Need help choosing speaker wire

[musicoverall]

The opriginal poster was looking for some advice on decent cables without breaking the bank. His equipment sounds very good but not exotic. I think he was looking for speaker wire in the 100 dollar range and he got good suggestions. He also got advice on why cables don't matter. Frankly I'm getting tired of the "cables don't matter" posts. There are many choices in cables and I think most audio hobbyists try a bunch out until they find the most appealing one. Some probably don't look too hard and some don't care. But I would bet very few think cables are inconsequential. Every catagory of audio gear has hideously priced comonents of questionable value. The fact that this has happeded to cable seems to offend people more than it should.

I have been able to hear some differences in quality and texture of the reproduced sound from different cables ever since I got well made gear. I am not cursed with good hearing, rather I'm glad to be able to hear these things in my middle age. OK , have a good whack.

...too much "can't" and "doesn't" and "won't" in their vocabulary and not enough possibilities, not enough first hand experience. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

I don't think "good hearing" has nearly as much to do with picking out cable sonics as good listening does.

[Resident Loser]

...too much "can't" and "doesn't" and "won't" in their vocabulary and not enough possibilities, not enough first hand experience. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

I don't think "good hearing" has nearly as much to do with picking out cable sonics as good listening does.

...perhaps the ubiquitous they realize the folly of it all and would rather spend time listening to the music or appreciate how each different artist might interpret a particular piece, rather than "seriously listen" to a piece of wire...I, for one, am not particularly interested in a length of wire's effect on the apparent soundstage of a flea-ph@rt or any of the other so-called inner details...the software is far too compromised for nearly all else but the loudspeakers and their particular environment to be of any consequence in the sound perceived...

Quite frankly, I'm quite weary of those who espouse the notion that wire is a magic bullet of sorts...

jimHJJ(...so I'd guess we're even...)

[teledynepost]

Let me see, if I had to guess, I'd say moving your listening location/ or speakers 4 inches in any direction would produce measurable differences whereas paying all this money for wires does nothing whatsoever.

[musicoverall]

...perhaps the ubiquitous they realize the folly of it all and would rather spend time listening to the music or appreciate how each different artist might interpret a particular piece, rather than "seriously listen" to a piece of wire...I, for one, am not particularly interested in a length of wire's effect on the apparent soundstage of a flea-ph@rt or any of the other so-called inner details...the software is far too compromised for nearly all else but the loudspeakers and their particular environment to be of any consequence in the sound perceived...

Quite frankly, I'm quite weary of those who espouse the notion that wire is a magic bullet of sorts...

jimHJJ(...so I'd guess we're even...)

I appreciate your POV. However, my guide for audio gear is that it must "serve the music". Whatever makes it sound more real will be reviewed/auditioned - whatever squeezes the last ounce of realism. I could (and do, in my second system) live with less but, when there's more available, why shortchange the music? The reeeeelly nice part about audio gear is that once the system is in place, it virtually disappears, and it better ables me to hear what I believe is the artists intent with his/her interpretation of a particular piece. And as someone who listens to live music at every opportunity, soundstaging and imaging are critical. Those are the two key elements in helping to create a live experience in the home... live small combo jazz, at any rate.

No "magic bullet" - I'm certain that there are measurements that would explain the sonic differences in cables. There's no free lunch. What measurements there are is beyond me, although JNeutron appears to have a handle on a possibility or two. I'm certainly looking forward to the results of his research.

[musicoverall]

Let me see, if I had to guess, I'd say moving your listening location/ or speakers 4 inches in any direction would produce measurable differences whereas paying all this money for wires does nothing whatsoever.

Half correct. That's better than a lot of guesses!

Why guess in the first place - why not try some high definition cables and hear for yourself? Since most places will let you borrow with a full refund upon return, what do you have to lose besides the guesswork?

[hermanv]

OK Hermanv, did you make any measurements?
All the objectivists will say you think you heard what you heard. Try posting your subjective results at audioholics and people like mtrycrafts will beat you to death with their mantra, "If you can't measure it it doesn't exist".
I myself go with my ears. I don't care what a wire or cable measures. If it sounds better to me then it is. I like vinyl and continue to buy and play it. I also use tube amps and a tube preamp. They just sound better to my ears.

I do worry about the safety of the general public when these objectivists drive their cars. If they don't carry any photometric equipment with them, how can they be sure if a traffic light is red or green?

