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  1. #1
    Forum Regular budgetaudio76's Avatar
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    solid core vs stranded

    wow what a world of difference using single stranded wire for the powered sub makes. i thought it sounded good before with the stranded wire but when changed to the solid conductor the bass was much tighter than before and i swear it was more transparent what boominess there was gone, blending in with the mains much smoother. if your wondering what im using (this will make some of you cringe) im using 12g electrical wiring. alot of work to connect them but worth it cost me 15dollars for 50 foot spool. subs are much louder after switching. thinking of changing wires in b.r. system as well.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    To my ears in my system solid core is the only way to go. The sound is more focused. At first stranded cables can seem like they give greater soundstage but it is almost like there is ghosting of the sonic images. I also use solid core interconnects. Glad you are enjoying the improvements and keep us posted on future changes.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  3. #3
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Solid core vs. stranded? what's the difference? how do you know which is which?
    AA

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Solid core vs. stranded? what's the difference? how do you know which is which?
    AA


    A stranded cable is one which is made up of many thin strands of wire in close contact with each other. Solid core cables contain one or more thicker strands of wire that are insulated from each other. An example of solid core speaker cables would be the Alpha Core MI 1 which is a single ribbon of wire for each polarity. My current speaker cables the Audioquest Slates contain 8 conductors not in contact with each other electrically. Four for neagative and four for the positive.

    Examples of stranded cables would be Monster, Cardas, Kimber amd MIT among others. To find out if your cables are solid or stranded try to look where they are terminated and if you see many small wires your cables are stranded and if one or a few larger solid wires individually insulated your cables would be considered solid core.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  5. #5
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm guessing mine are stranded then. Is there any reason why one is better than the other?

  6. #6
    Forum Regular budgetaudio76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Okay, I'm guessing mine are stranded then. Is there any reason why one is better than the other?

    its hard too say since i dont know much about it...maybe its because the signal isnt fragmented between all the strands (solid core). fragmenting at the source and rejoining at the destination. electrical cross over between strands? my first foray into solid and stranded ic i made some ics out of my dads sat. dish wires one was stranded and the other was solid seven core wire. i was a teen then. solid cable was much tighter more slam in the lower octaves. stranded had fuller bass in the upper regions. dad wasnt too happy that i used up all his cable as one of his friends was needing some for his sat. dish. but they had a laugh about it. i used the same stuff for speaker wire.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Okay, I'm guessing mine are stranded then. Is there any reason why one is better than the other?
    For deeper understanding, you'd probably have to Google it for some scienetists write up.
    Some ppl like their music crystal clear and bright. Others like their music soft, mellow, and layback. So, "better" for me may not be better for others. Audio cables may deliver sound differently (multiple tests by me) but they are more profitable when suited in higher end gear.
    Cables are fun and easy to play with. They are the cheappest investment, a useful tool to taylor my liking, and should be the final step of the upgrade.
    I love to play around with cablings but knowing a huge and beautiful shinny muffler tip won't make a car goes faster.

    * Learn more about it here :http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf
    Last edited by gjpham; 04-10-2008 at 10:09 AM.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Audio Amateur one theroy I have read is the strands of cables attract and repulse each other with the changes in electrical flow. One company calls it galvanic strand interaction. The interesting thing about cables is it seems not everyone is sensitive to changes in cables. If you are happy with your system as it is I would not change anything. I have found that if when I use solid core I still try to choose a cable with a guage in the 12 to 14 range. I have a cable composed of three 20 guage wires and I find it a little bass shy. You could have that cable to experimant with if you would like.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  9. #9
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Thanks for the answers. I'll have to read up a little on it then, but I'm not about to change mine, I've spent enough on them as it is
    Great link BTW.
    JM, is that an offer? if it is thanks, but you don't need to bother, I'll find myself some solid core some time

  10. #10
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Audio Amateur one theroy I have read is the strands of cables attract and repulse each other with the changes in electrical flow. One company calls it galvanic strand interaction.
    The strands each will be carrying very nearly the identical current, therefore, this is a bogus theory. If the effect even exists, it would be microscopic at best. And it ISN'T galvanic.

