Power cords

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  • 04-12-2007, 08:34 AM
    jneutron
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    So sorry. I'm a baaaaaaaaaad poster.

    bully.. meanie..


    Sounds like Mae..."when I'm good I'm good, when I'm bad...........I'm really good.":ihih:

    Keep up the good work..

    John
  • 04-12-2007, 08:45 AM
    Resident Loser
    The word...
    ...convoluted springs to the fore yet again......

    [QUOTE=E-Stat]How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems?

    Here it comes, straight outta' left field...MEDICAL COMPANIES...This is Audio Review and we were talkin' audio components and the power cords that connect them weren't we?...from whence come the vital signs monitors?

    I really don't care what is happening to the "signal" going through my washing machine or microwave oven.

    I thought the power conditioner trapped all that stuff...besides you know perfectly well to what I'm referring...

    The "argument" remains the audibility of untrapped RFI that gets amplified downstream.

    Again...untrapped RFI...how do sheilded power cords eliminate wire-borne hash a power conditioner missed...

    Why on earth do you make that assumption?

    No assumption...it's a "fix" looking for a problem

    Nonsense. Power conditioning products have been available for decades.

    A...um...the subject was IEC connectors and the "cottage industry" of power cords...or so I thought...besides aren't power conditioners further back upstream...at least according to my Silva compass...your Garvin GPS must be runnin' low on batts...

    Yep, I'll have to agree with you here. :)

    Nice to be able to agree on something

    jimHJJ(...and with that brick wall...)
  • 04-12-2007, 09:23 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Here it comes, straight outta' left field...MEDICAL COMPANIES...This is Audio Review and we were talkin' audio components and the power cords that connect them weren't we?...from whence come the vital signs monitors?

    Gee thatís funny. That is exactly what I was thinkiní when you brought up the topic in post # 71!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I thought the power conditioner trapped all that stuff...besides you know perfectly well to what I'm referring...

    Honestly, I donít. RL, the cord is the power conditioner.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Again...untrapped RFI...how do sheilded power cords eliminate wire-borne hash a power conditioner missed...

    Same answer as above. See post # 33 for more details. In my experience, traditional conditioners limit the dynamic range of large power amplifiers. My VTLs draw 10 amps each at maximum output. I have four conditioners that I use primarily on the video systems.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    A...um...the subject was IEC connectors and the "cottage industry" of power cords...or so I thought...besides aren't power conditioners further back upstream...at least according to my Silva compass...your Garvin GPS must be runnin' low on batts...

    The topic remains power conditioning. There are different ways to achieve that goal. Shielded power cords with RC networks qualify as such. As for me, I put the solution nearest to the affected device. How did you know I have a Garvin GPS? Yes, the Quest 2 is a nifty portable unit. Has all of the US, Canada, and even Puerto Rico mapped. In í05, my wife attended a medical conference in PR and I tagged along. Got in some good scuba diving (which does wonders for clearing the ears) and the trusty Quest led me through a circuitous mountain path to the Arecibo Observatory for a tour.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Nice to be able to agree on something

    I suspect we agree on many things, just not this one. Like the joy we experience while listening to music. :)

    rw
  • 04-12-2007, 10:08 AM
    Resident Loser
    Why do I...
    [QUOTE=E-Stat]Gee thatís funny. That is exactly what I was thinkiní when you brought up the topic in post # 71!

    ...suspect you know precisely the point I was trying to make re: cell phones and other electronics vis a' vis RFI transmission...

    Honestly, I donít. RL, the cord is the power conditioner.

    OK...I'll bite...link please, preferably one with a schematic or at least some technical details re: these filtering ntwks...always willing to learn...

    How did you know I have a Garvin GPS?

    I know a great...many...things...Bach's Toccata and Fugue would seem appropriate at this point

    I suspect we agree on many things, just not this one. Like the joy we experience while listening to music. :)

    jimHJJ(...something else we agree on...)
  • 04-12-2007, 11:34 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...suspect you know precisely the point I was trying to make re: cell phones and other electronics vis a' vis RFI transmission.

