The Great Cable Debate -- Reloaded

[mtrycraft]

Static as in unchanging tones. Averaged over time at that. You might have one amp that generates instantaneous notch or TIM distortions that gets evened out as to not exist using such critieria. The Crown ICCHH-150A preamp looks REAL good on paper, but sounds like fingernails on chalkboard.

rw

Finger nail on chalboard? How was this established? Unreliable listening? That is the only possibility, nothing else.

[pctower]

My "unreliable" listening experience with the Crown pre-amp and the DC-300 was back in the late 70's when I owned both and my sole source of information from the audio press was your recently deceased idol ("everything sounds the same") Julian Hirsh.

As much as Julian tried to hoodwink us all into believing that any ole' mass-marketed Japanese inport would do just fine so long as it had enough bells, whistles and flashing lights and that all amps really did sound just the same, I simply couldn't stand the dry, brittle a-musical sound of the the Crown electronics over time and decided to search out for something that would create an enjoyable and "musical" listening experience.

I have no idea what replaced the Crowns, but even to this day I remember why I got rid of them. Fingernails on a chalkboard is a very apt description of what led me to unload them and to once and for all stop reading Julian Hirsch. Maybe the high-end press that I later began reading was full of junk science, but unlike Hirsch, it introduced me to gear that allowed me to achieve the listening enjoyment I was seeking but that remained elussive as long as I believed Hirsch was a good source of advice.

Actually, I should have learned my lesson about Hirsch when I bought a Tanberg tapedeck based on his conclusion that he could not distinguish a recording on that deck from the original. When I brought the deck home I was shocked at how much of a difference there was and how lacking the Tandberg was. Despite numerous experiements with different tapes and many trips back to the dealer, the stark difference between original and tape (which the esteemed Julian Hirsch couldn't detect) never did vanish.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

This subject has been discussed many times and I’ve shared this before but for those unfamiliar… In the last four years I’ve had numerous conversations with two designers on the subject of internal wiring: Craig Uthus, designer/President of Moth Audio and Alan Yun, designer/President of Silverline Audio.

Alan Yun is a designer of loudspeakers, ranging in price from $1,500>$35,000; he also manufactures his own line of speaker cables and interconnects. In conversations with the distributor that sold me the Silverline Sonatinas I learned that Alan uses the same wire in his cables that he also uses to internally wire his speakers. Included with my speaker purchase were two complimentary 10' runs of Alan's speaker cables and his interconnect. A couple of years later I contacted Mr. Yun about his new Sonatina II as I was curious if the new upgrades could be incorporated into my speaker. We discussed the modifications in the new speaker and eventually the internal wiring of his speakers. As a speaker designer he felt the internal wire was a valid consideration, finding good results with the wire selected. We parted company on the choice of conductor; he prefers copper, myself silver. And so he encouraged me to experiment if I was so inclined. We also discussed other upgrades, such as the copper Edison-Price binding posts. I came away with the distinct impression that he felt the collection of these ancillary elements do affect the signature of his finished product. In this respect our POV was quite similar.

Craig Uthus designs single-ended triode amps that have a retro appeal and a respect for modern applications of the SET philosophy. He also designs single driver speaker systems. The circumstances involving my connection to Moth Audio was quite different from the purchase of the Silverline. Foremost, the amp I purchased was not a stock product like the Silverline; instead it was a custom project that Craig elected to build for me. We discussed many of the internal parts; resistors, caps, potentiometer, secondary winding of the OPT as well as internal signal wire as possible upgrades. I told him I wanted to use pure silver as signal wire and contacted various suppliers / manufacturers before selecting Bob Crump. Bob had sent me products to demo in the past and was happy to supply the same wire he uses to hookup his 10k “Blow Torch” pre-amp for my project. Aside from amplification components he also designs cables and power cords. Bob's wire consists of a separate run of small gauge [22awg] solid silver wire [signal] and a silver-plated copper Wonder Wire [current]. He provided me very specific instructions along with the wire for Moth, including the wires directionality. In the course of our conversations I’d asked Craig about the captive power cords in his earlier designs. His response gave me the impression that the I.E.C. facility in the new designs was based more on customer requests than a personal endorsement of that product type.

