Proof of placebo effect ?

[okiemax]

Why would there be differences between no treatment and a placebo pill in the first place? a placebo pill has nothing in it to start with. In essence it is also a no treatment pill?

I am not sure what you are asserting here?

Perhaps you didn't read the research right or misunderstanding it and drawing the wrong conclusion from it.

A placebo has no real value other than a control in a DBT.
After all, these protocols are only valid for DBt protocol to account for bias, a placebo in effect.
That is what is the case in audio, the need for DBT to account for bias.

Perhaps you need to read some of these:

"Listening Tests, Turning Opinions Into Facts", Toole, F. E., Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol 30, No.6, Jun 1982, pg 431-445.

"Subjective Measurements of Loudspeaker Sound Quality and Listening Preference", Toole, F. E., Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol 33, No 1/2, Jan/Feb 1985, pg 2-32.

"Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listening Preferences", Toole, F. E., Part 1, Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol 34, No.4, Apr 1986, pg 227-235; Part two, JAES Vol 34, No.5, May 1986, pg 323-348.

"Listening Tests-Identifying and Controlling the Variables", Toole, F. E., Proceedings of the 8th International Conference, AES, May 1990.

"Hearing is Believeing vs Believing is Hearing: Blind vs Sighted Listening Tests ond Other Interesting Things", Toole, F. E. and Olive, S. E., 97th AES Convention, Nov 1994, Print #3894.

Mtycraft, you seem to be arguing against the placebo theory instead of for it. Referring to the NEJM study, you said," Why would there be a difference between no treatment and a placebo pill in the first place?" I thought you believed a placebo could be a powerful influence on the mind, so powerful as to make an ill person feel healed or a listener hear things that aren't real.

In the study, if the placebo had power, improvement would have been greater in subjects who received the placebo than in those who recieved no treatment. But the study showed improvement was about the same for the two groups. So if the placebo (or power of suggestion) in a medical setting really isn't so powerful, why not question theories about it in other settings?

I don't have any of the referenced papers by Dr. Floyd Toole so I can't comment on them. My guess is they say something to support your believe that audiophile cables are no better than lamp cord and that people can't trust their ears. If that is the case, I wonder why Dr. Toole's employer (assuming he is still with Harman International) has this to say in the owner's manual for their JBL Tik Series speakers:

"Careful selection of of cables and interconnects can have quite a dramatic impact on the dynamic contrasts experienced by listeners."

If you are interested in the manual, do a Google search on the following term: jbl home support. Then choose the Ti10K from the product list -- it's almost at the bottom.

There also is an interesting interview of Dr. Floyd Toole by Melanie Garrett of of HOME CINEMA online. The following quote is from it: "Floyd is of the opinion that technical measurements are not much use unless they can reliably predict what we as listeners will subjectively experience as good or bad sound quality. In a nutshell, he not only has faith in his own ears, but he is also interested in yours and mine as well ..."

You can get to the interview through Google by entering the following term: home cinema online garrett toole.