Great Article on Cables

[jneutron]

Do you have any specific information as to Teflon's unsuitability for use as wire insulation (especially since it is widely used)?

Here is but one example of Teflon insulated power cord:

Belden 82803

rw

No, I have nothing that would consider teflon as unsuitable in normal applications..I cannot use the stuff, but that is a radiation induced oxygen outgassing thing in liquid helium, and as far as I know, not too many audio applications have to worry about that..but I could be wrong..

I am aware of this:
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20040520.php

They are now recommending removal of all teflon wires that are not used, rather than leaving in place..

In reviewing bruce's post,

You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords as you mentioned

I do believe what he was referring to was the use of too small a guage conductor, or too thin an insulation (low voltage), both of which mean the insulation isn't necessarily up to the task required of a power cord, and as such, would violate NEC.

But, perhaps he can elaborate more..

It would be pleasant, however, to see a reasonably nice discussion here on the topic..a change I would welcome....

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

No, I have nothing that would consider teflon as unsuitable in normal applications.

Fine. Then we can dispense with all the theoretical speculations that do not apply.

They are now recommending removal of all teflon wires that are not used, rather than leaving in place..

All cabling will eventually burn. The key is removing all unused cable. FEP, however, is more fire resistant than either PE or PVC.

It would be pleasant, however, to see a reasonably nice discussion here on the topic..a change I would welcome....

Indeed. I think it would be far more productive to discuss real products and issues rather than wild assed guesses about imaginary ones. All power cables I use are UL approved.

Leaving the imaginary and returning to the real world, do you believe using a 9 gauge power cord one meter in length that is UL/CL3 listed for use with an amplifier rated at 10 amps will pose a fire hazard? The cable above it is 16 gauge by comparison.



rw

[jneutron]

Fine. Then we can dispense with all the theoretical speculations that do not apply.

Please explain why the statement"You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords" is theoretical.. Some of the power cord product I've seen on the forums certainly does not meet reasonable safety standards..I believe this is what bruce was referring to..

Indeed. I think it would be far more productive to discuss real products and issues rather than wild assed guesses about imaginary ones. All power cables I use are UL approved.rw

Hmmm..I have reviewed all my posts, and have not identified what I would consider a "wild ass guess"..please elaborate.

Leaving the imaginary and returning to the real world, do you believe using a 9 gauge power cord one meter in length that is UL/CL3 listed for use with an amplifier rated at 10 amps will pose a fire hazard? The cable above it is 16 gauge by comparison.
rw

I believe the term "your friends" means, umm, your friends...I did not notice an accusation that you personally are using cords above their rating..As far as I can recall, I do not believe I have made accusational statements of the type that would warrant the somewhat "strong" response you just provided..I am somewhat at a loss to understand your demeanor...

As to your power cord...ul approved, very cool indeed..ducks all in a row...nice..

Your segue from bruce's "power limited" to a 9AWG was interesting, although it was a diversion from the actual statement..

I can design a #12 awg power cord which will outperform your 9 guage beast, in your system...in fact, in all systems. However, the solution has not been tested to UL standards. I had gone so far as to inquire on NRE and production costing for the wire, as well as initial queries into the costing of said UL approval...

Needless to say, I am not inclined to stick my legal neck out for a line cord solution that others could mess up and hurt themselves with.

Please re-visit all my previous posts, so that you may realize that I have not attacked you..

Cheers, John

PS...I woulda gone with a different color...purple over a green rug???geeeeeze...

[E-Stat]

Please explain why the statement"You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords" is theoretical..

Because I had specifically referred to Belden 19364 and 83803 cords which are appropriate for use as power cords in every respect. All the specs and UL/CES certifications can quickly be found on the Belden website.

Hmmm..I have reviewed all my posts, and have not identified what I would consider a "wild ass guess"..please elaborate.

That comment was not at all directed at you.

I believe the term "your friends" means, umm, your friends...I did not notice an accusation that you personally are using cords above their rating.

This rant by Bruce is wholly without merit with regards to the two cords I referenced (or others that I use):

"1) Violating the National Electric Code(and maybe several state and local ones) for using a wire with insufficient insulation characteristics.
2) Likely not to be covered by their homeowners insurance in the event of a fire.
3) Putting their safety and the safety of their family at risk for the previously mentioned reasons."

I can design a #12 awg power cord which will outperform your 9 guage beast, in your system...in fact, in all systems. However, the solution has not been tested to UL standards. I had gone so far as to inquire on NRE and production costing for the wire, as well as initial queries into the costing of said UL approval...