    The interesting thing about cables is it seems not everyone is sensitive to changes in cables.
    Probably because they aren't psychologically pre-disposed to it.

    -Bruce

  11. #11
    Meh. Brett A's Avatar
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    Quote JohnMichael
    "The interesting thing about cables is it seems not everyone is sensitive to changes in cables."

    Quote FLZapped
    Probably because they aren't psychologically pre-disposed to it.
    -Bruce
    Or they are psychologically pre-disposed to thinking its BS and cannot hear it for that reason. Therein lies the essence of the debate---the nature of the rift.
    Amp Shanling A3000-> speakers Vienna Acoustic Mozart Grand CD Rotel RCD 991 AE TT: Well Tempered Record Player-> AT OC9MLII -> Jolida JD9. cables from AQ, Siltech, Bogdan, Signal DH Labs, etc...
    Some pictures of it all

  12. #12
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    I'd put it the other way

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett A
    Or they are psychologically pre-disposed to thinking its BS and cannot hear it for that reason.
    It's usually the opposite, and thus people imagine things they're not hearing. Same for bi-wire

  13. #13
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Smile

    I've had my first experience with solid core wire and I am impressed.

    I was using 14 gauge zip cord in my surround system.

    I had a roll of 14 gauge solid core wire I bought from Menards lying around so I thought I'd give at a try. I first hooked up my MMGC center channel and my first impression was that clarity went up a little.

    I then wound two wires together and hooked them up to my magnepan MC1's. I wound them because I understood that it lowers inductance and increases the highs. When running the MC1's full range without the sub, the first thing I noticed was that the bass was cleaner. I never liked the bass from the MC1's. The MC1's only go down to 80hz and the bass that was there always seemed to sound muddy. Anyway, it was an improvement. The next thing I noticed was that the highs were too bright, so I adjusted the EQ's to flat and it sounds very nice.

    When watching movies, I noticed better clarity and soundstaging. Definitely an improvement! The images are also more defined (less smeared).

    With music the improvement is even more noticeable.

    To make a long story short, I'm keeping the solid core in the system.

    I have tried a number of good wires from different companies and all of them have a different sonic characteristic. My favorite to date was DH Labs and when I finish putting my main 2 channel system back together I'll be comparing them against solid core. My main system is much more resolving than my Maggie surround system and and I am eager to see if solid core performs the same magic or puts it over the top.

    In the mean time I'm going to try them in my girlfriend's B&W system.

    My recommendation is that people should try solid core before spending big bucks on name brand wire.

  14. #14
    Linear Guy
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    solid, link

    I went with Anti-Cables about a year and a half ago. It is a solid core and roughly 14 ga. I have not had the urge to upgrade since. Just my experience though. Maybe I just got tired of experimenting. I think I found that different cables were changing the tone a bit but the detail improvement I was looking for was a matter of improving the source and not the cable. Glad to see lots of folks on this forum use relatively inexpensive cables. What about enameled solid copper wire? has anyone messed around with something like that? Sounds like a good inexpensive experiment for the bedroom system.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant
    I've had my first experience with solid core wire and I am impressed....
    My recommendation is that people should try solid core before spending big bucks on name brand wire.
    Alright, I wish we live in the same town so we could experiment them. I work in electronics industry so at work, I have full of equipments to use for my experiment. It is really fun and full surprises. Lucky for me is that I also have sources that I can use their expensive cables ($1K- $15K a pair) to compare with. I have never tried/ seen the solid but will def give it a try....soon I finish with my 1 of current project.
    I agree with the last post, each materials deliver each unique sound. But people that can afford expensive cables usually don't spend the time to do this experiements.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular budgetaudio76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    The strands each will be carrying very nearly the identical current, therefore, this is a bogus theory. If the effect even exists, it would be microscopic at best. And it ISN'T galvanic.



    Probably because they aren't psychologically pre-disposed to it.