    I gather that you assume that if other digital devices don't disturb medical instrumentation (re: post #71), then why would they be of concern to audio enthusiasts? I'll repeat my answer. How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems? Especially when those offending digital devices are plugged into the AC (unlike your portable device example).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    OK...I'll bite...link please, preferably one with a schematic or at least some technical details re: these filtering ntwks...always willing to learn...

    I don't know of any links that provide that kind of proprietary information. They're not necessarily exotic in their design.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...something else we agree on.

    Good!

    rw
  • 04-12-2007, 12:27 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    my head hurts...
    I simply can't keep reading this stuff anymore...it's making my head hurt in anguish over the very nature of the entire thing. No side is willing to give in on this issue, it's a waste of time and energy. I'd much rather enjoy my system w/ power cords and whether they are helping or not, I could care less cuz it sounds too damn good to matter at this point.
  • 04-12-2007, 03:09 PM
    dmoes
    My humble Thoughts on Power Cords
    I doubt that spending Hundreds of dollars on a single chord is worth it but there are a few things that I do to clean up the power a bit before it gets the component.
    For the amp a heavy guage powercord is a good Idea nothing more that 14 guage though since thats what is in your walls so anyting thicker unless your outlet is at the other end of the house is a waste of copper. components like DVDs and cable/satalite boxes that draw less than a max of 50 to 100 watts realy don.t need the thick stuff.
    You should use good connectors and outlets . Hospital grade is good but any high quallity grade will do fine. Try when possible to keep the power chords away from the rest of the wiring. Use a good power strip that not only has surge protection but EMI and trainsient filers you can get something like theTripplite Isobar ultra for under $80 that has EMI/transient filtering with multiple Capacitors and chokes on the incomming power plus additional emi filtering between outlet banks that can reduce transfer of noise generated in one components power supply from effecting another device.

    last I wrap the chords a few times through a ferrite core keeping close to the component. I am not sure where to get these Ferite cores I managed to salvage a bunch when they discarded a bunch at work. they are a ferite ring assembles in two halves that can be opened to wrap the wire then clamped closed again. I can't say for sure how much of a difference in the general sound is but it eliminated the pops clicks and visble interference on the TV that I had prior to the rewiring.

    as for residual Floobydust? This comes from a loose nut on the remote control.
  • 04-13-2007, 04:47 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    looks like we have a cease fire on this thread.
  • 04-14-2007, 09:57 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    looks like we have a cease fire on this thread.

    It is unfortunate that many of these debates in the past deteriorated into personal attacks, challenges and the like.

    Because my opinion is based upon years of direct experience with numerous cords and conditioners on different systems (not limited to my own), there is nothing for me to "give into". My experience is, well my experience. I don't find speculation to be especially valuable in this matter.

    rw
  • 04-14-2007, 11:30 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It is unfortunate that many of these debates in the past deteriorated into personal attacks, challenges and the like.

    Because my opinion is based upon years of direct experience with numerous cords and conditioners on different systems (not limited to my own), there is nothing for me to "give into". My experience is, well my experience. I don't find speculation to be especially valuable in this matter.

    rw

    Well, I am total agreement with you about cords and conditioners and likewise have seen the results, which I don't need to be proved different from. I can't just suddently NOT believe what I have witnessed to be true. So maybe a cease fire is the best as neither side has more to offer and no ones opinion will be changed through text, only ears.
  • 04-14-2007, 02:05 PM
    MikeyBC
    WOW a peaceful ending...yay !

    :)
  • 04-16-2007, 05:07 AM
    Resident Loser
    That's cuz...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MikeyBC
    WOW a peaceful ending...yay !

    :)

    ...and...WARNING! WARNING!...here comes the incendiary part...I have a life, need time to listen to music, and don't do weekends 'round these parts...

    But anyway...de facto cessation aborted...my attempt at an analogy re: cell phones. medical devices, etc. was that there are devices that broadcast RFI...there are other devices that don't (or at least shouldn't AND if they do are subject to limitations of the proximity effect)...and not that anyone in the medical devices industry gives de-friggin'-fibrillator about audio and vice-versa...