While I really have no idea which particular aspect(s) of the Harmonic Technology design are responsible for its performance, I suspect it has more to do with the use of 6N pure OFC silver conductors for the hot and neutral, OFC copper for the earth and multiple layers of UL/CL-3 shielding than the gauge alone. It is eerily quiet and thus detailed.

Please re-visit all my previous posts, so that you may realize that I have not attacked you..

Ditto as above regarding WAGs. Others, however, attack that which they don't understand or that which they simply make up.

PS...I woulda gone with a different color...purple over a green rug???geeeeeze...

Yeah, yeah I didn't have a choice. My other JPS Labs cables are all black. Now that the house is going on nine years old, I'll be replacing that carpet soon anyway. I'm going with a gray theme there having painted the walls and covered (some of) my bass traps in gray cloth. I've gotta bribe my wife to finish the stitchery in the remaining traps.

rw

[thepogue]

...I got a very close friend of mine who been into audio for over 30 years...he's also blind ('68 Nam) and I turst is ears...well...as strange as it sound...more than I trust my ears...when he listens to a peice of gear, speaker, LP, cables...(etc) he has none of the hype that sighted persons deal with....he doesn't read the hype-rag....he's not blown away (or even swayed) by looks and he is as honest and as reliable as the day is long...he sold me his Monster M2.2's and has straight wires all the way around in his system...he swears he can hear the differnece in cables......to be honest...I just plug and play...I love the 2.2, and really loved the used price to be honest I just don't hear that much difference for one cable to the next...but I've never done a ture blue A B...in fact I never A B'ed at all...so I really can say...but this very wise friend...has a saying "you can see my friend, and I cannot....but I can HEAR...and you cannot". I tend to beleive him.

Peace, Pogue



[QUOTE=jjjanzen]



A friend of mine is an incredible musician with a terrific ear, and also has his PhD in physics. His recommendation: zip cord.

[QUOTE]

[jneutron]

Because I had specifically referred to Belden 19364 and 83803 cords which are appropriate for use as power cords in every respect. All the specs and UL/CES certifications can quickly be found on the Belden website. rw

Ah...ok..what bruce said was referring to the use of unsafe cords, a #14 by design, is not within that category with a 15 amp outlet.. You both are talking past each other..

That comment was not at all directed at you.
rw

Ah, ok...My apologies for thinking incorrectly.

This rant by Bruce is wholly without merit with regards to the two cords I referenced (or others that I use):
rw

He was referring to others with your beliefs, using undersized cords...you know of several out there that shouldn't even be used to power a nightlight..

While I really have no idea which particular aspect(s) of the Harmonic Technology design are responsible for its performance, I suspect it has more to do with the use of 6N pure OFC silver conductors for the hot and neutral, OFC copper for the earth and multiple layers of UL/CL-3 shielding than the gauge alone. It is eerily quiet and thus detailed.rw

I'm confident the purity of the silver is of no merit, nor the purity of the copper. And multiple layers of any copper, silver, or aluminum shielding of any form, is useless for inducted noise..

The design is a curious mixture of extreme overkill with conductor sizing, the silly use of various metal schemes, and just tossing lots of shield at the problem without understanding what they are actually doing engineering wise..It is trivial to actually do it right, but that understanding is beyond them..

BTW, was the cord evaluated as meeting UL requirements after all those layers of shield and insulation were applied? I had an application that totally fried a bunch of #0 size conductor even though only 25 amps was in each cable..the big boss had a tech put zippertube over the bundle of wires while I was on vaca, and the whole kaboodle overheated and melted..

I'm glad that you are happy with the cord, as that is really what counts..and, since I do not provide an alternate, far superior product for you to use, you audio guys really have no choice in the matter....detailing of how to properly build a line cord would impact the aftermarket cord industry in a bad way, I also have no desire to do such..I am sensitive to people earning a living..

Others, however, attack that which they don't understand or that which they simply make up.rw

Geeze, so many on both sides of the fence fall into that category....

My statement on civility was just a general one, hoping that the two of you could simply calm down and stop talking past one another..

Yeah, yeah I didn't have a choice. My other JPS Labs cables are all black. Now that the house is going on nine years old, I'll be replacing that carpet soon anyway. I'm going with a gray theme there having painted the walls and covered (some of) my bass traps in gray cloth. I've gotta bribe my wife to finish the stitchery in the remaining traps. rw

Ya gotta love how some of our choices are made..you are lucky in that your significant other puts up with your audio fanaticism...I also am lucky in that regard..

