect check? Or just relied ont eh fact that the titles are the same?"
Are you intentionally attempting to obliterate your credibility, or is it just inadvertent?
You never heard of CD with the same title having different EQ applied to it? It happens and one doesn't know when in th epressing a new one is introduced. No, I don't have titles for you. People in the know know.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pctower
You did simply what the regulars here have been lectururing people to do for years - conduct a simply, at-home blind test.
But ALAS. Your results don't coincide with their religious view of wires and accordingly you are being "crucified". Who needs the Mel Gibson when you've got this group?
Naw, just questioning his results that no one else have replicated. I wonder if his simple test had a problem? Introduced bias by him? Other basic stuff? After all, the more flaws, the more positive outcomes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
One might wonder if the cables in question wer of the same length, gauge and construction. Likewise, due to accceptable production differences among hte same units, there is the possibility that one unit is minutely "louder" then the other.
Usually you would not admit that length, guage or construction would give any audiable difference yet now you question it.
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Oh,
I made similar tests with a idential CD and a CD player and a separate DAC with cheap cables from the DAC. Several times. No difference among the listeners. Oh yes, on one occasion by two listeners (including myself) but ascribed to that the DAC had about 0.4 dB higher output level than the CD player.
T
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External validity
As I have been reading posts from both sides of the debate, it seems that the research literature does not provide a definitive answer about whether differences in cables exist that can affect sound quality. Given the lack of research evidence, it is difficult for me to understand how people can make such strong definitive statements for either side of the debate since most of us seem to be relying on our own anecdotal evidence. The focus of the debate often seems to be on the internal validity of the listening sessions, i.e., was a DBT performed or not performed, which is an important aspect of a well designed experiment.
It also seems important to consider the external validity of the listening sessions, which does not seem to be discussed that often in the cable debate. The externality validity of the listening sessions seems to be especially important given that there are so many variables that can affect sound quality besides the cables and bias. These variables vary from system to system and include the quality of the speakers, cd players, amps, pre amps, quality of the cd recording, and room acoustics. Just because I can or can not hear a difference in cables in my system may not necessarily predict whether someone else will hear or will not hear a difference in cables in their system because we could have very different systems. Since we are generally relying on anecdotal evidence, the strongest statement that it seems we can make is that cables may make a difference in some system and not in other systems and this can be due to actual cable differences, poor internal validity (no DBT, bias), or poor external validity.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cam
Usually you would not admit that length, guage or construction would give any audiable difference yet now you question it.
Nobody ever said "wire is wire and it all sounds the same". That's a sound byte manufactured by those that disagree with a basic premise which stattes that wire/cable of similar gauge length and construction are so similar in sound qualities that it causes thus discussion in the first place.
There can easily be differences between different lengths and construction of wires/cable that can affect sound. i.e... 50 feet of 24 gauge speaker cable will most likely sound different thant 10 feet of 12 gauge cable.
If one is comparing apples to oranges, then the results should be questioned.
Actually, my money is on acceptable production variances between the two units.
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Proof
The problem with this argument (as stated above) is that there is not complete evidence for either claim.
When someone did an a/b/x exactly what source(s) were used, and exactly what recording, and what speakers? Any one of those items can cause variances on other systems -or- provide an irrelevent signal -or- lack the ability to discern differences.
Cables made form different companies are going to measure differences. Even small differences can manifest themselves audibly. No matter what I use, it it always well insulated, constructed and .2 ohms or less. Anything more and you might get audible impedence problems.
Some high end gear is finicky and will react badly to certain cables. Models of Threshold stasis amps would go into HF oscillations with some cables.
I am convinced, beyond any shadow of a doubt cables can and do make a difference. I completely dismiss any, and all evidence to the contrary. None of it is complete or conclusive.
While this thread goes on, throughout the end of time, I can and have heard differences because my system has exceptional components, I have excellent hearing, and don't need anyone to tell me what is/is not audible based on some testing I wasn't part of.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sealed
While this thread goes on, throughout the end of time...
The thread can't go on throughout the end of time. There is a finitie number of hard drive / database space on the server, and I'm sure the message board software could only handle a billion or so replys to the thread. Even if the message board software could handle 1 billion+ threads, your bandwidth (cable modem, DSL, T1, dialup,etc.) would not be able to handle bringing them all back.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROJ
Just because I can or can not hear a difference in cables in my system may not necessarily predict whether someone else will hear or will not hear a difference in cables in their system
True, but should I still spend money on the cables if I can't hear a difference ?