    As I see it:

    (1)You clean up the mains feed to your audio gear with a power conditioner...

    (2)You thwart non-AC-line-sourced RFI, as in radio waves, CBs, processor hash (which for some reasons defies the physical limits of said proximity effect, etc.) with a shielded cord...

    What else is there? And I'm [really tryin' to understand the POV...As stated previously, any digital/processor artifacts within a component should be segregated from the audio signal by design and as a by-product should also be incapable of contaminating adjacent components, wiring, etc.

    I don't see and cannot quite comprehend what could possibly remain from an EMI/RFI POV...and somehow a further removing of the sonic lint from the black fabric, with something above and beyond a shielded power cord, simply makes no sense IMO...Or are we simply talkin' belt AND suspenders?

    jimHJJ(...happy Monday!...)
  • 04-16-2007, 06:37 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    You know that part...
    of the horror movie where you think the bad guys dead...and then he just keeps getting back up again and again and again....
  • 04-16-2007, 07:16 AM
    Resident Loser
    Be quiet...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    of the horror movie where you think the bad guys dead...and then he just keeps getting back up again and again and again....

    ...the adults are trying to talk...

    jimHJJ(...capiche?...)
  • 04-16-2007, 07:31 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...the adults are trying to talk...

    jimHJJ(...capiche?...)

    Did you think I was talking to you? I never directed that statement towards anyone, but since you had a comeback you must have felt that it was...I wonder why. hmmmm.
  • 04-16-2007, 07:50 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    (1)You clean up the mains feed to your audio gear with a power conditioner...

    (2)You thwart non-AC-line-sourced RFI, as in radio waves, CBs, processor hash (which for some reasons defies the physical limits of said proximity effect, etc.) with a shielded cord...

    First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    As stated previously, any digital/processor artifacts within a component should be segregated from the audio signal by design and as a by-product should also be incapable of contaminating adjacent components, wiring, etc.

    Unfortunately, there is a difference between should and do.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I don't see and cannot quite comprehend what could possibly remain from an EMI/RFI POV...

    Once you adequately filter the noise generated by said, then nothing does remain. Other than an unveiled signal. :)

    rw
  • 04-16-2007, 08:53 AM
    Resident Loser
    I have...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    Did you think I was talking to you? I never directed that statement towards anyone, but since you had a comeback you must have felt that it was...I wonder why. hmmmm.

    ...no idea, nor do I care, as to whom you were talking to...the simple fact is you were and since by your own admission this thread has caused your head to hurt, you should probably sit this out...

    jimHJJ(...now please, I have an intelligent adult to whom I need reply...)
  • 04-16-2007, 09:16 AM
    Resident Loser
    Tell ya...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.


    Unfortunately, there is a difference between should and do.


    Once you adequately filter the noise generated by said, then nothing does remain. Other than an unveiled signal. :)

    rw

    ...what I'm gonna' do...when time allows, I'll bring a test device home with me to help gauge the radiated hash fields...I have no idea what this will prove, but what the hey...

    jimHJJ(...I'm game...)
  • 04-16-2007, 10:00 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...what I'm gonna' do...when time allows, I'll bring a test device home with me to help gauge the radiated hash fields...I have no idea what this will prove, but what the hey...

    jimHJJ(...I'm game...)

    How about the radiated hash fields coming from your mouth? That would be off the charts as you say so much, yet say so little. The only reason my head hurts is from your psychobabble. You just can't let things be. This thread was at a standstill, but then out-of-retirement you have to come back with more useless ramblings. Blah blah blah. What are you trying to prove exactly? I think that E-stat and I have already made up our minds as it would seem you have as well, so this is never going to get resolved. You believe what you want and we'll believe what we want.