Three months later the amp finally arrived and I was tickled pink about the build quality, looks, performance, heck it even came in a wooden shipping crate. It's cool as hell and the heart and soul of my system. Then some months removed I receive an email from the wire supplier, Bob Crump, informing me he thought my amp was "wired backwards". At least it appears so from the photo I posted in a review. So I contacted Craig at Moth about the allegation. Well, he was not the least receptive to my inquiry. He told me "it was wired correctly". That regardless of my wishes or the instructions given by Mr. Crump, he felt it simply wouldn't matter what wire was used. Strangely, this was never mentioned in our earlier conversations. I respect his professional opinion but didn't appreciate that he compromised our agreement on the specifics of the build process, knowing that the customization was a key element of the purchase. I admitted to him that I had no idea which of the two configurations would be "best" but that I respected Bob's reputation and experience on the subject and wanted it corrected.

Craig did not offer to "fix it" or compensate me and we've not spoken since. And honestly, I wasn't about to ship my amp back cross-country for such a simple procedure, even if I'd discovered it the day it arrived. It was more the matter of his "professional integrity" that pissed me off. I eventually had the amp wired correctly and in all honesty the difference was so slight [least my initial impression] that I forgot about the entire matter. I will say I do feel better about getting it "to spec". I realize I would have been better served if I had tested both configurations myself [as well as all the other custom passive parts] but the intent wasn’t to build the amp myself or get involved with a DIY project. Instead, I wanted to take an existing design and fine-tune it, which Craig was willing to do. So there is my limited experience with two manufacturers who have a different POV on the internal wiring of their components. One who considers the internal wire in his speakers to have an effect and another who doesn’t believe the difference [if any] is audible.

Pictured is the amp as delivered from the Moth Audio.

MikE

[skeptic]

My "unreliable" listening experience with the Crown pre-amp and the DC-300 was back in the late 70's when I owned both and my sole source of information from the audio press was your recently deceased idol ("everything sounds the same") Julian Hirsh.

As much as Julian tried to hoodwink us all into believing that any ole' mass-marketed Japanese inport would do just fine so long as it had enough bells, whistles and flashing lights and that all amps really did sound just the same,

Actually, I should have learned my lesson about Hirsch when I bought a Tanberg tapedeck based on his conclusion that he could not distinguish a recording on that deck from the original.

Simply as a point of clarification, the Crown amplifier and preamplifier you referred to were manufactured in Indiana.

It is unfortunate that you didn't buy a Crown tape deck. You would have preferred it to the Tandberg by a wide margin.

[pctower]

After I posted, I realized my ranting and raving would be misleading. I was mixing two separate subjects - my own personal opinions of Julian and my experience with Crown electronics.

I did know about the point of manufacturing for Crown and not only did I own one Crown tape deck, but actually two. The BIGGEST mistake I ever made was selling both. I regretted it almost immediately and have never forgiven myself. They were magnificent.

In addition, I owned a pair of Crown's large speakers with RTR electrostatic panels on top and a large woofer in a separate enclosure below. I don't remember the model number, but selling that pair of speakers was the SECOND BIGGEST mistake I ever made.

[E-Stat]

Finger nail on chalboard? How was this established? Unreliable listening? That is the only possibility, nothing else.

That Crown preamp was the posterchild for TIM distortion. It was the stereotypical (pun intended) example of negative feedback gone wild. Take a mediocre opamp such as the lowly LM301 and overload the hell out of its open loop high frequency response and this is what you get. The PAT-4 was another dreadful design of that era.

"Fingernails on chaulkboard" is merely my characterization of the audible results of gross amounts of TIM distortion. Describe the distortion however you prefer. High frequencies are rendered hard, thin, compressed, edgy, and are completely lacking in perceived air. A well recorded triangle or bell contains no ambience or decay.

While it was immediately detected by the hearing of music listeners, it was much later "established" with appropriate testing once TIM was identified by Mati Otala, et. al. That would be the other possibility.

The Crown dealer where I bought a D-150 hated the ICCHH and advised that I buy a HK Citation 11 instead. We listened to both and I readily agreed with him that the Crown handled high frequencies very poorly. It did, however, have excellent measured THD performance.

Speaking of the Crown tape units, I sure lusted after the big CX-824. Alas, I could only afford a Sony TC-850 at the time (I was 17 in 1974).

rw