Me, I have little trouble distinguising a red light from a green one or good sound from bad. Of course I can not prove I never saw a green light that was only green because I so badly wanted it to be green.

I have given up trying to convince these people that red is red or green is green, it's not worth the effort. There are plenty of measurements available on the internet for cable effects, all they have to do is go look, but if the gate is closed, data can't get in.

[Resident Loser]

No "magic bullet" - I'm certain that there are measurements that would explain the sonic differences in cables. There's no free lunch. What measurements there are is beyond me, although JNeutron appears to have a handle on a possibility or two. I'm certainly looking forward to the results of his research.

...insofar as I see it at least...there may be a perfect wire, one that will transfer the signal with all the possible negative variables minimized and all it's specs in perfect alignment...unfortunately that is the teeniest, tiniest cog, on the smallest gear in the machine...as I said:

...the software is far too compromised for nearly all else but the loudspeakers and their particular environment to be of any consequence in the sound perceived...

And I meant it...This post even applies to the other thread re: live music.

Indulge me if you would be so kind...plug a guitar into your stereo...play a few notes, maybe even a chord...and it doesn't have to be an arms-flailing-windmill-jumping-whirlygig-Pete-Townsend-power-chord...chances are pretty good your tweeter is fried and your mid/woofer isn't doing too swell either...perhaps your 'stat panels are just arcing like heck, but be that as it may...

Now, plug that guitar into a tape machine, record it and play it back through your stereo...just music, no damage...Why? Any recording medium removes the immediacy, the attack, the dynamics of the instrument...same thing for miked acoustic instruments...much like adding noise to succeeding generations of tape, each link in the recording process removes the "reality" factor making it that much more distant...

Multi-track recordings take things in a whole 'nother direction...With them you can have upwards of 48 (or sometimes more) individual mono sources...there are none of the required spatial aspects retained due to the fact that it's mono, further exacerbated by the fact that the feed, whether it's direct-boxed, contact-miked, close-miked or otherwise, creates a skewed sonic perspective that the ear does not experience in nature...there is no accompanying soundfield, it must be created using artificial reverberation, which while it can be convincing at times, really has none of the sonic clues that our ears experience in a live setting...there is no multi-instrument "bleed", in fact most (if not all) studios go to great pains to eliminate this bleed, since it limits the amount of control one has over the individual instruments and the final product. Our ears however, hear, and more importantly recognize, the sonic whole, warts and all, and not pre-sanitized, individual components assembled in a lab.

Much like the fact that binaural recordings don't sound right when reproduced through loudspeakers and conventional recordings sound like the musicians are playing in your head when heard through 'phones, they are products of the type of mics and the miking techniques used...even in the simplest of settings, loss or tampering with location cues or instrument dynamics affects the overall sonic character.

While it may be possible that one could compile components that could bring certain aspects of certain recordings closer to reality, I see it more as serendipity...that a particular, minimally-futzed-with signal has managed to travel from it's source, through the entire process with it's amplitude, phase characteristics, dynamics and localization cues intact and emerged unscathed. However, if one changes one single parameter in the equation, the result will also be subject to change.

Given all the potential variables in the software, do all instruments, on all recordings, playing in the same key sound equally realistic? Does a trumpet, or guitar or piano sound equally convincing, regardless of the recording, or do we have specific instances in which this______(insert instrument here) sounds like it's actually in the room? Does one amp, or pre-amp, or CDP/DAC, or wire reveal those "inner details" on all recordings or only on a select few?

jimHJJ(...is it all happenstance?...)

[Resident Loser]

I do worry about the safety of the general public when these objectivists drive their cars. If they don't carry any photometric equipment with them, how can they be sure if a traffic light is red or green?

Me, I have little trouble distinguising a red light from a green one or good sound from bad. Of course I can not prove I never saw a green light that was only green because I so badly wanted it to be green.

I have given up trying to convince these people that red is red or green is green, it's not worth the effort. There are plenty of measurements available on the internet for cable effects, all they have to do is go look, but if the gate is closed, data can't get in.

...called the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic of 1968 that standardized traffic signals internationally with red on top/green on the bottom...even color-blind objectivists have no problem knowing when to stop...

jimHJJ(...pity others don't...)

[hermanv]

I think most people would agree that the act of recording removes some hard to define immediacy even when recording an instument that's already electronic like an electric guitar.