    Quote:

    have a life, need time to listen to music, and don't do weekends 'round these parts...
    so that explains why it's so nice and quiet around here on the weekends...
  • 04-16-2007, 11:00 AM
    Resident Loser
    Actually...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    How about the radiated hash fields coming from your mouth? That would be off the charts as you say so much, yet say so little. The only reason my head hurts is from your psychobabble. You just can't let things be. This thread was at a standstill, but then out-of-retirement you have to come back with more useless ramblings. Blah blah blah. What are you trying to prove exactly? I think that E-stat and I have already made up our minds as it would seem you have as well, so this is never going to get resolved. You believe what you want and we'll believe what we want.



    so that explains why it's so nice and quiet around here on the weekends...

    ...I don't give a fiddler's fornication what goes on in your "mind"...although I'm disposed to give E-Stat the benefit of doubt and actually do some testing...And again, and I realize how difficult this is for you to cope with, it's more for the noobs than anything else...so like it or not TFB...

    Nice and quiet? You mean another boring meeting of the mutual admiration society, where never is heard a discouraging word? A nice warm and fuzzy place where your brain won't hurt?

    jimHJJ(...bite me...and better buy Bayer...)
  • 04-17-2007, 06:52 AM
    daviethek
    how bout those Cubs.
    Entertaining debate, but I would call this one a draw.

    In a somewhat related subject, are any of you spoon benders aware of a generic whole-house power conditioning product that could be installed by an electrician at the junction box? It might remove the need to fret over piece-meal improvements in power quality at the component level.
  • 04-17-2007, 07:18 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by daviethek
    In a somewhat related subject, are any of you spoon benders aware of a generic whole-house power conditioning product that could be installed by an electrician at the junction box?

    Such devices exist to combat issues originating with the power source and to provide whole house surge protection.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by daviethek
    It might remove the need to fret over piece-meal improvements in power quality at the component level.

    How would such a device address locally generated RFI and noise put back into the AC only inches or feet away from the amplification stages?

    rw
  • 04-17-2007, 07:37 AM
    Resident Loser
    Well...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by daviethek
    Entertaining debate, but I would call this one a draw.

    In a somewhat related subject, are any of you spoon benders aware of a generic whole-house power conditioning product that could be installed by an electrician at the junction box? It might remove the need to fret over piece-meal improvements in power quality at the component level.

    ...if I read E-Stat correctly, a whole-house conditioner at the service entrance would still present problems. Other appliances, etc. and the audio gear would be connected on the post side of the unit, so nearer to the audio stuff is prefereable keeping the fridge, etc. on the pre- side...and then we get into the current limiting aspect and the need for individual treatment...While I understand the basis for his point, the concept of some sort of "passive" conditioning seems to me to be more one of wishful thinking...I mean there are chokes that are fitted to data cables, but in that case we're dealing with data, at data frequencies and speeds, regular, sychronized packets and streams, not random, errant sources of audio "veiling"...

    Once we get beyond AC line-borne artifacts and airborne RFI we are then confronted by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?...I ain't no EE but...'dunno 'bout that...the more troubleshooting logic I try to apply to the situation, the less logical it all becomes.

    jimHJJ(...spoon benders?...good one...it may get you some red chicklets tho'...)
  • 04-17-2007, 07:59 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...we are then confronted by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?...I ain't no EE but...'dunno 'bout that...the more troubleshooting logic I try to apply to the situation, the less logical it all becomes.

    Where on earth did you get that concept?

    rw
  • 04-17-2007, 08:05 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Where on earth did you get that concept?

    rw

    From his fantasy concept bag-o-nonsense. Didn't ya know?
  • 04-17-2007, 08:12 AM
    Resident Loser
    Aaaa...errr...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Where on earth did you get that concept?

    rw

    ...post #96...Wherein it is written:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    ...First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.


    jimHJJ(...perhaps some clarification might be in order...)
  • 04-17-2007, 09:11 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...perhaps some clarification might be in order...)

    Agreed. You mentioned three concepts. My comments discuss the first two:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Once we get beyond AC line-borne artifacts and airborne RFI...