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Rhetoric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikki
The thread can't go on throughout the end of time. There is a finitie number of hard drive / database space on the server, and I'm sure the message board software could only handle a billion or so replys to the thread. Even if the message board software could handle 1 billion+ threads, your bandwidth (cable modem, DSL, T1, dialup,etc.) would not be able to handle bringing them all back.
You are just saying that to cheer me up... but this topic will inhale more bandwidth and drive space and probably continue until there is no more space left.
OTOH, maybe you should brush up on terms such as irony, fecetious, rhetoric and the like. Understanding such concepts will eliminate the need for your pedantic explanations of the obvious.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikki
True, but should I still spend money on the cables if I can't hear a difference ?
HOLY COW!
Who ever suggested that you should?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrycraft
You never heard of CD with the same title having different EQ applied to it? It happens and one doesn't know when in th epressing a new one is introduced. No, I don't have titles for you. People in the know know.
"People in the know know." In the face of such difinitive authority, who am I to question?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sealed
OTOH, maybe you should brush up on terms such as irony, fecetious, rhetoric and the like. Understanding such concepts will eliminate the need for your pedantic explanations of the obvious.
I'll brush up on those terms if you look up "sarcasim". You'll find it under s :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pctower
HOLY COW!
Correction, it should read HOLY COW! BATMAN!!
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bturk
Unlike so many others here, you actually performed a test. That’s a great start. I wish others would do the same.
Several things that you did well:
From your description it sounds like you did a single-blind test. There were several posts criticizing you because it wasn’t a double-blind test. This is not a real problem (see more below).
Two of your listeners did not own hifi systems and none of them fit your idea of being audiophiles. Good. Usually yeasayers criticize a listening test unless it is done with experienced audiophiles or even other yeasayers. I say, test all kinds of listeners and see if there is any difference due their prior experience. Certainly the boom box owners may lack any prior exposure to the issue of whether cables make a difference, but maybe not.
It doesn’t really matter whether your test is single- or double-blind as long as you do several control tests to account for or minimize the possibility of bias. For example, did you tell your four listeners in advance the real reason why you were doing the test - to test for audible differences in interconnects? Or did you disguise your intent? From your previous posts on this forum you have made your beliefs about cables very clear. Your friends may have been playing along with you, intentionally or subconsciously. Try eliminate that possibility.
Could your listeners tell which CD player/interconnect combination they were hearing when you switched your preamp back and forth? If so, find a way to hide that information from them. One way to control for bias in a single-blind test is to use several different testers, just like the way gambling casinos keep switching blackjack dealers. If the results do not vary with the different testers, then you will have more confidence that your methods did not introduce unintended bias. Did you test yourself while one of your other listeners performed the switches?
Several things you did not do, but could easily do:
Do a negative control test. Use the same set up but with two identical interconnects. What do your listeners hear? Do they always report them as identical? If they don’t, you should subtract the frequency of false positive reports from the frequency of positive test results. In your test you said 4 out of 4 listeners reported hearing a difference. If 2 out of 4 also report hearing differences in the negative control test, then your corrected results would be 2 out of 4 could hear a difference.
Check the two CD players to see if their output levels are indeed identical. Many listening tests have confirmed that listeners prefer the louder of two sound sources. Small differences in dB may cause this. Check the voltage output from the CD players. Find a way to adjust them to identical voltages. If this is not possible you can also repeat the test after switching the interconnects from one CD player to the other. Do the differences that your listeners report vary with the interconnect cables or the CD players?
Similarly, the possibility exists that the two CDs were not identical. It may be hard to directly measure any possible differences, but you don’t have to - just switch CDs from one player to another and test again.
If you take these kinds of extra efforts, you can attach broader conclusion to your results, and you may actually convince some of the skeptics here (myself included) that you are on to something. You may also find that it is much harder to keep your listeners consistently attentive during all these tedious tests. When I tried doing similar tests, most people reacted by saying this is like listening to paint dry!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikki
sorry, but what does DBT stand for ?
As you already know from the other posts, DBT or double-blind testing reduces the possibility of bias being introduced by researchers who conduct the test. Triple-blind testing goes even farther and reduces the possibility of bias by those who tabulate and analyze the data from the test. I am not aware any triple-blind test on cables. Because of the possibility of bias and other issues affecting the validity of blinded testing, I do not agree with others on this Forum who say the DBT is the gold standard of cable testing.