The fun part is that when this recording chain is measured and measured carefully, whatever is missing seems to go pretty much undected by the instruments.

The "if you can't measue it, it doesn't exist" camp rarely ventures into this disciusion. Actually nothing is really missing but the recorded copy is also not quite exact, almost every possible dimension of the sound has been limited, truncated, distorted, streched or added to by some minute amount. This is enough to convince the ear that this sound is not live.

[hermanv]

...called the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic of 1968 that standardized traffic signals internationally with red on top/green on the bottom...even color-blind objectivists have no problem knowing when to stop...

jimHJJ(...pity others don't...)

Actually they're not red and green anyway, they are red/orange and blue/green specifically for color blind people to be able to discern the differenece. In many places traffic lights are mounted sidways, like under the elevated in big cities.

[JoeE SP9]

Hey Resident Loser!

This thread needs some livening up!

A little while back I had a rather long exchange with Sir Terrance about what I call multiple mono recordings. My contention was/is that in order to produce a recording with a real soundstage all the musicians and singers must be present real time, live, together in one room. Minimal miking should be used to make the recording and overdubbing is not allowed. I used Jacintha, Here's To Ben as one example. He suggested that recording in this manner was too hard and expensive. I don't know if that means it's too hard for the "musicians" or the engineers. His approach to studio recording seems to be the norm. So, it's no wonder so many modern recordings are so sterile and flat. Those recordings are super clean and you can hear everything from fret noise to loose piano keys. What they don't have is any sense of real musicians playing in a real space. Maybe miking and recording as used in Kind Of Blue or Way Out West should be required study for studio engineers. Almost any of us can make a recording that sounds more real and live than commercial recordings merely by using two microphones. I am almost convinced that multitracking has caused the death of soundstage and space in recordings. We can discuss wire and cable qualities until we are kind of blue in the face. No wire or cable can replace what is not there in the recording. My not so humble apologies if I have strayed from the subject.

[musicoverall]

RL:

NO QUESTION that cables are the teeniest cog in a large wheel. Everything but the speaker and room acoustics pales in comparison to the actual recording. That makes cables less important, not unimportant.

Interesting question about whether certain components do their "magic" on all recordings or only some. I'd say only some, as some recordings are so bad that there is no redemption for them. I would have to limit my discussion to superbly recorded music which, sadly, is not that prevalent. When I tested my cables, it was using 3 discs of very well recorded music that I also knew intimately.

The bottom line for me is that while I can't improve what goes into a recording, I certainly can improve what comes out into my room. As for "live" music, my system does pretty well; however, it is not good enough. Each upgrade to the system brings me a half step closer - only 382 upgrades left to get there! Seriously speaking, these upgrades enhance my enjoyment of the presentation somewhat - enough to make it worthwhile or the upgrade doesn't happen.

[Resident Loser]

In many places traffic lights are mounted sidways, like under the elevated in big cities.

...the red is on the left...except in countries that drive on the left...

jimHJJ(...so, like other things, lights is lights, generally speaking...)

[Resident Loser]

A little while back I had a rather long exchange with Sir Terrance about what I call multiple mono recordings.

...welcome to the club...I believe jneutron has a similar mindset to a great degree...we are a small, quiet group...

We can discuss wire and cable qualities until we are kind of blue in the face. No wire or cable can replace what is not there in the recording.

Agreed...

jimHJJ(...1000%...)

[bubslewis]

I too am a BS-EE. When I came on the scene with my brand new sheepskin I was convinced that all wire and cable sounded the same. All that stuff I learned in school told me that measurments showed no differences in properly constructed/working wires. NOT!!!! Now that I have spent many years listening and not measuring I know that my original convictions were not necessarily true. In my own rig I can hear differences between wires/cables that I cannot explain with measurements. Try some Kimber 8TC against some 12 gauge zip cord. I don't know if all systems will allow you to hear the difference but mine sure does. One of my audio-buddies started with Kimber 4TC and later bought another pair of the same length to make double runs. He and I compared both the single and double runs against 12 Gauge zip cord and in every instance the Kimber sounded better. The double runs of 4TC were the best. I can only say listen for yourself and if you hear a difference there is. Those who say you are imagining are welcome to their opinions. Ignore them, go with your own ears and what you hear. You are the one who has to live with your system. Your ears are the only ones you have to please. The people at Audioholics believe all competently made cables sound alike. They also believe all competently made amplifiers sound alike. I disagree with them on both counts. The length of cables going to a pair of speakers should be the same.