    1. Switching power supplies are among the sources that send noise into the AC.
    2. CD/DVD players generate local RFI fields.

    In your third "...by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?", what is the source of the feedback?

    rw
  • 04-17-2007, 09:58 AM
    Resident Loser
    I dunno'...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Agreed. You mentioned three concepts. My comments discuss the first two:


    1. Switching power supplies are among the sources that send noise into the AC.
    2. CD/DVD players generate local RFI fields.

    In your third "...by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?", what is the source of the feedback?

    rw

    ...you tell me, I ended the not-quite rhetorical statement with a question mark? What is the source?

    If we condition the mains and shield from the airborne, how does an aftermarket cord guard against AC echo, slapback, whatever contaminants that another components' power supply might transmit to the common post-conditioned AC?

    If digital players generate fields that don't drop off precipitously, how do these same cords handle that hash?

    BTW, preliminary tests indicate that an unshielded power cords' 60Hz field is <2in., a CPUs field extends for around four inches and that after that, a CRTs forward field, raster perhaps, (at a distance of 24" or so) becomes evident, having been masked by that of the CPU...true, it's not audio but it demonstrates the proximity effect involved.

    jimHJJ(...just some observations...)
  • 04-17-2007, 10:22 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    If we condition the mains and shield from the airborne, how does an aftermarket cord guard against AC echo, slapback, whatever contaminants that another components' power supply might transmit to the common post-conditioned AC?

    Please refer to the specific comments that led you to this question. "Post conditioned AC?" Huh?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    If digital players generate fields that don't drop off precipitously, how do these same cords handle that hash?

    Shielding.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    BTW, preliminary tests indicate that an unshielded power cords' 60Hz field is <2in., a CPUs field extends for around four inches and that after that, a CRTs forward field, raster perhaps, (at a distance of 24" or so) becomes evident, having been masked by that of the CPU...true, it's not audio but it demonstrates the proximity effect involved.

    More importantly, what is the radiation distance for the primary villain - the CDP?

    rw
  • 04-18-2007, 07:04 AM
    Resident Loser
    Ok...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    (1)..."Post conditioned AC?" Huh?


    (2)Shielding.


    (3)More importantly, what is the radiation distance for the primary villain - the CDP?

    rw

    (1) If you use a line conditioner, I assume you will connect all audio gear to the post conditioned AC outlets...this is a common connect point...if any noise from the power supplies of the connected components is fed back through a cord (and not inductive in nature) towards this common AC source, how would a specialized, aftermarket power cord eliminate it, after all it's now line-borne both coming and going?.

    (2) A relatively inexpensive shielded cord should be sufficient in this respect...

    (3) Testing a CDP in my PCs CPU: Nothing from the sides encased in metal...at the plastic faceplate: drawer/deck motor noise evident to about 3in., transport motor to about 1 1/2 in. using an inductve probe, Spool-up of the motor sounded like a Pink Floyd cut...

    jimHJJ(...Home system to follow...)
  • 04-18-2007, 08:53 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    (1) If you use a line conditioner, I assume you will connect all audio gear to the post conditioned AC outlets...this is a common connect point...if any noise from the power supplies of the connected components is fed back through a cord (and not inductive in nature) towards this common AC source, how would a specialized, aftermarket power cord eliminate it, after all it's now line-borne both coming and going?.

    RL, this topic should not be as difficult to grasp as you seem to make it. At the expense of repeating myself, aftermarket AC cords are conditioners. I don't know of anyone who has suggested that one fit an aftermarket cord downstream of a conditioner. As I stated back in post 70 odd, line conditioners limit current for high powered amplifiers. That is why I DO NOT use them with either my HT receiver nor my two power amps.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    (2) A relatively inexpensive shielded cord should be sufficient in this respect...

    That speculation is not supported by my experience. I use five different sets of aftermarket cords, two of which are DIY. One set uses Belden 19364 using a single Beldfoil shield. It is NOT as good a cord as any of the others. I wish it were.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    (3) Testing a CDP in my PCs CPU

    What, by the way, are you measuring?

    rw
  • 06-30-2007, 02:24 AM
    O'Shag
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...replacing the power cord on my Waring Professional blender will make superior margaritas...less Residual Floobydust Interference...

    jimHJJ(...yep...)

