Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 131

Thread: Power cords

  1. #51
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...I don't have a problem...certainly none I would pin on RFI and power cords.
    Fair comments, but not necessarily relevant to others who are not as technology averse. I think it is a fair statement that most folks choose to have cell phones, wireless telephones, microwave ovens, digital cable boxes, flat panel TVs with switching power supplies, etc., etc. Heck even the new washer and dryer -- excuse me drying cabinet, has digital controls. I'm certainly not going to unplug all these various devices every time I wish to listen to music.

    I'm convinced there is not a case of mass hysteria. It is a case of differing systems in differing environments with differing levels of performance expectation.

    rw

  2. #52
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373

    yes, to each his own...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Well, let's not go overboard here. He has already stated that. He is basing his opinion based upon the empirical results he has read. Which is why I used the Berra quote. The reality, as with other cables, is that such tests have not been performed using the cables we are discussing at any serious level to provide an answer either way.

    I trust my own testing and that of many other trusted ears. For those who wish to protest loudly to the contrary, have at it. It was this very topic that originally drew me to AR. I remain continually amazed at the effort some folks exert to discuss that which they find or believe to be of no value. Admittedly, some go to extremes with AC conditioning. Harry Pearson uses no fewer than ten rather pricey Nordost Valhalla power cords and two Thor conditioners in his two channel music system. At least that many in the HT/Multichannel.

    To each his own.

    rw
    I certainly agree with that statement. "To each his own", which seems to only work one way around here. One side says "hey, prove that you can tell a difference" while the other side says "I don't have to prove anything, listen for yourself". I am on the side that says "take a listen for yourself", but the other side insists on going through the mathematical aspects and tries to disprove without actually 'listening'.

    I don't have to prove what my ears tell me. I can't tell you the WHY or the HOW, but I can certainly bring people over to listen and decide for themself. Now, I can't just pretend like I don't notice in order to be drawn to the 'other' side. However, I have heard systems and tested out a variety of things in which case I came up with nearly identical results. Therefore what I find to be true is that there is no definites in this hobby. Each system, each cable, each speaker, whatever is going to sound and and perform different. Some people are trying to apply blanket rules and blanket laws to things that are out of their understanding or experience.

    I think it's insane to think that power cables DON'T make a difference and equally I think it's insane to think that they make ALL the difference. The reality here is that it's all going to be dependant on the circumstances of each system and setup. Maybe those who have not experienced a difference have not had the right system and setup to tell a difference and it is not their fault that they are unaware of differences.

    What's upsetting though is that the people who believe in the difference of equipment and things like cables is that we are never attacking those who believe otherwise, it's always the other way around. I am tolerate of their opinions when a newbie asks the hated question "Does a power cord make a difference".

  3. #53
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    Gee whiz...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    What system and equipment were you using? This is what e-stat originally asked you and you still cannot cite any experience in working with a system and power cords.
    ...I saw an answer...E-Stat, did you see one? GM? markw? Gee, I guess you're the only one who didn't...Very short attention span...

    Perhaps, since you lay claim to having had an umbilical epiphany of sorts, you should describe what in particular you heard and under what conditions you heard them...sighted auditions, blind, double blind? Were the dB levels exact? How about the humidity...you know sound travels at different speeds depending on it's level...and that attention span...tsk, tsk...

    jimHJJ(...in any event we're all keen to know...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  4. #54
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    What's upsetting though is that the people who believe in the difference of equipment and things like cables is that we are never attacking those who believe otherwise, it's always the other way around. I am tolerate of their opinions when a newbie asks the hated question "Does a power cord make a difference".
    Well, in the grand scheme of things, none of this should really be upsetting. With a different hobby, there are those who get all excited about the divide in the motorcycle community. I'm not a Harley-Davidson fan. Air cooled 45 degree V twins are bronze age archaic. They all shake. They are not as reliable as water cooled designs. Period. Even my lawn tractor uses an inherently balanced 90 degree V twin. As does the V-4 in my Honda. Having said that, they are quite popular. For reasons that are very different from my buying criteria.

    As for the debate, let each side present its evidence so that others may arrive at their own conclusions. Emotional responses should not be a factor. I will readily agree, however, that buying a $500 power cable is not the first upgrade someone should consider if they are using a typical receiver based system.

    rw

  5. #55
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Were the dB levels exact?
    Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain.

    rw

  6. #56
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...I saw an answer...E-Stat, did you see one? GM? markw? Gee, I guess you're the only one who didn't...Very short attention span...