    -Bruce

    this is a good hobby (audio) isnt it. you didnt specify whether you tried solid core wires before. but if youve never tried it wouldnt it be worth the experiment to see if it is all hoopla? you know you can get 12 or 14 guage wire pretty cheap from a hard ware store. should be no more than 15, maybe 20 dollars for a 50foot spool . twist them together. looks cleaner. after if youdo notice any difference, perhaps you can buy name brand cableat a premium. im not saying you will notice anything ...its up to your ears. but if you dont want to try it hey its your perogotive. no harm done. personnaly i did notice a difference in the bass being tighter than when using stranded. for predisposition...when i was a teen i did a a/b test on different ic cable with my friends and changing between them they noticed nothing different...i was pretty sure they would because i thoughtthere was a difference between them. their answer surprised me. so now im reluctant to spend a premium on a brand name.

  17. #17
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    FLZapped

    I realize that you're of the wire doesn't make much difference crowd and that's okay. I too was of that frame of mind until about twenty years ago a store offered me a pair of Audioquest Crystal cables to try. I heard a big difference. I didn't like it, but it convinced me that wire does make a difference.

    I've heard systems where wire didn't affect the sound too. Most systems I've tried different wires in resulted in very audible changes.

    The changes I hear are...

    1) an increase or decrease of treble, tighter or looser bass

    2) an increase or decrease of transparency.

    3)some wire sounds dull like all the harmonics (micro dynamics) are missing

    4)some I hear changes in how the images become more solid and defined (leading/trailing edges of signal are sharper)

    5) smearing

    I believe that most changes I hear have less to do with tonal changes and more to do with loss or gain of micro details and sharper edges of the signals.

    If I had to use this list to describe the changes that solid core made over stranded zip cord, I would attribute the greatest change to number 4 and 5. This had an effect on the transparency.

    I will not even attempt to theorize as to what causes these differences, but they are real. It's rare that I find someone who can't hear the differences. What's interesting is that everyone I've done this with hears the "same differences".

    The only two systems that I didn't hear a difference with seemed to be lacking in midrange transparency. The cost of the system had less to do with it. Heck, I even tried cat5 wire on a shelve system of my moms and she could hear the difference and she was hard of hearing.

    You can read all the reports and DBT's of the anti-wire crowd and convince yourself that wire doesn't matter and it will change nothing. There's just too many of us who hear the changes and nothing can change our minds. As for you not hearing these changes, I suspect your gear, your hearing, or your reluctance to try different wire. I mean this in a nice way.

    We probably agree on one thing...

    Many cable manufacturers are ripping us off. A few months ago, I saw a pair of wires that they were asking $34,000 for. I paid half of that for my car! there is absolutely no justification for that cost.

    The same is true for speakers. I've seen crap speakers with about $50 worth of parts (if that) selling for $500. The last speakers I auditioned in a store had about (I'm guessing) $500 worth of parts and they were asking $6,000 for them. I use the same woofers albeit larger in my home system and they cost about $175 apiece.

    People can charge whatever they want for their wares, that's their perogative and right, but if we are going to complain about the costs of wire we should also do the same for everything else.

    Well anyway, I hope you try solid core and see for yourself. You may not agree with me, but it doesn't cost much to find out.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant
    FLZapped

    I realize that you're of the wire doesn't make much difference crowd and that's okay. I too was of that frame of mind until about twenty years ago a store offered me a pair of Audioquest Crystal cables to try. I heard a big difference. I didn't like it, but it convinced me that wire does make a difference.
    No, only what can be proven.

    The changes I hear are...

    1) an increase or decrease of treble, tighter or looser bass
    You can get an increase in treble frequencies if the original wire was very long and too small in guage and then switch to a much larger guage, yes. But, for the other, have measurements of impulse response to back this up? What was the guage differences between the original and "improved" wire??

    2) an increase or decrease of transparency.
    Okay, but what is transparency, really? A state of mind? Interesting that you'd use an optical term for audio.....

    3)some wire sounds dull like all the harmonics (micro dynamics) are missing
    Spectral measurements to back this up?? Micro dynamics? Hmmm......I don't think so. Dynamics are something controlled by the musician. Are you refering to the tonal changes from the initial attack of a note to its steady-state condition?

