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ringside seats?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
DING DING!
And it's on, again.
Where's your seat at? This could get ugly...oh well I guess I'm gonna hafta use my Muay Thai clinch.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Where's your seat at? This could get ugly...oh well I guess I'm gonna hafta use my Muay Thai clinch.
Front row. I've got the dips & chips. Shhhhhh... and beer in this wine sack.
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no worries...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Front row. I've got the dips & chips. Shhhhhh... and beer in this wine sack.
This is an open brawl....beer and wine is always welcome.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Filtration works anywhere downstream whether we're talking RFI with AV components or particulate with water filters. Especially when the source of the interference lies not in the wall, but sometimes inches away on your rack sharing the same AC.
rw
If it's inches away in the same rack, odds are it'll be airborne, not passed through the power cord. Your example with that portable Cd player demonstrates that. There's no AC involved.
Not to mention that the power supply takes in 60 hz AC (and perhaps higher frequencies) but it processes that and outputs DC, and any hi frequency RF would be so attenuated as to bea non-issue.
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Well..
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.
...first of all presenting a different POV is not an argument...I do have experience with aftermarket speaker wiring, No audible diff until it all went terribly, terribly bad and I do have experience upgrading from OEM inclusion ICs to pricier ones, strictly on build quality issues and with ZERO discenible sonic differences...Given the fact that both were directly in the signal path and revealed nothing, why would anyone surmise that a power cord, an item so far removed from said signal path, would have any effect whatsoever...No empirical evidence to the contrary or performance complaints, I have no reason to go any further. Insofar as audible hash is concerned, if a better shielding will dispose of it, fine...regarding any of the other malarkey...well, S/N ratios can be measured...Anyone ever seen such specs provided to prove that "improvement"? Or widening or spreading out a sound stage using some of Shunyata's "Stardust" (at least that's what it used to be called)...all in the same bin as green markers, eutectic solders, mpingo blocks, tice clocks and 8X10s of Fatty Arbuckle...
As soon as you get any real evidence (as opposed to anecdotal hearsay) to the contrary, I'd love to hear all about it...
jimHJJ(...'til then...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...additionally, no IEC connector, no problem.
Well, if you choose to solve the problem, then you must rewire the unit or add an IEC jack. I have done that for my old CDP.
rw
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Once again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...first of all presenting a different POV is not an argument...I do have experience with aftermarket speaker wiring, No audible diff until it all went terribly, terribly bad and I do have experience upgrading from OEM inclusion ICs to pricier ones, strictly on build quality issues and with ZERO discenible sonic differences...Given the fact that both were directly in the signal path and revealed nothing, why would anyone surmise that a power cord, an item so far removed from said signal path, would have any effect whatsoever...No empirical evidence to the contrary or performance complaints, I have no reason to go any further. Insofar as audible hash is concerned, if a better shielding will dispose of it, fine...regarding any of the other malarkey...well, S/N ratios can be measured...Anyone ever seen such specs provided to prove that "improvement"? Or widening or spreading out a sound stage using some of Shunyata's "Stardust" (at least that's what it used to be called)...all in the same bin as green markers, eutectic solders, mpingo blocks, tice clocks and 8X10s of Fatty Arbuckle...
As soon as you get any real evidence (as opposed to anecdotal hearsay) to the contrary, I'd love to hear all about it...
jimHJJ(...'til then...)
What system and equipment were you using? This is what e-stat originally asked you and you still cannot cite any experience in working with a system and power cords.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
If it's inches away in the same rack, odds are it'll be airborne, not passed through the power cord. Your example with that portable Cd player demonstrates that. There's no AC involved.
AC wiring can serve as an effective antenna to receive and transmit the signal downstream. That's why shielded AC cords can be of value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
Not to mention that the power supply takes in 60 hz AC (and perhaps higher frequencies) but it processes that and outputs DC, and any hi frequency RF would be so attenuated as to bea non-issue.
That assumption is not supported by my experience nor that of quite a few manufacturers. The amount of RFI trapping varies greatly at the amplifier end. The addition of so many new digital based devices in our homes having switching power supplies has worsened the problem. There are some devices today that actually send wireless data directly through the AC!
rw
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Therein lies the rub...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Well, if you choose to solve the problem, then you must rewire the unit or add an IEC jack. I have done that for my old CDP.
rw
...I don't have a problem...certainly none I would pin on RFI and power cords...any effort involved in doing such a thing would simply be an inefficient use of time and money, when I could simply be listening to and enjoying some music...