    Perhaps, since you lay claim to having had an umbilical epiphany of sorts, you should describe what in particular you heard and under what conditions you heard them...sighted auditions, blind, double blind? Were the dB levels exact? How about the humidity...you know sound travels at different speeds depending on it's level...and that attention span...tsk, tsk...

    jimHJJ(...in any event we're all keen to know...)
    Sometimes I put the better gas in my car instead of the cheap stuff. My car runs smoother, better acceleration, etc etc. Some people think it's all the same junk. I don't always spend the extra cents to get the 'good stuff' cause it's all outrageous, but sometimes I splurg. I don't need a double blind test to determine what I am noticing about my car. What you are asking me to do is pretend that the difference isn't there. I'm asking you to take a ride with me and determine for yourself.

  7. #57
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain.

    rw
    I was going to make that same comment, but I didn't want to try and correct someone who is always right.

  8. #58
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    Sometimes I put the better gas in my car instead of the cheap stuff. My car runs smoother, better acceleration, etc etc. Some people think it's all the same junk. I don't always spend the extra cents to get the 'good stuff' cause it's all outrageous, but sometimes I splurg. I don't need a double blind test to determine what I am noticing about my car. What you are asking me to do is pretend that the difference isn't there. I'm asking you to take a ride with me and determine for yourself.
    Where are we going? Should a bring a hat? Will I need a jacket? Are we going up the coast? Oh, I do love a nice ride up the coast. Can we go up the coast?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  9. #59
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373

    Howza bout...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Where are we going? Should a bring a hat? Will I need a jacket? Are we going up the coast? Oh, I do love a nice ride up the coast. Can we go up the coast?
    We take my "Jag-year" (Jaguar for those who don't get this joke) around the bends of Highway 1??? Oh wait...I don't have a "Jag-year". Grrrr.

  10. #60
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    We take my "Jag-year" (Jaguar for those who don't get this joke) around the bends of Highway 1??? Oh wait...I don't have a "Jag-year". Grrrr.
    Tease
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  11. #61
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    However...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Fair comments, but not necessarily relevant to others who are not as technology averse. I think it is a fair statement that most folks choose to have cell phones, wireless telephones, microwave ovens, digital cable boxes, flat panel TVs with switching power supplies, etc., etc. Heck even the new washer and dryer -- excuse me drying cabinet, has digital controls. I'm certainly not going to unplug all these various devices every time I wish to listen to music.

    I'm convinced there is not a case of mass hysteria. It is a case of differing systems in differing environments with differing levels of performance expectation.

    rw
    ...as I recall there is the proximty effect...that the strength and therefore the effect RFI produces, drops off as the distance to its' source increases...I forget if it's linear, inversely proportional or logarithmic but since that is the case, and anything that produces such emissions is governed by FCC guidelines, the digital controls on your dryer, in the laundry room is far enough away from your audio gear to preclude any airborne contamination (unless you think all this wiring has hung you out to dry)...Which leaves us with artifacts in the AC lines...How would better shielding of a AC cord protect from that? It's coming from within, you would need some sort of filter and drain to accomplish anything; foil layers and braided mesh, sandwiched between all the Teflon in the world isn't going to do that.

    jimHJJ(...things are getting convoluted...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  12. #62
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    How would better shielding of a AC cord protect from that? It's coming from within, you would need some sort of filter and drain to accomplish anything; foil layers and braided mesh, sandwiched between all the Teflon in the world isn't going to do that.
    It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...things are getting convoluted.
    I don't see it that way.

    rw

  13. #63
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    In theory yes...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain.

    rw
    ...but in practice perhaps not...after powering down to swap line cords how could you be certain that on re-application of power the amp has reached stasis and is now level matched? Particularly with tubes? Then you run into the problem of time...with any passage of time between samples, how could you be sure of an actual valid and discernable sonic difference?

    jimHJJ(...that's why there are ABX tests...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  14. #64
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373

    didn't ya know...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords.


    I don't see it that way.

    rw
    he likes to put words in your mouth....or in this case....text in your posts.

  15. #65
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    ....but the other side insists on going through the mathematical aspects........

    Math??? What math


    Cheers, John

  16. #66
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron
    Math??? What math


    Cheers, John
    That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  17. #67
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,373

    thanks for filling in...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)
    Thanks Gmichael for explaining...I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the debates I seem to be in at the moment. lol.

  18. #68
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...but in practice perhaps not...after powering down to swap line cords how could you be certain that on re-application of power the amp has reached stasis and is now level matched? Particularly with tubes?
    These are valid concerns since I find that most components do undergo some sonic changes during the first hour of powerup. Which is why I don't find much value in audio-cowboy quick ABX comparisons. Especially those with added cables and boxes assumed to be completely perfect. Which leads to my preference for...