    4)some I hear changes in how the images become more solid and defined (leading/trailing edges of signal are sharper)

    5) smearing
    Back to impulse response.....

    I believe
    Ah, okay, this is a belief system.


    I will not even attempt to theorize as to what causes these differences, but they are real. It's rare that I find someone who can't hear the differences. What's interesting is that everyone I've done this with hears the "same differences".
    As a belief system would do.

    You can read all the reports and DBT's of the anti-wire crowd and convince yourself that wire doesn't matter and it will change nothing.
    This is physics we're atlking about here....really old, well undestood physics.....so it would follow that things aren't going to change here, unlike a belief system.

    So if you believe you've heard a difference, you have, there is no argument for that, but you'll never be able to prove it - just as you get different results from different people from the same apparent set-up.

    BTW - if you've ever done any serious room analysis, a lot of what you're claiming might be a by-product of the room response - which changes depending on where you are in a room, which would also explain why some people don't hear the same thing you did.

    -Bruce

    PS - Some speakers are especially difficult to drive, because they have wildly varying impedances. I believe you have a set.....which might explain the differences you apparently hear. You also gretly increased your wire guage, which does have the effect you described and in the case of your particular speakers, might make an audible difference. This does not hold for the vast majority of avaiable speakers, however.

  19. #19
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    No, only what can be proven.

    ...this is a belief system.


    This is physics we're atlking about here....really old, well undestood physics.....so it would follow that things aren't going to change here, unlike a belief system.

    So if you believe you've heard a difference, you have, there is no argument for that, but you'll never be able to prove it

    BTW - if you've ever done any serious room analysis, a lot of what you're claiming might be a by-product of the room response - which changes depending on where you are in a room, which would also explain why some people don't hear the same thing you did.

    -Bruce

    PS - Some speakers are especially difficult to drive, because they have wildly varying impedances. I believe you have a set.....
    I agree that I cannot prove it except for what I hear and what everyone else hears. I cannot measue it. Dang, I hate saying that!

    Physics, there's that P word again. It's been around for a long time, maybe as long as the universe? All I can say is that I hear changes and others hear the "same changes" that I do, but we cannot measue it, "YET"! Perhaps we aren't measuring the correct thing or in the correct way. Maybe, just maybe, there's some quantum thingy going on. What daya think?

    I've tried wires on many systems, not all, but many and I could always hear differences. The only two exceptions were with a lower price paradigm speaker and a polk speaker. The only thing they had in common was that their midrange was very murky. As for my speakers, I have, at the moment, Magnepan, B&W, System Audio, and my home brew which consists of Newform tweeters and SEAS woofers. I have also had Quads ESL's and several others. I could hear wire differences on all of them. There were a few speakers that came before wire was an issue so I can't comment on them.

    Again, you are correct that where you are in the room makes a difference, but so far eveyone has "heard the same things" I have. Figure that one out...

    As you already suspect, we cannot agree, but, Hey!, that doesn't stop us from having fun.

    You have a great day!

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant
    Perhaps we aren't measuring the correct thing or in the correct way.
    I've yet to see a single test involving cables as a system with real world amplifiers driving real world speaker loads. They either test the cables by themselves (useless) or only test one kind of cheap zip vs another cheap zip (Roger Russell's comic book) and proclaim the results encompass everything else outside of those narrow confines.

    There was a guy here a while back named mtrycraft who always produced a laundry list of DBTs to refute the question. I quickly pointed out the narrow scope of such *tests* and that extrapolation of results to the rest of the cable universe was decidedly non-scientific. So no differences can be heard by listeners of unknown ability listening to content of unknown familiarity on systems of unknown capability using 18 gauge zip vs 12 gauge zip. Ok. That's conclusive results for what?

    As for this topic of solid vs. stranded, there are different, but equal paths to simultaneously achieving the goal of ultra low capacitance and inductance (lowest dielectric coefficient). The configuration of my JPS Labs cable is very different from that of Nordost Valhalla, but both deliver similar characteristics.

    rw

  21. #21
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I've yet to see a single test involving cables as a system with real world amplifiers driving real world speaker loads. They either test the cables by themselves (useless) or only test one kind of cheap zip vs another cheap zip (Roger Russell's comic book) and proclaim the results encompass everything else outside of those narrow confines.

