Ways to Biwire???

[E-Stat]

Of the gentlemen you mentioned, we know one does speakers, another electronics, any of them in the wire business?...just curious.

I have not met Joe Skubinski of JPS Labs.

You install a shielded, IEC-configured replacement or some variation thereof. Thus, you have attenuated said radiated hash, but you haven't drained it off, you have simply reduced the range of the proximity effect.

Sure you have. That is what the drain wire of the shield does! Some AC cabling also has RC networks wired to them as well.

...at that point it's free to run amuck, this "distorted version" is still there, dancing around in your electrical service, the common link to all your gear.

This really shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.

1. All audio components need to be shielded from the nasties in the AC.
2. My toaster doesn't care.

rw

[GMichael]

1. All audio components need to be shielded from the nasties in the AC.
2. My toaster doesn't care.

rw

Perhaps, or maybe your toaster DOES care, and it is YOU who does not care about the subtle difference it makes in your toast.

Sorry, had to be said.
I'll shut up now.

[E-Stat]

Perhaps, or maybe your toaster DOES care, and it is YOU who does not care about the subtle difference it makes in your toast.

Actually, you have a good point here. Cabling issues only matter to those who care about getting the highest resolution signal from their audio systems in the real world.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...to say that shielding a 10 ft. power cord for only half it's length will eliminate that "very distorted version of the signal" along it's enitre length? Or that connecting a 10 ft. shielded cord to an unshielded extension cord will somehow render the unshielded one less of a potential transmission source?

...Sure you have. That is what the drain wire of the shield does!...

jimHJJ(...hhmmm...and that ain't a ground loop...)

[GMichael]

Actually, you have a good point here.
rw

Who? Me? I made a good point?
Sorry about that. I'll be more carefull from now on.

[E-Stat]

...to say that shielding a 10 ft. power cord for only half it's length will eliminate that "very distorted version of the signal" along it's enitre length?

Where do you come up with these contrived straw man concepts? Who in the world said that? Like your "post conditioned AC" concept?

rw

[musicoverall]

Actually, you have a good point here. Cabling issues only matter to those who care about getting the highest resolution signal from their audio systems in the real world.

rw

Amen to that!

[Resident Loser]

Where do you come up with these contrived straw man concepts? Who in the world said that? Like your "post conditioned AC" concept?

rw

...no straw man...You seem to think that shielding a length of wire eliminates any problem ad infinitum...and beyond...that even though the shielding ends at the connector plugged into the outlet, something magically transforms such a combo into what is in essence some sort of brick-wall filter, segregating it from anything else plugged into the outlet and any other outlet controlled by the breaker, etc...If that were the case, we wouldn't have to worry about light dimmers, or refigerator compressors and other things that go bump in the loop...Hint: there's cr@p that travels through the conductors, that all the shielded power cords won't dissipate or eliminate...

jimHJJ(...hence my half-wrap/extension cord scenario...straw doesn't make a very good shield...)

[E-Stat]

...no straw man...You seem to think that shielding a length of wire eliminates any problem ad infinitum...and beyond...

No, that's not at all what I think. Call me crazy, but I find the approach of asking folks questions more time efficient...than starting with (always) incorrect wild assed guesses as to what they think. On to reality...

The effects of line induced nasties are most certainly cumulative. That's why I wired two clean lines to my listening room. That's why I don't use dimmers. That's why I use power conditioning. That's why I use shielded cables everywhere. Is that a complete solution? Probably not. The approach of sticking ones head in the sand and choosing not to attack the issue at any turn, however, doesn't sound like a solution to me.

BTW, for how many years have you been beating your wife?

rw

[Resident Loser]

No, that's not at all what I think. Call me crazy, but I find the approach of asking folks questions more time efficient...than starting with (always) incorrect wild assed guesses as to what they think. On to reality...

...that you and folks like you usually extol the virtues of of biwiring or aftermarket power cords as if they are some sort of panacea, which they are clearly not...with sarcastic and meaningless responses like >>>"...the shielded power cord is the line conditioner..."<<<...and yes I could search the archives for chapter and verse of that bit of wisdom, but I'm just too d@mn busy flogging the wife don't ya know...Unfortunately the noobs who read those bits and pieces of this shallow advice buy into the myth of the simple fix and wait for the epiphany of the accompanying miracle...

>>>such quotes are the source of my "wild @$$ed guesses"<<<

...That's why I use power conditioning...

WHOA!...I thought you said power conditioners coupled with amps in particular are a no-no, that you don't use them and that, to paraphrase: shielded power cord's are the line conditioner...Which is it? Keep in mind, some of us are taking notes...

...That's why I use shielded cables everywhere....

Which are useful to ameliorate some proximity effects, just not line-borne ones...see the above paragraph if further explanation seems to be required...

...The approach of sticking ones head in the sand and choosing not to attack the issue at any turn, however, doesn't sound like a solution to me...

Actually, seems like I'm attacking the issue at every turn...In fact I'm looking for some cohesive answer which seems, unfortunately, to be less and less forthcoming...

jimHJJ(...wonder why that might be?...)

[Rich-n-Texas]

This thread is soooo educational on soooo many levels.

E-Stat's getting ready to reply...