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Then you run into the problem of time...with any passage of time between samples, how could you be sure of an actual valid and discernable sonic difference?
    ...long term evaluations despite the objections voiced. I have been nurtured over a long period of time in an environment where I was constantly hearing new gear. Of all sorts. Many brands which I had never even heard of before. I worked at an audio store and have professional audio reviewer friends. I was taught how and what to listen for by very experienced mentors. Experience in music and extended exposure to high performance audio. I truly believe practice helps. While one's mood, the phase of the moon, the degree of inebriation, circadian cycles all vary, I find that using well known program material in well known systems provides the greatest insight to subtle changes. YMMV.

    One of my greatest joys is hearing something new in a piece of music that I've listened to for decades. Sometimes that comes in big chunks - like a trip in 2003 to hear a reviewer's spectacular system where my point of reference was completely changed. Or, most commonly where the change I detect is merely a nuance.

    rw

  19. #69
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)
    That's not math..

    Magnetic fields for a single conductor fall off as 1/r.

    Magnetic fields for a conductor pair fall off as 1/r2.

    The field of a line cord is such a field. It is a dipole. Do not consider the fields of a line cord as radiated propagation of energy, consider it in terms of the static fields generated.

    A twisted conductor line cord has a helically oriented magnetic field. If you integrate that field over multiple twist pitches, you find that it integrates to zero every 360 degrees. Chances are, the IEC and wall outlet are setup to NOT zero out.

    The trapped flux within a two cord ground loop scenario DOES NOT diminish with distance, it continues to integrate upward. This is because one leg of the loop is buried within the source cord, the other leg is the intercept cord. Net result, the closer the intercept cord is to the source cord, the more flux travels outside the loop and therefore does not contribute to the loop intercept, reducing haversine derived harmonics induced within the loop.

    Far field, rf does not significantly reduce, due to the fact that the distance from the point origion is far away.

    The intensity of a planar wave is proportional to the equidistant surface from the point of origion. For a long conductor, that surface is a cylinder, and the surface increases in proportion to the radius, intensity varies as 1/r. For a very short radiator, the surface is a sphere, and the intensity drops off as 1/r2

    Cheers, John

  20. #70
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Saint James, NY
    Posts
    232

    Interesting thread

    I had a feeling when I asked my original question this thread would get intense.Not my intention but I find the varying opinions very interesting and I do try and take them all in objectively.I've certainly heard enough points on the pro-cable argument to get my attention.I'll replace that Amp power cord as per my original plans.It's peanuts compared to what my system cost.

    I don't have the technical expertise of many here, but I do have a good system and a pretty critical ear.I won't make any positive claims with this switch unless I hear them.However if I do hear a difference those $200 Diamondbacks for my CDP will be a given.I can't financially justify any major component upgrades for quite a while so this small stuff is a fun way to tweak your system.

    Very relative to this discussion is also the cost of the cord regardless of whether or not you believe in the premise.A $100 TO $200 Cord upgrade is not a tragic situation if little or no difference is heard.(I would imagine some retailers will also take the cord back if you are unhappy with it)I've seen these cords go for insane prices and yes for most of us that is almost impossible to justify.

  21. #71
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    You consider...

    ...looking for clarification putting words in someone's mouth?

    Quote Originally Posted by PS
    ...he likes to put words in your mouth....or in this case....text in your posts...
    In your case it could only improve things...but be that as it may...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords...
    As I said, clarification...If you filter your AC to reduce or eliminate all those wire-borne digital nasties that's one thing...but again, given the limited radiation fields and that proximity effect, the need for shielding of power cords seems a moot point...

    I've seen many a notice in medical offices prohibiting the use of cell phones, but never one for Gameboys, CDPs, PDAs, calculators et al...why? Cell phones are tranceivers, designed to do their thing at some distance from the nearest cell site, going through most walls and ceilings etc., their output measured in watts...The other stuff isn't and has a finite limit as to their unwanted output as governed by the FCC. So while it may be troublesome, I can't see why simply following the old guideline of never running power and signal wires in proximity of, or parallel to, each other isn't sufficient in most cases.

    If we're taliking about processor hash coming from each component so equipped, I'll respond has I have done numerous times...sounds like bad design to me...If your processor is affecting other components, what is it doing to the signal passing through the component that contains it? A good design will not allow its' processor to impinge on the audio signal..which means internal shielding or otherwise separating the audio signal from the control signals.

    As has been pointed out numerous times in the past, picking up the overt things like radio stations, CB radio and the like are usually due to the lengths and configuration of the wiring involved and there are cases where shielding may lessen or eliminate those problems...sometimes even re-positioning a component or rerouting a wire will do the trick...

    As to widening or depening a soundstage or lowering a noise floor...I don't think so...