    Hilarious! And perfectly sensible anicdote.

    I started out wanting to belief the argument that interconnects and speaker cables all sound the same was true. Who wouldn't? No one wants to spend extra money on cables that are largely hidden from view anyway. But I have long since dispelled this notion, since I started hearing big differences in both interconnects and speaker cables sereral years ago.

    But powercords are another matter. They do not carry the audio signal. they conduct the electricity to power components. Although a benefit may be observed from reducing RFI EMI interference or maximizing the flow of electricity from the wall socket, the perceived improvement will be minimal at best. Do I think its work it to spend perhaps $200 bucks on a powercord that will bring a minimal benefit? - yes, if it is well made. But the notion of spending more than $500 or even $1000 seems ridiculous. No wonder 'normal' people regard audiophiles as audiophools. The thing is that the people selling the powercords are not always charlatans. They believe what they are saying. There as deluded as a lot of audiosheep out there.

    Also it would seem to me that component manufacturers would be quite pissed off by this blatant hucksterism that directly robs them of sales. Clearly most of us that spend large on powercords are taking from a budget for components. And components are certainly much more expensive to manufacture. They clearly must feel that the powercord vendors are getting a free ride on their coat tails, and taking business from them too. Mind you, if I were a powercord vendor, and people would buy my powercords at massive prices, I'd perpetuate the myth also.

    I have the RX-Z9 receiver from Yamaha. The manual clearly states that they do not recommend using any other aftermarket powercord as there will be no benefit. This is Yamaha's top receiver too and an excellent porduct at that. Bravo Yamaha for honesty.
  • 06-30-2007, 07:08 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Although a benefit may be observed from reducing RFI EMI interference or maximizing the flow of electricity from the wall socket, the perceived improvement will be minimal at best.

    And yet you have two Tice conditioners. Aren't those somewhere between $1600 and $2000 each? Have you tried any aftermarket cords with your ARC gear or MF DAC? I used to have an SP-6C and VT-100 myself. Still use an SP-9 MKIII.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Also it would seem to me that component manufacturers would be quite pissed off by this blatant hucksterism that directly robs them of sales.

    With which manufacturers have you spoken or read their feelings about this (other than Yamaha)? That is not what Luke Manley of VTL tells me. In fact, he says they deliberately supply an inexpensive, yet rated-for-current cord because most of his customers use aftermarket cords. That is not what Carl Marchisotto of Nola has told Harry Pearson. He now uses Nordost cabling in his system. That is not what Jud Barber of Joule Electra has told me. He favors the Elrod cables. That is not what Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT thinks. They supply an AC cord only upon request for the same reason as Luke. That is not what John Curl of Parasound (has also designed for Mark Levinson, Vendetta, CTC) thinks. That is not what Charles Hansen of Ayre (formerly with Avalon) thinks. He likes the Cardas cord. Those are only the guys with whom I'm spoken or specifically read of their feeling on the matter. I suspect that If you were to speak with Bill Johnson or any number of other gifted designers, they would likewise concur. While Nelson Pass is neutral on the topic, he has as of late rethought the value of keeping the power source absolutely clean via these improvements to his X.5 series of Pass Laboratory amps:

    "Changes to these models include improvements to power transformers, paralleled high speed / soft recovery rectifiers, improved AC EMI filters, more paralleled power supply capacitors, increased supply RC filtering..."

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Clearly most of us that spend large on powercords are taking from a budget for components.