    There was a guy here a while back named mtrycraft who always produced a laundry list of DBTs to refute the question. I quickly pointed out the narrow scope of such *tests* and that extrapolation of results to the rest of the cable universe was decidedly non-scientific. So no differences can be heard by listeners of unknown ability listening to content of unknown familiarity on systems of unknown capability using 18 gauge zip vs 12 gauge zip. Ok. That's conclusive results for what?

    rw
    Took the words right out of my mouth!

    By the way, mtrycraft is alive and well at Audioholics. I think he found himself a home. Many there belong to the wire is wire crowd. I'm happy for him,

  22. #22
    Forum Regular budgetaudio76's Avatar
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    thank you all

    who has posted in this topic. any and all topics are much appreciated. Both positive and negative. or is there such a thing as negative perhaps it has to do with ones perspective. from those of you who have experimented, and those that havent. both answers all add up to good reading. didnt think the thread would have an argumentative tone to it but thats ok. as long as no one gets beat up phiscally(sorry got to catch up on my spelling). and no one gets murdered....plz?! i view this listening to music as a hobby and will experiment with anything i could think to do with my speakers. fill them with poly fill, try and get it right so i dont dampen the midrange. happened once stuffed to little mid woofer cabs (sp- 155w they were $50 each)with more polyfill then they needed which dampened the bass but only too much. wasnt so muddy anymore but output was way down along with the midrange. which i didnt like so i removed it. a few weeks later after thinking about it much, i sprayed the inside of the cabinets with auto underbody rubberized spray to the tune of too cans each. regreted it for a while there because they smelled like the gas from the spray for a couple of weeks. finally one day i put poly fill in them and put them over a heater covered with a wool blanket. took care of the brunt of it. usable again. i was so happy.yay?! i got out of audio for about ten years but i started around 17 years ago. got back in in october of last year. sorry so long winded. i dont speak much personally but when i write....

  23. #23
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Its hard to know conclusively about these things. A lot of professionals think we are fooling ourselves, and many of these people are serious kinda folks that know what their talking about. But I have done a right job on myself, because I can hear differences between different interconnects and speaker cables I've tried.

    By the way EStat, I've listened extensively to the Valhallas, the Transparent Opus, and MITs top Oracle models. The Valhallas are superb, but the Opus is better - I find it has everything the Valhalla has and more. Images are more solid and defined - thats what I hear anyway.

  24. #24
    Aging Smartass
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    I can only speak from my own personal (and, limited) experience here, but if I were to compare the performance between the solid core Audioquest "Crystal" speaker cables I once owned, and the Monster Z-Series stranded cables I now use, I'd have to state categorically that the Monster cables are inifinitely superior in every way.

    I was never pleased with the sound of the Audioquest Crystal cables, as they made the sound of my system quite harsh, with little detail, but seemingly, more volume (i.e. - they made my system play louder). The harshness lessened over time as the cables burned in, but never sounded good enough to justify their price ($800 for two 12' lengths).

    I replaced those cables with the Monster Z-Series stranded cables, with screw-on, gold-plated banana plugs (on both ends) and enjoyed an immense improvement immediately: much sweeter, more pleasant sound, with greater detail and deeper bass.

    This is only my own experience with two cables, so it certainly isn't to be used as a standard, but I posted this as a point of reference. I also found the Audioquest cables impossbily stiff, and very hard to work with, whereas the Monster ones are a good deal more flexible, and easier to place on the floor behind my speakers.

    As always, there are often two sides to a story.

  25. #25
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    By the way EStat, I've listened extensively to the Valhallas, the Transparent Opus, and MITs top Oracle models. The Valhallas are superb, but the Opus is better - I find it has everything the Valhalla has and more. Images are more solid and defined - thats what I hear anyway.
    There are a number of competitive cables available. HP is currently using the newest Nordost flavor, the Odin and reports they are likewise better than the Valhalla.

    rw

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