Now give me a $6 pair of 'phones, some felt, masking tape and an X-acto knife and I can experiment for hours on end...
jimHJJ(...real problems, real solutions...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.
Well, let's not go overboard here. He has already stated that. He is basing his opinion based upon the empirical results he has read. Which is why I used the Berra quote. The reality, as with other cables, is that such tests have not been performed using the cables we are discussing at any serious level to provide an answer either way.
I trust my own testing and that of many other trusted ears. For those who wish to protest loudly to the contrary, have at it. It was this very topic that originally drew me to AR. I remain continually amazed at the effort some folks exert to discuss that which they find or believe to be of no value. Admittedly, some go to extremes with AC conditioning. Harry Pearson uses no fewer than ten rather pricey Nordost Valhalla power cords and two Thor conditioners in his two channel music system. At least that many in the HT/Multichannel.
To each his own. :)
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...I don't have a problem...certainly none I would pin on RFI and power cords.
Fair comments, but not necessarily relevant to others who are not as technology averse. I think it is a fair statement that most folks choose to have cell phones, wireless telephones, microwave ovens, digital cable boxes, flat panel TVs with switching power supplies, etc., etc. Heck even the new washer and dryer -- excuse me drying cabinet, has digital controls. I'm certainly not going to unplug all these various devices every time I wish to listen to music.
I'm convinced there is not a case of mass hysteria. It is a case of differing systems in differing environments with differing levels of performance expectation.
rw
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yes, to each his own...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Well, let's not go overboard here. He has already stated that. He is basing his opinion based upon the empirical results he has read. Which is why I used the Berra quote. The reality, as with other cables, is that such tests have not been performed using the cables we are discussing at any serious level to provide an answer either way.
I trust my own testing and that of many other trusted ears. For those who wish to protest loudly to the contrary, have at it. It was this very topic that originally drew me to AR. I remain continually amazed at the effort some folks exert to discuss that which they find or believe to be of no value. Admittedly, some go to extremes with AC conditioning. Harry Pearson uses no fewer than ten rather pricey Nordost Valhalla power cords and two Thor conditioners in his two channel music system. At least that many in the HT/Multichannel.
To each his own. :)
rw
I certainly agree with that statement. "To each his own", which seems to only work one way around here. One side says "hey, prove that you can tell a difference" while the other side says "I don't have to prove anything, listen for yourself". I am on the side that says "take a listen for yourself", but the other side insists on going through the mathematical aspects and tries to disprove without actually 'listening'.
I don't have to prove what my ears tell me. I can't tell you the WHY or the HOW, but I can certainly bring people over to listen and decide for themself. Now, I can't just pretend like I don't notice in order to be drawn to the 'other' side. However, I have heard systems and tested out a variety of things in which case I came up with nearly identical results. Therefore what I find to be true is that there is no definites in this hobby. Each system, each cable, each speaker, whatever is going to sound and and perform different. Some people are trying to apply blanket rules and blanket laws to things that are out of their understanding or experience.
I think it's insane to think that power cables DON'T make a difference and equally I think it's insane to think that they make ALL the difference. The reality here is that it's all going to be dependant on the circumstances of each system and setup. Maybe those who have not experienced a difference have not had the right system and setup to tell a difference and it is not their fault that they are unaware of differences.
What's upsetting though is that the people who believe in the difference of equipment and things like cables is that we are never attacking those who believe otherwise, it's always the other way around. I am tolerate of their opinions when a newbie asks the hated question "Does a power cord make a difference".
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Gee whiz...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
What system and equipment were you using? This is what e-stat originally asked you and you still cannot cite any experience in working with a system and power cords.
...I saw an answer...E-Stat, did you see one? GM? markw? Gee, I guess you're the only one who didn't...Very short attention span...
Perhaps, since you lay claim to having had an umbilical epiphany of sorts, you should describe what in particular you heard and under what conditions you heard them...sighted auditions, blind, double blind? Were the dB levels exact? How about the humidity...you know sound travels at different speeds depending on it's level...and that attention span...tsk, tsk...
jimHJJ(...in any event we're all keen to know...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
What's upsetting though is that the people who believe in the difference of equipment and things like cables is that we are never attacking those who believe otherwise, it's always the other way around. I am tolerate of their opinions when a newbie asks the hated question "Does a power cord make a difference".
