Power cords

[GMichael]

What kind of cable do you have running from your fusebox to your wall socket? Seems to me that a power cord that is better than that is just for looks and bragging rights.

[E-Stat]

What kind of cable do you have running from your fusebox to your wall socket? Seems to me that a power cord that is better than that is just for looks and bragging rights.

Filtration works anywhere downstream whether we're talking RFI with AV components or particulate with water filters. Especially when the source of the interference lies not in the wall, but sometimes inches away on your rack sharing the same AC.

rw

[Resident Loser]

If you're up for a quick experiment regarding "floobydust", take a CD player - any player including your battery powered Walkman and hold it near to an AM radio tuned off station. Notice any difference?

rw

...is I learned that trick nearly forty-years ago to identify specific, unmarked circuits...Injecting a signal (essentially from a spark-gap generator) at one end, the resultant RFI was carried over the wires and was easily located with a mis-tuned AM radio...the cheaper the better...

This proves: RFI exists? I concur...

jimHJJ(...we all know what I don't agree with...)

[GMichael]

Filtration works anywhere downstream whether we're talking RFI with AV components or particulate with water filters. Especially when the source of the interference lies not in the wall, but sometimes inches away on your rack sharing the same AC.

rw

So, you are saying that it's the insulation, not the cable itself, that makes the biggest difference? I could get behind that.

[E-Stat]

This proves: RFI exists? I concur...

Acknowledging the problem exists is the first step to resolution.

rw

[Resident Loser]

So, you are saying that it's the insulation, not the cable itself, that makes the biggest difference? I could get behind that.

...I believe it's a shielding concern...and I don't believe anyone has taken issue with the need for proper shielding when it is an issue as in "I hear radio stations when I play CDs"...

It get's dicey when any or all such interference is made suspect in masking "inner details", compromising "blackness" and other things of that sort...

jimHJJ(...those "audiophile" concerns...)

[GMichael]

...I believe it's a shielding concern...and I don't believe anyone has taken issue with the need for proper shielding when it is an issue as in "I hear radio stations when I play CDs"...

It get's dicey when any or all such interference is made suspect in masking "inner details", compromising "blackness" and other things of that sort...

jimHJJ(...those "audiophile" concerns...)

Sorry, when I said insulation, I incorrectly assumed (there's that word) that shielding was a part of it.

[E-Stat]

So, you are saying that it's the insulation, not the cable itself, that makes the biggest difference? I could get behind that.

There are two separate strategies used in many aftermarket or DIY power cords to address the problem of RFI generated noise in audio systems: active filter networks and effective shielding. I use Belden 83803 with Marinco plugs with my CD player. While it was primarily designed for powering fire alarms, the characteristics required to meet that need work very well for our purposes: 12 gauge, double shielding, and teflon insulation. You can read the tech sheet from there.

Belden 83803

This link provides a better diagram of the cable

I find that the audible result of using active RFI filtering is a slight reduction in a kind of false brightness that such noise generates. You get a "blacker" background that allows more of the low level detail to be heard.

rw

[Resident Loser]

Sorry, when I said insulation, I incorrectly assumed (there's that word) that shielding was a part of it.

...all is forgiven...

jimHJJ(...just wanted to clarify...)

[E-Stat]

It get's dicey when any or all such interference is made suspect in masking "inner details", compromising "blackness" and other things of that sort.

Just curious. Do you have any direct experience in this matter with any systems?

rw

[Resident Loser]

Just curious. Do you have any direct experience in this matter with any systems?

rw

...all of the possibilities that could affect S/N ratio, noisefloor, things of that nature, I have never found power, it's source or delivery system, to be an issue...Short answer: no...but that may also be attributable to owning "less-resolving" and non-high end gear...However, as my stuff is older, built with discrete components as opposed to ICs, op-amps, etc. I'd venture a guess that it's more on a par with today's higher-end gear than with the current crop of mass-market HT wares...Plus being an avowed Luddite, I have few potential generating sources and I know enough not to use dimmer-controlled lighting while seriously listening...Can't do much about the fridge...

I find the varying quality of source material to be the biggest fly in my ointment...

That Belden stuff...at the risk of repeating myself, you are using wire in place of cordage...

jimHJJ(...but thanks for asking...)

[E-Stat]

...all of the possibilities that could affect S/N ratio, noisefloor, things of that nature, I have never found power, it's source or delivery system, to be an issue...Short answer: no...

This topic reminds me of the Yogi Berra quote: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is".

I find the varying quality of source material to be the biggest fly in my ointment...

No disagreement here. This is simply a case of addressing one of many factors involved in the final outcome As for me, I choose to attack all the challenges.

That Belden stuff...at the risk of repeating myself, you are using wire in place of cordage...

Psst. Don't tell my CD player. Since it doesn't travel and compare notes with other components, it doesn't know the difference!

rw

[Resident Loser]

This topic reminds me of the Yogi Berra quote: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is".

...I've never witnessed any related empirical evidence to further theorize about or subsequently try to remedy...

jimHJJ(...additionally, no IEC connector, no problem...)

[PeruvianSkies]

Just curious. Do you have any direct experience in this matter with any systems?

rw

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.

[GMichael]

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.

DING DING!

And it's on, again.

[PeruvianSkies]

DING DING!

And it's on, again.

Where's your seat at? This could get ugly...oh well I guess I'm gonna hafta use my Muay Thai clinch.