    Do you think I shortchanged some aspect of my system having purchased the Harmonic Technology cords?

    rw
  • 06-30-2007, 08:14 AM
    Feanor
    Devil's advocate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    ...
    With which manufacturers have you spoken or read their feelings about this (other than Yamaha)? That is not what Luke Manley of VTL tells me. In fact, he says they deliberately supply an inexpensive, yet rated-for-current cord because most of his customers use aftermarket cords. That is not what Carl Marchisotto of Nola has told Harry Pearson. He now uses Nordost cabling in his system. That is not what Jud Barber of Joule Electra has told me. He favors the Elrod cables. That is not what Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT thinks. They supply an AC cord only upon request for the same reason as Luke. That is not what John Curl of Parasound (has also designed for Mark Levinson, Vendetta, CTC) thinks. That is not what Charles Hansen of Ayre (formerly with Avalon) thinks. He likes the Cardas cord. Those are only the guys with whom I'm spoken or specifically read of their feeling on the matter. I suspect that If you were to speak with Bill Johnson or any number of other gifted designers, they would likewise concur. While Nelson Pass is neutral on the topic, he has as of late rethought the value of keeping the power source absolutely clean via these improvements to his X.5 series of Pass Laboratory amps:

    "Changes to these models include improvements to power transformers, paralleled high speed / soft recovery rectifiers, improved AC EMI filters, more paralleled power supply capacitors, increased supply RC filtering..."
    ...
    rw

    E-Stat,

    Has it occured to you that these gents are all in the same racket and don't want to stick out by refuting each other, much less the contradicting the lucrative audiophile fancy that >$500 PCs make a day-and-night difference?

    Personally I have been using shielded PC cables for key components for a while, granted I've stuck to $50 PS Audio PowerPunch and $25 DIY Belden/Marinco cables. Also, I've used a Tripp Lite IS1000 isolation transformer, a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet, and currently a Belkin PureAV PF60. None of these have produced any noticable difference in sound. (Well, with the possible exception that I think I might hear an extremely minute improvement using the Belden/Marinco with my DAC, but that could be my imagination as likely than not.)

    It is certainly possible that people like yourself who have top-end equipment might notice significant differences, but I don't think it's good advice for people with entry to mid-level systems to spend a lot on PC cables. Apart from special situations, most people will be better off improving the components themselves.
  • 06-30-2007, 08:55 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    Has it occured to you that these gents are all in the same racket and don't want to stick out by refuting each other, much less the contradicting the lucrative audiophile fancy that >$500 PCs make a day-and-night difference?

    Considered and rejected once I got to know a number of these designers. The folks I've met are genuine music enthusiasts. I'll leave the conspiracy theories to others.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    None of these have produced any noticable difference in sound. (Well, with the possible exception that I think I might hear an extremely minute improvement using the Belden/Marinco with my DAC, but that could be my imagination as likely than not.)

    Ok.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    It is certainly possible that people like yourself who have top-end equipment might notice significant differences, but I don't think it's good advice for people with entry to mid-level systems to spend a lot on PC cables.

    First of all, I've never said that the differences were significant nor do I recommend that folks spend half their budget on either high end AC cords or the expensive conditioners that O'Shag uses either. The benefits are system and environment specific. I have two wireless access points, four computers, three digital cable boxes and six CD/DVD players - all of which either radiate RFI or spew digital hash back into the AC line. I do, however, have a couple of sub $100 DIY cords that I believe are worth merit in more modest systems. Like my vintage double New Advent based one. Where I also use a $100 Monster HTS-1000 conditioner for front end components.

    As you are probably aware there are guys here (Mash, Skeptic/Soundmind, Woodman, FL Zapped come to mind) who say there cannot be any possible benefits, regardless of the system. Naturally, all of them have zero experience with the gear I've referenced - certainly not limited to my own. I never did get a response from Woodman after I asked him as to his specific experience beyond TV repair. He tried his best to "imagine" what I was talking about.