By "double runs" I assume you mean running 2 sets of wires from the same speaker to the same speaker terminals on the amp/receiver? Would double running of 12 guage zip cord result in possible improvement over only running a single of 12 guage zip? ( I have a ton of various gauges of zip cord lying around).

thanks,
Bill

[JoeE SP9]

Give the double runs a shot. You have nothing to lose.

[hifitommy]

my quick budget rec is AQ type 4. mine came gratis with the purchase of my adcom 555II. at first, i tried the monster that was in the system, the after a while, the T4. it first sounded like less bass but as time wore on, it wasnt less, but better. less bass overhang smearing the low notes. now i could discern deeper bass with better detail as the unnaturally fat sound had been subtracted.
in all instances, including my current kimber 8tc the lengths are equal even though the distance from the amp is six feet for the right channel.
monster is essentially well made zip cord, not a bad thing per se but maybe not ideal for sound. i would be interested in trying the home depot trick, perhaps better than monster for less cash. pretty too.
as for being tone controls, that is not the issue nor method to be used. imaging, transient integrity, spatiality, and detail at all frequencies vary from cable to cable whether speaker or interconnect wire.

i would not release my cables from their connections because the cats would then cart them off to different parts of the house so CAPTIVE they must remain.

i arrived at my cable conclusions by experience, not written hyperbole. some reviewers and engineers lose their way, hence e overwritten reviews and groups within organizations like the AES where its measurements uber alles. there are some things for which measurements have not yet been devised. wire LS wire, most sound different in some way from another. choosing one is either based on low price or perceived difference in sound.

one other factor: the more transparent the electronics, the more you are likely to hear the differences in cabling. they are like glass; good,clean, clear,flat, and uniform in thickness, glass can pass an image better as the quality increases. so it is with sound.

and oh, JoeE, tell me about the paradigm crossovers. i would like to save my s3/5s from the deep bass transients if possible.

[JoeE SP9]

Below is the information on the units I have.

Paradigm X-30 Subwoofer control units.

Back panel
2 low level inputs for connection from left and right pre-outs
3 pair of high pass low-level outputs.120, 80 and 50Hz
1 pair Subwoofer outputs
connect left sub out only to get summed mono

Front panel
1 continuously variable phase control for subwoofer output 0 to +180 Deg.
1 continuously variable control for subwoofer cutoff Fq 35 to 150Hz
1 continuously variable level control for subwoofer level

a wall wart power supply is included

Paradigm also makes a X-20 for high level applications.
Is this enough information?
Hope this helps.

[hifitommy]

i found one on videogon and its on its way to me. now the s3/5s can take it easy.

i just saw this quote of yours:

Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
We can discuss wire and cable qualities until we are kind of blue in the face. No wire or cable can replace what is not there in the recording.

yer right about that, but a good wire will bring you more of what IS there. kinda like having an ARC preamp.

[JoeE SP9]

Hi hifitommy, I already have the ARC preamp. I will probably never get rid of it. I wish I had never sold the SP3 I used to have. The SP9 is much better but the SP3 was my first high end preamp. I recently bought some Kimber Monocle XL to replace my double runs of 8TC. I am breaking it in as I write this.

[JoeE SP9]

i found one on videogon and its on its way to me. now the s3/5s can take it easy.

i just saw this quote of yours:

Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
We can discuss wire and cable qualities until we are kind of blue in the face. No wire or cable can replace what is not there in the recording.

yer right about that, but a good wire will bring you more of what IS there. kinda like having an ARC preamp.

Hi!
I was wondering if you had received your Paradigm X30? I am curious about your impressions concerning its sound. I think we agree that there are differences in sound wires/cables and components produce. I'd like to know what you think of the unit.
If anyone else has any experience with active electronic crossovers please speak up. Florian, your crossover does not apply. It was/is purpose built for Apoogee's.

Should I start another thread with this?

[emack27]

This program http://www.bcae1.com/ will tell you everthing you need to know about speaker wire gauges and lengths, etc...etc.
In the scroll down menu on the right. Goto "Wire" (#16) then scroll down to the first graph/calculator and click HERE.
It's for car electronics but as far as speaker wire goes there is no difference.