You also should know that blinded terminlogy is not precise and can be ambiguous. An article titled "Physician Interpretations and Textbook Definitions of Blinding Terminology in Randomized Controlled Trials" in the April 18, 2001 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) discusses this problem, and goes so far as to recommend that terms such as double-blinded be abandoned and replaced with descriptions of who was blinded for the purpose of the test. An excerpt from the JAMA article is shown below:
"Our study has demonstrated enormous ambiguity in the conventional ways of describing blinding. Our results suggest that authors and journal editors should abandon the terms single, double, and triple blind, and substitute descriptions stating which of the relevant groups were unaware of allocation. This change in reporting would be consistent with the Consolidated Standards of Reporting Trials (CONSORT) statement, which calls for reporting of the blinding status of the specific groups involved in RCTs.39 As long as journal reports of RCTs include the term "double blind," clinicians will risk inaccurate inferences about the validity of the studies on which they base their clinical practice."
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Interesting thread
When blind tests are performed and there is a null outcome, yeasayers blame either the equipment or the test. When blind tests are performed and there is a positive outcome, naysayers blame either the equipment or the test.
Do cables make a difference? That's up to the individual to decide. It's bias either way - the bias of believing science has explained everything about cable sonics or the bias that comes with sighted listening. Those who believe the former will never believe the latter and vice versa. Find the camp that makes you comfortable and go with it.
Phil Tower has the right idea. He makes no bones about not using the scientific method but simply chooses what cables or components give him a subjectively improved experience. Mtrycrafts has the right idea. He follows the scientific method and derives his enjoyment from cables and components that measure well.
If you must perform blind tests to confirm or deny your beliefs, go right ahead. But they are a waste of time in my opinion if your intent is to convince anyone but yourself. And years later, you might find that they perhaps shouldn't have convinced YOU, either!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swerd
bturk
Unlike so many others here, you actually performed a test. That’s a great start. I wish others would do the same.
Several things that you did well:
From your description it sounds like you did a single-blind test. There were several posts criticizing you because it wasn’t a double-blind test. This is not a real problem (see more below).
Two of your listeners did not own hifi systems and none of them fit your idea of being audiophiles. Good. Usually yeasayers criticize a listening test unless it is done with experienced audiophiles or even other yeasayers. I say, test all kinds of listeners and see if there is any difference due their prior experience. Certainly the boom box owners may lack any prior exposure to the issue of whether cables make a difference, but maybe not.
It doesn’t really matter whether your test is single- or double-blind as long as you do several control tests to account for or minimize the possibility of bias. For example, did you tell your four listeners in advance the real reason why you were doing the test - to test for audible differences in interconnects? Or did you disguise your intent? From your previous posts on this forum you have made your beliefs about cables very clear. Your friends may have been playing along with you, intentionally or subconsciously. Try eliminate that possibility.
Could your listeners tell which CD player/interconnect combination they were hearing when you switched your preamp back and forth? If so, find a way to hide that information from them. One way to control for bias in a single-blind test is to use several different testers, just like the way gambling casinos keep switching blackjack dealers. If the results do not vary with the different testers, then you will have more confidence that your methods did not introduce unintended bias. Did you test yourself while one of your other listeners performed the switches?
Several things you did not do, but could easily do:
Do a negative control test. Use the same set up but with two identical interconnects. What do your listeners hear? Do they always report them as identical? If they don’t, you should subtract the frequency of false positive reports from the frequency of positive test results. In your test you said 4 out of 4 listeners reported hearing a difference. If 2 out of 4 also report hearing differences in the negative control test, then your corrected results would be 2 out of 4 could hear a difference.
Check the two CD players to see if their output levels are indeed identical. Many listening tests have confirmed that listeners prefer the louder of two sound sources. Small differences in dB may cause this. Check the voltage output from the CD players. Find a way to adjust them to identical voltages. If this is not possible you can also repeat the test after switching the interconnects from one CD player to the other. Do the differences that your listeners report vary with the interconnect cables or the CD players?
Similarly, the possibility exists that the two CDs were not identical. It may be hard to directly measure any possible differences, but you don’t have to - just switch CDs from one player to another and test again.
If you take these kinds of extra efforts, you can attach broader conclusion to your results, and you may actually convince some of the skeptics here (myself included) that you are on to something. You may also find that it is much harder to keep your listeners consistently attentive during all these tedious tests. When I tried doing similar tests, most people reacted by saying this is like listening to paint dry!
Good post! You make some very useful suggestions. Only the one on the negative control test gives me pause, but I don't have any comments on it right now. I can relate to the "like listening to paint dry" reaction of listeners. Boredom or impatience could bias testing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikki
True, but should I still spend money on the cables if I can't hear a difference ?
Nope. In the absence of definitive proof, I think the choice to spend or not spend money on nicer cables is system dependent. I don't doubt those that don't hear differences or those that do hear differences. The only thing I doubt is our ability to definitively tell someone else if cables will make a difference in their system.
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I just wish I could make the kind of money that Mel has made off the Passion!
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