Well, in the grand scheme of things, none of this should really be upsetting. With a different hobby, there are those who get all excited about the divide in the motorcycle community. I'm not a Harley-Davidson fan. Air cooled 45 degree V twins are bronze age archaic. They all shake. They are not as reliable as water cooled designs. Period. Even my lawn tractor uses an inherently balanced 90 degree V twin. As does the V-4 in my Honda. Having said that, they are quite popular. For reasons that are very different from my buying criteria.
As for the debate, let each side present its evidence so that others may arrive at their own conclusions. Emotional responses should not be a factor. I will readily agree, however, that buying a $500 power cable is not the first upgrade someone should consider if they are using a typical receiver based system.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
Were the dB levels exact?
Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain. :)
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...I saw an answer...E-Stat, did you see one? GM? markw? Gee, I guess you're the only one who didn't...Very short attention span...
Perhaps, since you lay claim to having had an umbilical epiphany of sorts, you should describe what in particular you heard and under what conditions you heard them...sighted auditions, blind, double blind? Were the dB levels exact? How about the humidity...you know sound travels at different speeds depending on it's level...and that attention span...tsk, tsk...
jimHJJ(...in any event we're all keen to know...)
Sometimes I put the better gas in my car instead of the cheap stuff. My car runs smoother, better acceleration, etc etc. Some people think it's all the same junk. I don't always spend the extra cents to get the 'good stuff' cause it's all outrageous, but sometimes I splurg. I don't need a double blind test to determine what I am noticing about my car. What you are asking me to do is pretend that the difference isn't there. I'm asking you to take a ride with me and determine for yourself.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain. :)
rw
I was going to make that same comment, but I didn't want to try and correct someone who is always right.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Sometimes I put the better gas in my car instead of the cheap stuff. My car runs smoother, better acceleration, etc etc. Some people think it's all the same junk. I don't always spend the extra cents to get the 'good stuff' cause it's all outrageous, but sometimes I splurg. I don't need a double blind test to determine what I am noticing about my car. What you are asking me to do is pretend that the difference isn't there. I'm asking you to take a ride with me and determine for yourself.
Where are we going? Should a bring a hat? Will I need a jacket? Are we going up the coast? Oh, I do love a nice ride up the coast. Can we go up the coast?
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Howza bout...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Where are we going? Should a bring a hat? Will I need a jacket? Are we going up the coast? Oh, I do love a nice ride up the coast. Can we go up the coast?
We take my "Jag-year" (Jaguar for those who don't get this joke) around the bends of Highway 1??? Oh wait...I don't have a "Jag-year". Grrrr.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
We take my "Jag-year" (Jaguar for those who don't get this joke) around the bends of Highway 1??? Oh wait...I don't have a "Jag-year". Grrrr.
Tease
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However...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Fair comments, but not necessarily relevant to others who are not as technology averse. I think it is a fair statement that most folks choose to have cell phones, wireless telephones, microwave ovens, digital cable boxes, flat panel TVs with switching power supplies, etc., etc. Heck even the new washer and dryer -- excuse me drying cabinet, has digital controls. I'm certainly not going to unplug all these various devices every time I wish to listen to music.
I'm convinced there is not a case of mass hysteria. It is a case of differing systems in differing environments with differing levels of performance expectation.
rw
...as I recall there is the proximty effect...that the strength and therefore the effect RFI produces, drops off as the distance to its' source increases...I forget if it's linear, inversely proportional or logarithmic but since that is the case, and anything that produces such emissions is governed by FCC guidelines, the digital controls on your dryer, in the laundry room is far enough away from your audio gear to preclude any airborne contamination (unless you think all this wiring has hung you out to dry)...Which leaves us with artifacts in the AC lines...How would better shielding of a AC cord protect from that? It's coming from within, you would need some sort of filter and drain to accomplish anything; foil layers and braided mesh, sandwiched between all the Teflon in the world isn't going to do that.
jimHJJ(...things are getting convoluted...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
How would better shielding of a AC cord protect from that? It's coming from within, you would need some sort of filter and drain to accomplish anything; foil layers and braided mesh, sandwiched between all the Teflon in the world isn't going to do that.
It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...things are getting convoluted.