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

Ah...ok..what bruce said was referring to the use of unsafe cords, a #14 by design, is not within that category with a 15 amp outlet.. You both are talking past each other..

What do you mean by "with a 15 amp outlet"? The spec sheet for 19364 says:

ELECTRICAL CHARACTERISTICS :
Max. Operating Voltage - UL: 300 V RMS
Dielectric Withstand Voltage: 2000 V AC Applied For 1 Min.
Max. Recommended Current: 18 Amps per conductor @ 25 C, 13 Amps per conductor @ 25 C over 50 ft.

Did your amp come with a 12 gauge cord? Most in my experience use an 18 or a 16.

He was referring to others with your beliefs, using undersized cords...you know of several out there that shouldn't even be used to power a nightlight..

So he quotes me on using larger than stock cords and rants about using smaller ones?

The design is a curious mixture of extreme overkill with conductor sizing, the silly use of various metal schemes, and just tossing lots of shield at the problem without understanding what they are actually doing engineering wise..It is trivial to actually do it right, but that understanding is beyond them.

The proof is in the pudding.

BTW, was the cord evaluated as meeting UL requirements after all those layers of shield and insulation were applied?

These folks know what they are doing.

...detailing of how to properly build a line cord would impact the aftermarket cord industry in a bad way, I also have no desire to do such..I am sensitive to people earning a living.

Ridiculous. People build a better moustrap every day. Build it and they will come.

Ya gotta love how some of our choices are made..you are lucky in that your significant other puts up with your audio fanaticism...I also am lucky in that regard..

True, but knew what she was getting into. Here's a pic circa '85 of my first house before we married.



You'll notice the fancy window treatments! Actually that pic was taken right after I moved in. The tapestry behind the sofa was hung on the back wall as damping. We later finished the basement and moved the monoliths there. When I built my current house, I specifically changed the original basement design to accommodate an even larger dedicated space.

rw

[jneutron]

What do you mean by "with a 15 amp outlet"? The spec sheet for 19364 says:

ELECTRICAL CHARACTERISTICS :
Max. Operating Voltage - UL: 300 V RMS
Dielectric Withstand Voltage: 2000 V AC Applied For 1 Min.
Max. Recommended Current: 18 Amps per conductor @ 25 C, 13 Amps per conductor @ 25 C over 50 ft.

Did your amp come with a 12 gauge cord? Most in my experience use an 18 or a 16.
rw

What I meant by "with a 15 amp outlet", is that a #14 wire, which the belden 19364 is specified as having, is the same conductor guage as the #14 wire within the wall, by code, for 15 amp service... Since a #14-3 is code within the walls for 15 amperes, it is certainly acceptable for use with a 15 amp outlet..

I was going to gently admonish you for your lack of reading skills, but alas, I see that I did not punctuate correctly...I said"Ah...ok..what bruce said was referring to the use of unsafe cords, a #14 by design, is not within that category with a 15 amp outlet.. You both are talking past each other.. " What I meant was ....""unsafe cords. (end of sentence, new thought). A #14 by design, is not in that (unsafe cord) category..

Geeze, estat..can't you read minds??? or, at least, see past incorrect punctuation??

Originally Posted by jneutron The design is a curious mixture of extreme overkill with conductor sizing, the silly use of various metal schemes, and just tossing lots of shield at the problem without understanding what they are actually doing engineering wise..It is trivial to actually do it right, but that understanding is beyond them.

The proof is in the pudding.rw

As I said, they threw the book at the problem, without actually understanding the problem..

Quote:

Originally Posted by jneutron BTW, was the cord evaluated as meeting UL requirements after all those layers of shield and insulation were applied?

These folks know what they are doing.rw

I did not ask you if they knew what they are doing..From their product, I am well aware of what they know and what they don't know..the fact that they needed silver, multiple shields, and #9 wire, shows that they only marginally know what they are doing..and certainly do not understand what the line cord issues for high end audio really are.

I asked you if they evaluated their end product to UL requirements. This needed only a simple yes or no..the statement"they know what they are doing" is not an answer to the question..but rather, a diversion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jneutron ...detailing of how to properly build a line cord would impact the aftermarket cord industry in a bad way, I also have no desire to do such..I am sensitive to people earning a living.

Ridiculous. People build a better moustrap every day. Build it and they will come.

You did not understand my intent...my fault..

I can easily design a #12, #10, or #8 guage product that blows all the aftermarket line cords out of the water, yours included...and I can do it for about 2 to 4 dollars a foot...