    Woodman on AC

    Over the years, more than one poster here has also suggested that I invest in room treatments instead of tweaky cords. Naturally, those guys don't realize (or bother to check gallery) that I already use various treatments in my system and have done so since I was a teenager. I use a dozen bass traps, damping panels, ficus trees, etc. for that very reason. I spent a day using a Radio Shack SPL meter on a tripod using a Stereophile Test CD to get the bass response remarkably flat in the bottom four octaves. I have always gotten that concept and invested in that side of the system first. While the audible benefits from lowering the noise floor using power conditioning strategies are subtle, I have nevertheless found them to be there.

    rw
  • 06-30-2007, 10:20 AM
    Feanor
    This apology
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Considered and rejected once I got to know a number of these designers. The folks I've met are genuine music enthusiasts. I'll leave the conspiracy theories to others.
    ...
    rw

    I apologize if I seem to be questioning the sincerity of those folks or accusing them of being less than honest. I'm sure they're thoroughly ingenuous. But the truth is, though, that human beings can believe whatever they want to believe, and biases and self-interest generally affect what they want to believe. Amongst audiophiles, self-delusion is common, (though it's not unique to audiophiles).
  • 06-30-2007, 10:39 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    But the truth is, though, that human beings can believe whatever they want to believe, and biases and self-interest generally affect what they want to believe.

    Please explain to me the "self-interest" motivation for audio designers acknowledging that the use of products sold by companies completely unrelated to their own enhances theirs? How do they directly benefit from recommending complementary components? Surely not monetarily. Do you think audiophiles prefer the notion of having to buy something else to optimize the use of the primary component? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I have never followed this speculative line of thinking.

    rw
  • 06-30-2007, 12:29 PM
    Feanor
    No accusation, like I said
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Please explain to me the "self-interest" motivation for audio designers acknowledging that the use of products sold by companies completely unrelated to their own enhances theirs? How do they directly benefit from recommending complementary components? Surely not monetarily. Do you think audiophiles prefer the notion of having to buy something else to optimize the use of the primary component? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I have never followed this speculative line of thinking.

    rw

    No, I'm not accusing any of them of venality. That people subscribe to the popular myths for the reason that they do wish to seem out of step or "policitally incorrect. Yet they most often do this unconsciously.

    The myth I'm talking about is the audiophile myth that (a) all factors make a difference, and (b) that all differences are significant.
  • 06-30-2007, 09:00 PM
    O'Shag
    E-Stat,

    Each to his own, and I'm genuinely not against others spending their money however they wish. But people who don't have a balanced perspective are generally not the best source of an un-biased opinion. I haven't heard all powercords so can't make a valued judgement overall that others could rely on. But I do know this; the value offered is low for the aftermarket powercords I've heard in friends systems.

    I do have three aftermarket powercords myself, all from monster cable. I paid over $100 each for them I believe. They are extremely well constructed and do look rather attractive in a macho sort of way, but for the life of me I can't here a difference between these and a $4.95 PC cord from Frys electronics.

    With all due respect, I must submit that the 'conspiracy theory' remark is a cop-out. Are you insinuating that everyone offering resistance to the idea (that very expensive after market powercords are absolutely neccessary for premium performance) are 'loonies' endorsing conspiracy theories? Incidently, my powerconditioners are the Tice Powerblock/titan; one pair for each channel. Power conditioners offer more value I believe. I just can't figure out how a power cord can cost more than the Shunyata Hydra for example. What a topsy turvy world we live in...

    By the way, Hi Bill.
  • 06-30-2007, 09:28 PM
    O'Shag
    As far as whole house power conditioning is concerned, I've though about implementing the following set up;

    Solar panels on roof feed set of batteries in basement dedicated to audio system, which provide unninterrupted power for about two days, but are continuously recharging. The batteries feed dedicated circuits in the listening room. I've read about a battery system in a periodical a while back. I think one was demonstrated at CES or some audio show in Europe. I don;t know how feasible the solar-powered source would be i.e. if enough electricity would be generated to make it practical. but I intend to research this. As far as expensive powercords being neccessary, I wouldn;t think so. All well-designed components are configured to reject EMI/RFI, and if the source power is clean than I would think it would be overkill to spend more on expensive powercords.

    E-Stat, which would you choose; a) JPS Labs Illuminata (set of two) or the Mark Levinson No. 326s or No. 32 reference preamps, both of which regenerate their own AC and a very pure power sinwave?