I don't see it that way.
rw
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In theory yes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain. :)
rw
...but in practice perhaps not...after powering down to swap line cords how could you be certain that on re-application of power the amp has reached stasis and is now level matched? Particularly with tubes? Then you run into the problem of time...with any passage of time between samples, how could you be sure of an actual valid and discernable sonic difference?
jimHJJ(...that's why there are ABX tests...)
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didn't ya know...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords.
I don't see it that way.
rw
he likes to put words in your mouth....or in this case....text in your posts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
....but the other side insists on going through the mathematical aspects........
Math??? What math:confused:
Cheers, John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
Math??? What math:confused:
Cheers, John
That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)
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thanks for filling in...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)
Thanks Gmichael for explaining...I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the debates I seem to be in at the moment. lol.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...but in practice perhaps not...after powering down to swap line cords how could you be certain that on re-application of power the amp has reached stasis and is now level matched? Particularly with tubes?
These are valid concerns since I find that most components do undergo some sonic changes during the first hour of powerup. Which is why I don't find much value in audio-cowboy quick ABX comparisons. Especially those with added cables and boxes assumed to be completely perfect. Which leads to my preference for...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
Then you run into the problem of time...with any passage of time between samples, how could you be sure of an actual valid and discernable sonic difference?
...long term evaluations despite the objections voiced. I have been nurtured over a long period of time in an environment where I was constantly hearing new gear. Of all sorts. Many brands which I had never even heard of before. I worked at an audio store and have professional audio reviewer friends. I was taught how and what to listen for by very experienced mentors. Experience in music and extended exposure to high performance audio. I truly believe practice helps. While one's mood, the phase of the moon, the degree of inebriation, circadian cycles all vary, I find that using well known program material in well known systems provides the greatest insight to subtle changes. YMMV.
One of my greatest joys is hearing something new in a piece of music that I've listened to for decades. Sometimes that comes in big chunks - like a trip in 2003 to hear a reviewer's spectacular system where my point of reference was completely changed. Or, most commonly where the change I detect is merely a nuance.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)
That's not math..:sleep:
Magnetic fields for a single conductor fall off as 1/r.
Magnetic fields for a conductor pair fall off as 1/r<SUP>2</SUP>.
The field of a line cord is such a field. It is a dipole. Do not consider the fields of a line cord as radiated propagation of energy, consider it in terms of the static fields generated.
A twisted conductor line cord has a helically oriented magnetic field. If you integrate that field over multiple twist pitches, you find that it integrates to zero every 360 degrees. Chances are, the IEC and wall outlet are setup to NOT zero out.
The trapped flux within a two cord ground loop scenario DOES NOT diminish with distance, it continues to integrate upward. This is because one leg of the loop is buried within the source cord, the other leg is the intercept cord. Net result, the closer the intercept cord is to the source cord, the more flux travels outside the loop and therefore does not contribute to the loop intercept, reducing haversine derived harmonics induced within the loop.
Far field, rf does not significantly reduce, due to the fact that the distance from the point origion is far away.
The intensity of a planar wave is proportional to the equidistant surface from the point of origion. For a long conductor, that surface is a cylinder, and the surface increases in proportion to the radius, intensity varies as 1/r. For a very short radiator, the surface is a sphere, and the intensity drops off as 1/r<SUP>2</SUP>
Cheers, John
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Interesting thread
I had a feeling when I asked my original question this thread would get intense.Not my intention but I find the varying opinions very interesting and I do try and take them all in objectively.I've certainly heard enough points on the pro-cable argument to get my attention.I'll replace that Amp power cord as per my original plans.It's peanuts compared to what my system cost.
I don't have the technical expertise of many here, but I do have a good system and a pretty critical ear.I won't make any positive claims with this switch unless I hear them.However if I do hear a difference those $200 Diamondbacks for my CDP will be a given.I can't financially justify any major component upgrades for quite a while so this small stuff is a fun way to tweak your system.
Very relative to this discussion is also the cost of the cord regardless of whether or not you believe in the premise.A $100 TO $200 Cord upgrade is not a tragic situation if little or no difference is heard.(I would imagine some retailers will also take the cord back if you are unhappy with it)I've seen these cords go for insane prices and yes for most of us that is almost impossible to justify.
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You consider...
...looking for clarification putting words in someone's mouth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS
...he likes to put words in your mouth....or in this case....text in your posts...
In your case it could only improve things...but be that as it may...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords...
As I said, clarification...If you filter your AC to reduce or eliminate all those wire-borne digital nasties that's one thing...but again, given the limited radiation fields and that proximity effect, the need for shielding of power cords seems a moot point...
I've seen many a notice in medical offices prohibiting the use of cell phones, but never one for Gameboys, CDPs, PDAs, calculators et al...why? Cell phones are tranceivers, designed to do their thing at some distance from the nearest cell site, going through most walls and ceilings etc., their output measured in watts...The other stuff isn't and has a finite limit as to their unwanted output as governed by the FCC. So while it may be troublesome, I can't see why simply following the old guideline of never running power and signal wires in proximity of, or parallel to, each other isn't sufficient in most cases.
If we're taliking about processor hash coming from each component so equipped, I'll respond has I have done numerous times...sounds like bad design to me...If your processor is affecting other components, what is it doing to the signal passing through the component that contains it? A good design will not allow its' processor to impinge on the audio signal..which means internal shielding or otherwise separating the audio signal from the control signals.
As has been pointed out numerous times in the past, picking up the overt things like radio stations, CB radio and the like are usually due to the lengths and configuration of the wiring involved and there are cases where shielding may lessen or eliminate those problems...sometimes even re-positioning a component or rerouting a wire will do the trick...
As to widening or depening a soundstage or lowering a noise floor...I don't think so...
To my way of thinking, if you really get down'n'dirty and consider all of the various why's and wherefores, most of the arguments in support of these tweeks are like a bucket with a hole in it...
jimHJJ(...it may seem to hold water, but winds up empty by the time you drag it home...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
I can't see why simply following the old guideline of never running power and signal wires in proximity of, or parallel to, each other isn't sufficient in most cases.
Sufficient for what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
If we're taliking about processor hash coming from each component so equipped...
I'm referring to switching power supply hash. Easily seen on scopes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
To my way of thinking, if you really get down'n'dirty and consider all of the various why's and wherefores, most of the arguments in support of these tweeks are like a bucket with a hole in it...
That is your viewpoint. I don't use arguments as the basis for mine. I find listening far more valuable. :)
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
That's not math..:sleep:
Magnetic fields for a single conductor fall off as 1/r.
Magnetic fields for a conductor pair fall off as 1/r<SUP>2</SUP>.
The field of a line cord is such a field. It is a dipole. Do not consider the fields of a line cord as radiated propagation of energy, consider it in terms of the static fields generated.
A twisted conductor line cord has a helically oriented magnetic field. If you integrate that field over multiple twist pitches, you find that it integrates to zero every 360 degrees. Chances are, the IEC and wall outlet are setup to NOT zero out.
The trapped flux within a two cord ground loop scenario DOES NOT diminish with distance, it continues to integrate upward. This is because one leg of the loop is buried within the source cord, the other leg is the intercept cord. Net result, the closer the intercept cord is to the source cord, the more flux travels outside the loop and therefore does not contribute to the loop intercept, reducing haversine derived harmonics induced within the loop.
Far field, rf does not significantly reduce, due to the fact that the distance from the point origion is far away.
The intensity of a planar wave is proportional to the equidistant surface from the point of origion. For a long conductor, that surface is a cylinder, and the surface increases in proportion to the radius, intensity varies as 1/r. For a very short radiator, the surface is a sphere, and the intensity drops off as 1/r<SUP>2</SUP>
Cheers, John
My Calculus teachers always told me, "If there's more than one way to get to the answer, then the simplest way is the correct one."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
My Calculus teachers always told me, "If there's more than one way to get to the answer, then the simplest way is the correct one."
Sheesh, I think all my calculus teachers are dead..:(
Oversimplification of a complex problem rarely works in the long run. Hawksford fell into that trap when he analyzed the bejeesus out of the skin depth approximation equations, instead of consideration of the actual problem at hand.
Line cord radiation falls into that boat. If you simplify the problem to just radiation of energy, you consider only the methods to stop radiating TEM waves, or the reception of them. Unfortunately, that simplification does nothing for the prevention of the local magnetic fields and their actions. They are entirely different beasts in how they setup, their nearfield intensity, how to stop them from being splayed out, and how to make external wires insensitive to them.
That is why I posted the relations for both local e/m fields as well as radiated ones.
THEY ARE DIFFERENT BEASTS, AND MUST BE DEALT WITH AS SUCH...
RFI is stopped by shields surrounding a linecord, 60 hz magfield is not.
A shielded twisted pair is ineffective against the haversine draw within the pair, both for transmittal and reception.
TEM wave reception drops down in effect as the receiver gets farther away, whereas ground loop issues involving the line cord increase the farther away the wire gets..
Oversimplification loses much when ill considered.
Cheers, John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
Sheesh, I think all my calculus teachers are dead..:(
Oversimplification of a complex problem rarely works in the long run. Hawksford fell into that trap when he analyzed the bejeesus out of the skin depth approximation equations, instead of consideration of the actual problem at hand.
Line cord radiation falls into that boat. If you simplify the problem to just radiation of energy, you consider only the methods to stop radiating TEM waves, or the reception of them. Unfortunately, that simplification does nothing for the prevention of the local magnetic fields and their actions. They are entirely different beasts in how they setup, their nearfield intensity, how to stop them from being splayed out, and how to make external wires insensitive to them.
That is why I posted the relations for both local e/m fields as well as radiated ones.
THEY ARE DIFFERENT BEASTS, AND MUST BE DEALT WITH AS SUCH...
RFI is stopped by shields surrounding a linecord, 60 hz magfield is not.
A shielded twisted pair is ineffective against the haversine draw within the pair, both for transmittal and reception.
TEM wave reception drops down in effect as the receiver gets farther away, whereas ground loop issues involving the line cord increase the farther away the wire gets..
Oversimplification loses much when ill considered.
Cheers, John
You do know that I'm just playing with you right?
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Ah...er...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
(1)Sufficient for what?
(2)I'm referring to switching power supply hash. Easily seen on scopes.
(3)That is your viewpoint. I don't use arguments as the basis for mine. I find listening far more valuable. :)
rw
...(1)Obviating the need for extree-speshul power cords...
...(2)What is that power supply doing to the signal passing through the component which contains said switching power supply?
...(3)So you use no supportive arguments other than strictly the results of trial-and-error experimentation as a result of long-term listening? Seems a bit bass-ackwards to me...We've got a fix before we actually identify a problem? If the IEC connectors weren't used as a manufacturing expedient, there would be no "cottage-industry" spawned...no one would have looked to AC cords as a "problem" if a simple swap wasn't so...so...expedient...Sounds like drug company logic..."Gee boss, we came across this compound that happens to make folks pee less...maybe we can take this plain old everyday annoyance, call it a disease, give it a name and make oodles of cash...we can advertise it, and tell folks to ask their doctors about it and then give the doctors pre-printed 'scrip pads..." or maybe you could drink a little less than the governmet recommended gallon and certainly avoid drinking copious amounts before bed...really ain't no problem but they sure can convince everyone there is...but, as is my penchant, I digress
Geez I coulda' sworn there was mention made of some specific sources of all this sonic hash and why they need to be quelled...the argument being (a) these things exist, (b) they come via the mains from washers and dryers and...(c) they come from adjacent components, and (d) they come from all these post-yuppie-riffic electronic annoyances that festoon the average homestead...
And we all know what my counter-arguments are...
jimHJJ(...Sooooo...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
You do know that I'm just playing with you right?
No..it did not occur to me..ya got me big time..hook, line, sinker, boat, ocean, planet..arrghgh
Sigh,
Cheers, john aka dunderhead..
ps..gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...(1)Obviating the need for extree-speshul power cords...
How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...(2)What is that power supply doing to the signal passing through the component which contains said switching power supply?
I really don't care what is happening to the "signal" going through my washing machine or microwave oven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...(3)So you use no supportive arguments other than strictly the results of trial-and-error experimentation as a result of long-term listening?
The "argument" remains the audibility of untrapped RFI that gets amplified downstream.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
Seems a bit bass-ackwards to me...We've got a fix before we actually identify a problem?
Why on earth do you make that assumption?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
If the IEC connectors weren't used as a manufacturing expedient, there would be no "cottage-industry" spawned...no one would have looked to AC cords as a "problem" if a simple swap wasn't so...so...expedient...
Nonsense. Power conditioning products have been available for decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...but, as is my penchant, I digress
Yep, I'll have to agree with you here. :)
rw
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Eclipse?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
...gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...
...there was an eclipse? Where? D@mn, I like them things, where was I?
jimHJJ(...probably not enough light to see it...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
No..it did not occur to me..ya got me big time..hook, line, sinker, boat, ocean, planet..arrghgh
Sigh,
Cheers, john aka dunderhead..
ps..gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...
So sorry. I'm a baaaaaaaaaad poster.
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