But the cost of that product, for aftermarket vendors, is the loss of any perceived advantages. The small cable manu's I've corresponded with, I've have no issues with them, and hope they do well..Imagine that big speaker wire company with the stadium named after it (please, no names), being able to sell 25 or 50 dollar line cords that work better than the boutique cords...flood the market with better performing product, patents and all, and slammin everybody who tries to duplicate a trivial design? Yah, everybody'd just love that.

I will not be a part of that..some things are better left unsaid..30 years ago, I'da come in blastin without regard for the people who make cords for a living..my morals and values have changed over the decades.

RE: your living situ: you seem to be having fun...this is a good thing..

Me too..

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

alas, I see that I did not punctuate correctly.

No problemo.

As I said, they threw the book at the problem, without actually understanding the problem..

I can easily design a #12, #10, or #8 guage product that blows all the aftermarket line cords out of the water, yours included...and I can do it for about 2 to 4 dollars a foot...

I'm perfectly willing to throw away some money on your bold claim. Make me a four foot prototype and I'll get it auditioned by critical ears I know. If your claim is true, I guarantee you significant press by an individual who has had the ear of audio enthusiasts for over thirty years.

Yah, everybody'd just love that.

Every audio enthusiast sure would!

I'm certainly not one who wants to spend more on something than necessary to get equivalency. That's why I have drive/ride Hondas. The perceived panache of high-priced items like Rolex watches and Ferraris requires that the general public recognizes said. There is zero "prestige" value to what 99.9% of the population isn't aware of.

rw

[jneutron]

I'm perfectly willing to throw away some money on your bold claim. Make me a four foot prototype and I'll get it auditioned by critical ears I know. If your claim is true, I guarantee you significant press by an individual who has had the ear of audio enthusiasts for over thirty years. rw

Honestly, I'm not sure I want any press. I enjoy what I do, and like my simple life..I truly enjoy what I do at the lab, and hoopla in the press has no value or interest to the people who ultimately pay my bills.

I've debated internally, this very issue for years. For now, I'm just in it for the learning and discussions..had any vendors expressed any interest in learning or collaborating, I'da taken them up..they know so little about e/m theory (course, most people don't..)

Turning what is lucrative to many aftermarket manufacturers, into a nickel and dime jellybean coupla dollars per piece profit....has too high a price IMHO.

I'm certainly not one who wants to spend more on something than necessary to get equivalency. rw

Me either. But there's more to life than just undercutting all the PC vendors with a superior product at dirt cheap prices..that's a rat race I do not know that I wish to enter into, nor do I wish to do that to others who do it for a living..

Daily walks along the piers and beach, watching the sunsets hand in hand, is more along the lines of what I prefer now..

Should my employment situation change for the worse..that is a different story.

Cheers, John

[thepogue]

Let me see if I got this straight...you can make better cables for short money...that will smoke anything out there...but you like your job so much that you don't wanna fuss with it...and beside...none of the dumbarses who make cables to date haven't contacted you (or shown any interest) in getting your formula...so you'll just keep this to yourself?...now that's not very nice is it?...I mean the common man should have the best for less don't you think?...come one...hook a brudda up?...slap somefinn together over the weekend and send them to me...I'll send ya 20 bucks...and I'll be your cheerleader!...In fact cuz you don't want all the fuss and publicity...I'll tell everybody I made them...I don' like my job that much!...I'll take a hit for the team...cool?




This ones really spinnin now!!

Pogue

[jneutron]

Let me see if I got this straight...you can make better cables for short money...that will smoke anything out there...but you like your job so much that you don't wanna fuss with it...and beside...none of the dumbarses who make cables to date haven't contacted you (or shown any interest) in getting your formula...so you'll just keep this to yourself?...now that's not very nice is it?...I mean the common man should have the best for less don't you think?...come one...hook a brudda up?...slap somefinn together over the weekend and send them to me...I'll send ya 20 bucks...and I'll be your cheerleader!...In fact cuz you don't want all the fuss and publicity...I'll tell everybody I made them...I don' like my job that much!...I'll take a hit for the team...cool?




This ones really spinnin now!!

Pogue

Assume for a moment, the following..(humor me for a minute.)

1. I understand via e/m theory, why a line cord makes a difference..it doesn't involve either power quality, or PSRR. The basis is entirely the amp's fault..any amp which can be affected by the line cord, is designed without consideration of the problem..

2. I design a cord which gets around the cord contribution to this error, far better than any other cord on the market..

3. Everyone who tries this cord finds it is better..

4..Given the low cost of the materials, it is not picked up by a boutique cord manu...no profit..