[GMichael]

Where's your seat at? This could get ugly...oh well I guess I'm gonna hafta use my Muay Thai clinch.

Front row. I've got the dips & chips. Shhhhhh... and beer in this wine sack.

[PeruvianSkies]

Front row. I've got the dips & chips. Shhhhhh... and beer in this wine sack.

This is an open brawl....beer and wine is always welcome.

[markw]

Filtration works anywhere downstream whether we're talking RFI with AV components or particulate with water filters. Especially when the source of the interference lies not in the wall, but sometimes inches away on your rack sharing the same AC.

rw

If it's inches away in the same rack, odds are it'll be airborne, not passed through the power cord. Your example with that portable Cd player demonstrates that. There's no AC involved.

Not to mention that the power supply takes in 60 hz AC (and perhaps higher frequencies) but it processes that and outputs DC, and any hi frequency RF would be so attenuated as to bea non-issue.

[Resident Loser]

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.

...first of all presenting a different POV is not an argument...I do have experience with aftermarket speaker wiring, No audible diff until it all went terribly, terribly bad and I do have experience upgrading from OEM inclusion ICs to pricier ones, strictly on build quality issues and with ZERO discenible sonic differences...Given the fact that both were directly in the signal path and revealed nothing, why would anyone surmise that a power cord, an item so far removed from said signal path, would have any effect whatsoever...No empirical evidence to the contrary or performance complaints, I have no reason to go any further. Insofar as audible hash is concerned, if a better shielding will dispose of it, fine...regarding any of the other malarkey...well, S/N ratios can be measured...Anyone ever seen such specs provided to prove that "improvement"? Or widening or spreading out a sound stage using some of Shunyata's "Stardust" (at least that's what it used to be called)...all in the same bin as green markers, eutectic solders, mpingo blocks, tice clocks and 8X10s of Fatty Arbuckle...

As soon as you get any real evidence (as opposed to anecdotal hearsay) to the contrary, I'd love to hear all about it...

jimHJJ(...'til then...)

[E-Stat]

...additionally, no IEC connector, no problem.

Well, if you choose to solve the problem, then you must rewire the unit or add an IEC jack. I have done that for my old CDP.

rw

[PeruvianSkies]

...first of all presenting a different POV is not an argument...I do have experience with aftermarket speaker wiring, No audible diff until it all went terribly, terribly bad and I do have experience upgrading from OEM inclusion ICs to pricier ones, strictly on build quality issues and with ZERO discenible sonic differences...Given the fact that both were directly in the signal path and revealed nothing, why would anyone surmise that a power cord, an item so far removed from said signal path, would have any effect whatsoever...No empirical evidence to the contrary or performance complaints, I have no reason to go any further. Insofar as audible hash is concerned, if a better shielding will dispose of it, fine...regarding any of the other malarkey...well, S/N ratios can be measured...Anyone ever seen such specs provided to prove that "improvement"? Or widening or spreading out a sound stage using some of Shunyata's "Stardust" (at least that's what it used to be called)...all in the same bin as green markers, eutectic solders, mpingo blocks, tice clocks and 8X10s of Fatty Arbuckle...

As soon as you get any real evidence (as opposed to anecdotal hearsay) to the contrary, I'd love to hear all about it...

jimHJJ(...'til then...)

What system and equipment were you using? This is what e-stat originally asked you and you still cannot cite any experience in working with a system and power cords.

[E-Stat]

If it's inches away in the same rack, odds are it'll be airborne, not passed through the power cord. Your example with that portable Cd player demonstrates that. There's no AC involved.

AC wiring can serve as an effective antenna to receive and transmit the signal downstream. That's why shielded AC cords can be of value.

Not to mention that the power supply takes in 60 hz AC (and perhaps higher frequencies) but it processes that and outputs DC, and any hi frequency RF would be so attenuated as to bea non-issue.

That assumption is not supported by my experience nor that of quite a few manufacturers. The amount of RFI trapping varies greatly at the amplifier end. The addition of so many new digital based devices in our homes having switching power supplies has worsened the problem. There are some devices today that actually send wireless data directly through the AC!

rw

[Resident Loser]

Well, if you choose to solve the problem, then you must rewire the unit or add an IEC jack. I have done that for my old CDP.

rw

...I don't have a problem...certainly none I would pin on RFI and power cords...any effort involved in doing such a thing would simply be an inefficient use of time and money, when I could simply be listening to and enjoying some music...

Now give me a $6 pair of 'phones, some felt, masking tape and an X-acto knife and I can experiment for hours on end...

jimHJJ(...real problems, real solutions...)

[E-Stat]

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.

Well, let's not go overboard here. He has already stated that. He is basing his opinion based upon the empirical results he has read. Which is why I used the Berra quote. The reality, as with other cables, is that such tests have not been performed using the cables we are discussing at any serious level to provide an answer either way.

I trust my own testing and that of many other trusted ears. For those who wish to protest loudly to the contrary, have at it. It was this very topic that originally drew me to AR. I remain continually amazed at the effort some folks exert to discuss that which they find or believe to be of no value. Admittedly, some go to extremes with AC conditioning. Harry Pearson uses no fewer than ten rather pricey Nordost Valhalla power cords and two Thor conditioners in his two channel music system. At least that many in the HT/Multichannel.

To each his own.

rw