[E-Stat]

...that you and folks like you usually extol the virtues of of biwiring or aftermarket power cords as if they are some sort of panacea...

You haven't let me down. I knew that this post would include at least one more completely groundless and unsubstantiated claim. Cite the source of my comments that lead to your perception.

which they are clearly not...with sarcastic and meaningless responses like >>>"...the shielded power cord is the line conditioner..."<<<

Refer to this post to answer your question once again.

Unfortunately the noobs who read those bits and pieces of this shallow advice buy into the myth of the simple fix and wait for the epiphany of the accompanying miracle.

So - your advice is don't do anything at all that could benefit your system. Here's an example of mine.

WHOA!...I thought you said power conditioners coupled with amps in particular are a no-no, that you don't use them and that, to paraphrase: shielded power cord's are the line conditioner...Which is it? Keep in mind, some of us are taking notes...

Is that a promise? I really wish you were taking notes so I didn't have to constantly remind you of what I have actually said. I stated my opinion in the previously cited post and here's another. This is really getting tedious.

Actually, seems like I'm attacking the issue at every turn...In fact I'm looking for some cohesive answer which seems, unfortunately, to be less and less forthcoming.

I'm not at all surprised given your demonstrated level of retention.

...wonder why that might be?...)

Dunno. Selective memory on your part?

rw

[Resident Loser]

...of the citations you say the power cord is the conditioner and in the remaining one you suggest using a power conditioner...Do you mean a real line conditioner this time?

Source of my perceptions? I'd say it's your overall body of work...

You may want to be a bit more precise in your nomenclature...a shielded power cord is just that: cordage which is shielded...well, except in your case, of course, where you have used some Belden fire-alarm wire (again, a wire designed to be physically installed and surface-mounted) with a couple of Seymour and Pass (?) connectors...Neither really a conditioner, at least in my definition of such...It really doesn't "condition" anything AC-wise, simply deals with radiated energy from adjacent unshielded cables...

As opposed to a filter arrangement that deals with line-borne RFI usually in the 100kHZ- 100mHz range...as opposed to an actual, stand-alone line conditioning/UPS device...

And again, I'm sure that the majority of readers with their Yamaha HT receivers and Klipsch speakers will reap great benefit from any "esoteric" wiring of any sort...

jimHJJ(...yup, real positive 'bout that...)

[E-Stat]

...of the citations you say the power cord is the conditioner and in the remaining one you suggest using a power conditioner...Do you mean a real line conditioner this time?

As previously stated, I use both. Some of the cords use RC networks which qualify them as conditioners. (hint: the DIY 83803 flavor does not)

Source of my perceptions? I'd say it's your overall body of work.

You continue to misjudge me based on something other than what I've actually said.

Neither really a conditioner, at least in my definition of such...It really doesn't "condition" anything AC-wise, simply deals with radiated energy from adjacent unshielded cables.

I honestly wonder why you repeatedly choose to argue with the wall. I say concept A. You fabricate concept B:

"...to say that shielding a 10 ft. power cord for only half it's length..."
"You seem to think that shielding a length of wire eliminates any problem ad infinitum."
"...you and folks like you usually extol the virtues of of biwiring or aftermarket power cords as if they are some sort of panacea"

and then proceed to argue against...your own imagination. Strange.

rw

[StevenSurprenant]

From my own experience...

Bi-Wiring did not have much of an effect, but then I didn't try everything.

What did seem to make an improvement is to replace the brass jumper between the woofer and tweeter with wire. I used copper and also DH Labs Q10 wires of which the Q10 made the greatest improvement.

I even went to two similar amps which sounded the same as a single amp. This was with B&W 601's.

I also tried different single wires on the B&W's and the Quads. Each wire had it's own sound, but for the quads, the Nordost seemed to work best. For the B&W's, CAT 5 seemed to work fine.

That was years ago...

Lately, I went to using a Behringer DCX digital crossover powering Newform tweeters and SEAS mid woofers through a Panasonic XR25.

Now that was sweet!

Of course, everything is bi-wired and bi-amped.

Wanting to go passive on these homebrews, I began trying different capacitors on the tweeter.

With the stock cap that came with the tweeters, the soundstage all but disappeared. I then tried Audio Cap Theta and they sounded much like the active crossover, but then I went to Mundorf Silver Oil and the results were amazing. I'm still getting goose bumps. I am still running active on the mid woofer.

The moral of the story is...

1) Replace the jumper with wire. Try different types including silver.
2) Replace the stock caps in your crossover with different ones. Note: Do not modify your crossover, but instead use the same values that B&K used. This will void any warranty you have on your speakers.

This, I believe will give you the most bang for your buck.

There is also one more thing that I didn't mention. You could bi-amp/wire using different types of amps on your woofer and tweeter. This is expensive and if you do this, you might as well go active.


You may have noticed that on this forum, every time wire is mentioned, a feeding frenzy starts up. Don't let that dissuade you. Try bypassing the jumpers between your woofer and tweeter and if you find that it makes an improvement, then proceed. If you don't hear anything different then you've only lost out on a few cents.

As for bi-wiring using the methods you suggested, I've tried both with minimal or no improvement.

Enjoy