    To my way of thinking, if you really get down'n'dirty and consider all of the various why's and wherefores, most of the arguments in support of these tweeks are like a bucket with a hole in it...

    jimHJJ(...it may seem to hold water, but winds up empty by the time you drag it home...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  22. #72
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I can't see why simply following the old guideline of never running power and signal wires in proximity of, or parallel to, each other isn't sufficient in most cases.
    Sufficient for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    If we're taliking about processor hash coming from each component so equipped...
    I'm referring to switching power supply hash. Easily seen on scopes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    To my way of thinking, if you really get down'n'dirty and consider all of the various why's and wherefores, most of the arguments in support of these tweeks are like a bucket with a hole in it...
    That is your viewpoint. I don't use arguments as the basis for mine. I find listening far more valuable.

    rw

  23. #73
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron
    That's not math..

    Magnetic fields for a single conductor fall off as 1/r.

    Magnetic fields for a conductor pair fall off as 1/r2.

    The field of a line cord is such a field. It is a dipole. Do not consider the fields of a line cord as radiated propagation of energy, consider it in terms of the static fields generated.

    A twisted conductor line cord has a helically oriented magnetic field. If you integrate that field over multiple twist pitches, you find that it integrates to zero every 360 degrees. Chances are, the IEC and wall outlet are setup to NOT zero out.

    The trapped flux within a two cord ground loop scenario DOES NOT diminish with distance, it continues to integrate upward. This is because one leg of the loop is buried within the source cord, the other leg is the intercept cord. Net result, the closer the intercept cord is to the source cord, the more flux travels outside the loop and therefore does not contribute to the loop intercept, reducing haversine derived harmonics induced within the loop.

    Far field, rf does not significantly reduce, due to the fact that the distance from the point origion is far away.

    The intensity of a planar wave is proportional to the equidistant surface from the point of origion. For a long conductor, that surface is a cylinder, and the surface increases in proportion to the radius, intensity varies as 1/r. For a very short radiator, the surface is a sphere, and the intensity drops off as 1/r2

    Cheers, John
    My Calculus teachers always told me, "If there's more than one way to get to the answer, then the simplest way is the correct one."
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  24. #74
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    My Calculus teachers always told me, "If there's more than one way to get to the answer, then the simplest way is the correct one."
    Sheesh, I think all my calculus teachers are dead..

    Oversimplification of a complex problem rarely works in the long run. Hawksford fell into that trap when he analyzed the bejeesus out of the skin depth approximation equations, instead of consideration of the actual problem at hand.

    Line cord radiation falls into that boat. If you simplify the problem to just radiation of energy, you consider only the methods to stop radiating TEM waves, or the reception of them. Unfortunately, that simplification does nothing for the prevention of the local magnetic fields and their actions. They are entirely different beasts in how they setup, their nearfield intensity, how to stop them from being splayed out, and how to make external wires insensitive to them.

    That is why I posted the relations for both local e/m fields as well as radiated ones.

    THEY ARE DIFFERENT BEASTS, AND MUST BE DEALT WITH AS SUCH...

    RFI is stopped by shields surrounding a linecord, 60 hz magfield is not.

    A shielded twisted pair is ineffective against the haversine draw within the pair, both for transmittal and reception.

    TEM wave reception drops down in effect as the receiver gets farther away, whereas ground loop issues involving the line cord increase the farther away the wire gets..

    Oversimplification loses much when ill considered.

    Cheers, John

  25. #75
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron
    Sheesh, I think all my calculus teachers are dead..

    Oversimplification of a complex problem rarely works in the long run. Hawksford fell into that trap when he analyzed the bejeesus out of the skin depth approximation equations, instead of consideration of the actual problem at hand.

    Line cord radiation falls into that boat. If you simplify the problem to just radiation of energy, you consider only the methods to stop radiating TEM waves, or the reception of them. Unfortunately, that simplification does nothing for the prevention of the local magnetic fields and their actions. They are entirely different beasts in how they setup, their nearfield intensity, how to stop them from being splayed out, and how to make external wires insensitive to them.

    That is why I posted the relations for both local e/m fields as well as radiated ones.

    THEY ARE DIFFERENT BEASTS, AND MUST BE DEALT WITH AS SUCH...

    RFI is stopped by shields surrounding a linecord, 60 hz magfield is not.

    A shielded twisted pair is ineffective against the haversine draw within the pair, both for transmittal and reception.

    TEM wave reception drops down in effect as the receiver gets farther away, whereas ground loop issues involving the line cord increase the farther away the wire gets..

    Oversimplification loses much when ill considered.

    Cheers, John
    You do know that I'm just playing with you right?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •