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  1. #1
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    Question Need help choosing speaker wire

    Just got my new system and placed the speakers where I want them, so the next step is connecting them with speaker cable. I am running an Integra DTR-6.6 A/V receiver and Paradigm Studio 20 fronts and Paradigm atom rears with a sub. The distance from the reciever to the speakers all vary in length and it is not all the same. I plan on making the wire the same length, regardless of the distance to the speaker. My question is, what brand to use? I've heard good things about Audioquest and Kimber wire. I looked at the Monstercable CROMB cable. I will probably be running 14 guage wire due to the distances. Is Mostercabel really a rip off or overrated? Right now I am leaning towards the Audioquest but I am open to suggestions. Thanks

  2. #2
    LMB
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    I switched all My Monster cable to Audioquest and noticed an improvement
    Also, check out Acoustic Zen

  3. #3
    Jason Monette
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    Quote Originally Posted by unchingono
    Just got my new system and placed the speakers where I want them, so the next step is connecting them with speaker cable. I am running an Integra DTR-6.6 A/V receiver and Paradigm Studio 20 fronts and Paradigm atom rears with a sub. The distance from the reciever to the speakers all vary in length and it is not all the same. I plan on making the wire the same length, regardless of the distance to the speaker. My question is, what brand to use? I've heard good things about Audioquest and Kimber wire. I looked at the Monstercable CROMB cable. I will probably be running 14 guage wire due to the distances. Is Mostercabel really a rip off or overrated? Right now I am leaning towards the Audioquest but I am open to suggestions. Thanks

    Monster Cable is way to pricy for the quality of components they use to make the cable. You are paying more for the way the cable looks and the name then you are the quality of the cable.

  4. #4
    nightflier
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    If you're on a budget, you might want to check some of the smaller cable companies. I've had great service from HeartlandCables.com, but there are a lot of others. If you feel adventurous, you could try Mapleshade's Double Helix, definitely an improvement over Monster.

  5. #5
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    Yes stay away from monster cable.I use Kimber 4TC and am very happy with it,very clean and clear with great extension.It is not necessary to make all your cables the same length.Come up with a budget first and go shopping,quality cable can add up,but its worth it.
    thanks
    bill

  6. #6
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    no need to make them all the same length...

  7. #7
    Linear Guy
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    Wire thickness a bit less important.

    14 ga. is suitable for for long distances but may not be required in your application. Lots of good recommendations have been given. Some of the wires mentioned are thinner than 14 ga. ( the mapleshade wire is a killer and is probably 20ga. at best. ). IMO a good inexpensive all arounder is the Audioquest type 4, It is a double solid wire construction that combines for about 16 ga, I think.

  8. #8
    nightflier
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    "no need to make them all the same length..."

    Actually, they should be the same length. And if you're going to go for more than 20', you'll definitely want to stay above 14ga.

    I've been playing with a few Kimber models lately and I have to say, they are a great bang-for-the-buck, especially if you buy second hand.

  9. #9
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    I would choose a cable with a soft insulation around the conductors. This will allow the electrons to get a good rest when not playing music, resulting in a less fatigued sound. Also unplug the cables for a few hours everyday and let them roam the house so they don't sound constrained. You should also rub a good quality moisturiser into them twice daily for a smooth skin effect.

    Hope this helps.

  10. #10
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffle
    I would choose a cable with a soft insulation around the conductors. This will allow the electrons to get a good rest when not playing music, resulting in a less fatigued sound. Also unplug the cables for a few hours everyday and let them roam the house so they don't sound constrained. You should also rub a good quality moisturiser into them twice daily for a smooth skin effect.

    Hope this helps.
    Why don't you say something useful? This is a hobby and sometimes scientific logic is not applied.If you don't believe in the merit of different cables so be it, you're entiteld to that.
    The question was not what to do with the cables, but advice on which one to buy.
    So what is your recomendation?

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Why don't you say something useful? This is a hobby and sometimes scientific logic is not applied.If you don't believe in the merit of different cables so be it, you're entiteld to that.
    The question was not what to do with the cables, but advice on which one to buy.
    So what is your recomendation?

    Peace

    Bernd
    Sorry mate, was just having a joke around. Probably 12 AWG zip. I didn't mean to imply that different cables don't have their merits, they actually do, I just doubt that after taking into account the hardware used to record the audio, the amp and speakers used, human hearing, etc that there could be any difference. The frequencies that will be affected by using zip over a more exotic cable are way too high to hear.

  12. #12
    dell'azzurro silenzio paulo m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffle
    Sorry mate, was just having a joke around. Probably 12 AWG zip. I didn't mean to imply that different cables don't have their merits, they actually do, I just doubt that after taking into account the hardware used to record the audio, the amp and speakers used, human hearing, etc that there could be any difference. The frequencies that will be affected by using zip over a more exotic cable are way too high to hear.
    If:
    1. You never tasted caviar, or
    2. You can't tell the difference between caviar and fish, or
    3. You can't tell the difference between Beluga or american caviar,


    then don't attempt to convince anyone that caviar tastes bad or that there aren't any differences between them, even if the weight, viscosity and translucency are all the same.

    //p

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulo m
    If:
    1. You never tasted caviar, or
    2. You can't tell the difference between caviar and fish, or
    3. You can't tell the difference between Beluga or american caviar,


    then don't attempt to convince anyone that caviar tastes bad or that there aren't any differences between them, even if the weight, viscosity and translucency are all the same.

    //p
    Tests on caviar and fish would probably find conclusive differences. I'm not an aquatic scientist though, so don't take my word for it. I am, however, an electronic engineer and as such am qualified to design very high quality audio circuitry. I do this for a living. For an electronic engineer, the flow of electrons through conductors is as simple as spotting the difference between caviar and fish is to an aquatic scientist. I can absolutely assure you, there will be no discernable difference between 12 AWG zip cord and more exotic cables.

    Don't just take my word for it. You can also take the word of another engineer (Gene DellaSala). You can read his article on this site.

    If there was anyone whose word you should be able to take as being conclusive, surely it should be the people who design the gear!

  14. #14
    dell'azzurro silenzio paulo m's Avatar
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    Words of others... or ears of our own?

    Quote Originally Posted by buffle
    Tests on caviar and fish would probably find conclusive differences. I'm not an aquatic scientist though, so don't take my word for it. I am, however, an electronic engineer and as such am qualified to design very high quality audio circuitry. I do this for a living. For an electronic engineer, the flow of electrons through conductors is as simple as spotting the difference between caviar and fish is to an aquatic scientist. I can absolutely assure you, there will be no discernable difference between 12 AWG zip cord and more exotic cables.

    Don't just take my word for it. You can also take the word of another engineer (Gene DellaSala). You can read his article on this site.

    If there was anyone whose word you should be able to take as being conclusive, surely it should be the people who design the gear!
    That's the thing: My pair of ears and the gray matter between them are enough to very clearly hear differences between types of cables. Granted, I never compared cables against zip cord, but I very clearly noticed differences between 'exotic' cables, so my assertion remains intact. I don't care whether they look cool or are expensive--in my recent upgrade I selected a set of cables through plenty of experimentation and based purely on what pleased my ears. I should perhaps stress the fact that the differences were not subtle, so it's not like I got two sets with similar performance and ended up choosing the least expensive--the more expensive cable just didn't 'work' (dense passages were mushy, stage had less depth), constrasting very evidently with the cheaper cables. You might very rightly say that there was no synergy between the expensive cables and the components I was testing. Or you could say that the cables weren't burned-in (not the case, they were).

    I know very well how electrons flow through conductors; although I am not an EE, I am a theoretical physicist. As such I also happen to know the dangers of reductionist approaches and how transient the 'Truth' is. You are welcome to employ them as you see fit and gives you comfort; just don't expect me (or other people) to treat it as gospel.

    //p

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffle
    The frequencies that will be affected by using zip over a more exotic cable are way too high to hear.
    Does that mean that you believe that bandwidth is the only audible factor involved with cables used in audio systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by buffle
    I can absolutely assure you, there will be no discernable difference between 12 AWG zip cord and more exotic cables.
    I find theory useful only when validated with experience. My experience does not support your assertion.

    rw

  16. #16
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffle
    I would choose a cable with a soft insulation around the conductors. This will allow the electrons to get a good rest when not playing music, resulting in a less fatigued sound. Also unplug the cables for a few hours everyday and let them roam the house so they don't sound constrained. You should also rub a good quality moisturiser into them twice daily for a smooth skin effect.

    Hope this helps.

  17. #17
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    Your post shows exactly why experience is critical!

    Quote Originally Posted by buffle
    Tests on caviar and fish would probably find conclusive differences. I'm not an aquatic scientist though, so don't take my word for it. I am, however, an electronic engineer and as such am qualified to design very high quality audio circuitry. I do this for a living. For an electronic engineer, the flow of electrons through conductors is as simple as spotting the difference between caviar and fish is to an aquatic scientist. I can absolutely assure you, there will be no discernable difference between 12 AWG zip cord and more exotic cables.

    Don't just take my word for it. You can also take the word of another engineer (Gene DellaSala). You can read his article on this site.

    If there was anyone whose word you should be able to take as being conclusive, surely it should be the people who design the gear!
    I would hope that no one takes your advice on faith... or Gene DellaSalla's... or mine... or the people who design the gear - because all four may be at odds with each other.

    Your assurance that no one can discern a difference between zip cord and high definition cable simply does not hold, in my experience. Mine may not hold up in yours. And the people that design the gear (Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost) would certainly take issue with your assurance. Mr Della Salla's experiences are equally fine... for him!

    I sincerely hope that no one searching for answers takes anyones advice as being conclusive except their own experience. The best advice I've ever heard is that when creating experiences about things of a sonic nature, it's best to simply listen.

  18. #18
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Despite all the rhetoric...

    ...any difference is just that and nothing more...very subjective AND anecdotal in nature...

    Wire is passive...it can "boost" one segment of the frequency spectrum only by attenuating another...it's all relative...

    ...wire is wire...

    jimHJJ(...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence, which is subject to a vast array of potential biases, that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge....;-p)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  19. #19
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    I too am a BS-EE. When I came on the scene with my brand new sheepskin I was convinced that all wire and cable sounded the same. All that stuff I learned in school told me that measurments showed no differences in properly constructed/working wires. NOT!!!! Now that I have spent many years listening and not measuring I know that my original convictions were not necessarily true. In my own rig I can hear differences between wires/cables that I cannot explain with measurements. Try some Kimber 8TC against some 12 gauge zip cord. I don't know if all systems will allow you to hear the difference but mine sure does. One of my audio-buddies started with Kimber 4TC and later bought another pair of the same length to make double runs. He and I compared both the single and double runs against 12 Gauge zip cord and in every instance the Kimber sounded better. The double runs of 4TC were the best. I can only say listen for yourself and if you hear a difference there is. Those who say you are imagining are welcome to their opinions. Ignore them, go with your own ears and what you hear. You are the one who has to live with your system. Your ears are the only ones you have to please. The people at Audioholics believe all competently made cables sound alike. They also believe all competently made amplifiers sound alike. I disagree with them on both counts. The length of cables going to a pair of speakers should be the same.
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  20. #20
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    I prefer "wire is wire"

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...any difference is just that and nothing more...very subjective AND anecdotal in nature...

    Wire is passive...it can "boost" one segment of the frequency spectrum only by attenuating another...it's all relative...

    ...wire is wire...

    jimHJJ(...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence, which is subject to a vast array of potential biases, that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge....;-p)
    Wire IS wire. Wire is not an amp, a CDP, speakers or a tonearm... or a tone control .

    Wire is wire.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I too am a BS-EE. When I came on the scene with my brand new sheepskin I was convinced that all wire and cable sounded the same. All that stuff I learned in school told me that measurments showed no differences in properly constructed/working wires. NOT!!!! Now that I have spent many years listening and not measuring I know that my original convictions were not necessarily true. In my own rig I can hear differences between wires/cables that I cannot explain with measurements. Try some Kimber 8TC against some 12 gauge zip cord. I don't know if all systems will allow you to hear the difference but mine sure does. One of my audio-buddies started with Kimber 4TC and later bought another pair of the same length to make double runs. He and I compared both the single and double runs against 12 Gauge zip cord and in every instance the Kimber sounded better. The double runs of 4TC were the best. I can only say listen for yourself and if you hear a difference there is. Those who say you are imagining are welcome to their opinions. Ignore them, go with your own ears and what you hear. You are the one who has to live with your system. Your ears are the only ones you have to please. The people at Audioholics believe all competently made cables sound alike. They also believe all competently made amplifiers sound alike. I disagree with them on both counts. The length of cables going to a pair of speakers should be the same.
    Perhaps the people at Audioholics mean that all cables and amps sound the same to them. That is very believable. Many of them sound the same to me as well... and many of them do not.

    "Listen for yourself" is the best advice I've encountered.

  22. #22
    nightflier
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    If it's possible to straddle the fence on this w/o getting flamed, here's what I have found:

    - Wire is wire when the equipment is not super hi-fi. Most of the disgreements on this board could be resolved if we all had the same high-end gear and could talk about changing out just one wire. This is unlikely, but I'm open to doing this if anyone else want to. As any scientist (BS-EE & Physicists included) will tell you, there is no experiment w/o a baseline.

    - Some people hear better than others. My hearing is bad (too many concerts). But my eyesight is very good. I can see a difference between generic video cables and higher end stuff when looking at test screens and sample video clips on a large tv.

    - Construction has a lot to do with it too. I opened up a Monster Cable IC last weekend to find that the soldering was loose. I'm not good with a soldering iron but Monster has a lifetime warrantee, so off they went. I've been knocking Monster for a while largely because of this cable, let's see if that's still the case when I get it back.

    - Better speakers are the most audible upgrade one can make so it would follow that the speaker cable is also more important than an IC, for example. I can hear slight differences between zip cord and better cables. For example, I can't explain why Mapleshade's Double Helix sounds different. Perhaps not better, but different. With such a small gauge on these cables, I also wonder if it's necessary to have a larger cable when you're running just 8-12'. That said, the larger cables will probably stand up to my constant swapping, so if you're going to pay for something, it should be construction.

    - Silver sounds different. Don't know why. It just does. It's not better, but different. And at the prices that silver cables go for, I think this is all about preference.

    - 15 to 20 years ago, there was no hoopla about cables at all. People were just as good at critical listening as they are now. Lots of people will harp about how technology has improved and cable manufacturers will cry foul, but the fact is the published measurements of components and speakers from then are about the same today. Go figure.

    My 2 cents: if you're not going to be doing thorough testing of different cables, buy a well constructed pair from any decent mom & pop shop.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Based on what was felt to be "over the top" prices on speaker cables that get the good reviews, my friend and I expended some fair effort in an attempt to discover the differences between various cables. We wanted to learn if there was a process, or if indeed the differences were mostly "magic".

    We spent a lot of time on the internet, where it turns out many technical, engineering and scientific types have reported a lot of test results. Digesting the meat of the tests and discarding the hyperbole and magic, we built a number of speaker cable samples. We broke them in (40 hours) and then listened closely with a pretty good system.

    Here is what they said on the internet and what our ears confirmed.
    1. Gauge is very important, bigger is just plain better. We ended up with 9.5 Gauge on the woofer, 11.5 on the mids (Yes, bi wired was cleaner overall).
    2. Metalurgy is important, it matters less if its silver or copper but get high purity.
    3. Use quality connectors, we liked the rhodium plated lugs best..
    4. For speaker cable low inductance is important. A ribbon style (wires side by side) of mechanical assembly is easy tor make at home and has low inductance.
    5. For the tweeter Teflon and silver seemed best, the woofer and midrange didn't seem to be affected very much by silver, but Teflon did help on the mid, I don'r recall it being noticable on the woofer.

    Now go to a audiophile do it yourself supplier (my personal favorite is Michael Percy), buy some raw wire and lugs (or banannas if you must) solder the ends on and make your own cables. If you buy very good raw materials you will discover that the cable houses are not ripping you off on prices. You can do better by supplying your own labor but the difference is smaller than you might think.

    In our opinion silver was best for the tweeter, the woofer and midrange didn't care much. The problem is, only millionares can afford heavy gauge ultra pure silver wire. We solved it by tri-wiring the drivers and putting the crossover at the amplifier end. With this technique, a much smaller gauge of silver wire for the tweeter worked fine.

  24. #24
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    OK Hermanv, did you make any measurements?
    All the objectivists will say you think you heard what you heard. Try posting your subjective results at audioholics and people like mtrycrafts will beat you to death with their mantra, "If you can't measure it it doesn't exist".
    I myself go with my ears. I don't care what a wire or cable measures. If it sounds better to me then it is. I like vinyl and continue to buy and play it. I also use tube amps and a tube preamp. They just sound better to my ears.
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  25. #25
    Linear Guy
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    I love cable posts.

    The opriginal poster was looking for some advice on decent cables without breaking the bank. His equipment sounds very good but not exotic. I think he was looking for speaker wire in the 100 dollar range and he got good suggestions. He also got advice on why cables don't matter. Frankly I'm getting tired of the "cables don't matter" posts. There are many choices in cables and I think most audio hobbyists try a bunch out until they find the most appealing one. Some probably don't look too hard and some don't care. But I would bet very few think cables are inconsequential. Every catagory of audio gear has hideously priced comonents of questionable value. The fact that this has happeded to cable seems to offend people more than it should.

    I have been able to hear some differences in quality and texture of the reproduced sound from different cables ever since I got well made gear. I am not cursed with good hearing, rather I'm glad to be able to hear these things in my middle age. OK , have a good whack.

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