5. All who make one DIY, do so using my solution..

6. Thousands are made, perhaps tens of thousands...absolutely NONE of them done with my control over the quality of the assembly.

7. One, two, maybe ten of them are done poorly..leading to an incident, fire maybe..

Who is responsible?..me? No thanks..sure, lots of people could make it capable of surviving a direct hit by lightning..but it's the ones who can't that scare me.

Anyone who posts a power cord solution using a wire construct which is NOT UL approved, in a manner which is not UL approved, posts stupidly, and puts themselves into a position of liability..I try not to be that dumb (sometimes I succeed)..

The best thing that could be done, is have the solution setup as an OEM product. In fact, the better option is not IEC, but hard wired into the amp..

The best and total solution is :

1. Hard wire with my cord.

2. Gut the amp primary wires, with a real wiring harness put in.

3. Gut all the low impedance supply rail and ground runs, and replace with a real wiring harness, up to and including the runs to the output binding posts.

4. Gut the input wiring run, and replace it with a real wiring harness.

The key phrase here being: real wiring harness.. All the amp product I've viewed to date internally, is just schlock..e/m speaking of course...I marvel at some of the craftsmanship and circuit design, but they do not, and I repeat, DO NOT understand magnetics, high slew rate currents, and low impedance circuitry..randomness rules the day..

The only legitimate way forward really, would be to publish..But even IEEE and AES have their problems...

Cheers, John

[Resident Loser]

...dumbness...are you saying replace all the PCB "common access" power points with dedicated point-to-point wiring?

jimHJJ(...or am I just a complete boob?...)

[jneutron]

...dumbness...are you saying replace all the PCB "common access" power points with dedicated point-to-point wiring?

jimHJJ(...or am I just a complete boob?...)

Any wire within the amplifier which creates a magnetic field external to that wire, or is capable of receiving an external magnetic field, is a culprit. A star ground, while good practice, can allow the non current carrying grounds to intercept mag field from the current carrying ones..that needs to be fixed..

The most significant ones to broadcast are the output rail/output lines, the supply feeds for that output (all the low z stuff), the primary and secondary xfmr runs, the physical size of the supply caps, the power switch wires.

The significant receivers are the input run, and the feedback path.

Run the amp into a full load at 50% power, sine at 5 to 10 Khz..use a magnetic probe, and look for that signal in the amp box, outside the amp box, and (bet you didn't think of this), inside the source component near the output jacks back to the pc board.

If you can find magnetic signal, tis broken, fix it..

When you cannot find any stray field..you are done..

(good luck around those damn supply caps...)

Cheers, John

Oh, forgot this: It's not the IR drop, so that's not what I meant by replacing the wiring harnesses..it's the fact that the traces generate a dipole field..

What is needed is for the amp (and wire) designers to understand that it is not a case of tossing silver, or large wires, or teflon, or cryo, or single crystal yada yada at the problem, it's about engineering the solution.

[Resident Loser]

...I'd guess all the power wiring should be as segregated as practicable from the signal traces (or wiring) and not run parallel to them at any point...good practice without AND within.

Certainly makes sense..I have an old Fender Bandmaster guitar amp that is somewhat susceptible to hum if you move the interenal wiring a bit too far from it's intended position...and it's all "breadboard" style, point-to-point wiring and all...I'd hazard a guess they arrived at their wiring layout pretty much through trial and error in an effort to optimize s/n and hummmmm. Forty years old and still cookin'!

jimHJJ(...and I do like the idea of the hardwired power cord...)

[E-Stat]

The best thing that could be done, is have the solution setup as an OEM product. In fact, the better option is not IEC, but hard wired into the amp..

The best and total solution is :

1. Hard wire with my cord.

2. Gut the amp primary wires, with a real wiring harness put in.

3. Gut all the low impedance supply rail and ground runs, and replace with a real wiring harness, up to and including the runs to the output binding posts.

4. Gut the input wiring run, and replace it with a real wiring harness.

The key phrase here being: real wiring harness.. All the amp product I've viewed to date internally, is just schlock..e/m speaking of course...I marvel at some of the craftsmanship and circuit design, but they do not, and I repeat, DO NOT understand magnetics, high slew rate currents, and low impedance circuitry..randomness rules the day..

The only legitimate way forward really, would be to publish..But even IEEE and AES have their problems...

Meanwhile, we who use components not designed this way, given that is virtually all of them, employ what we find that works audibly better given the circumstances.

I have noticed more effort on the part of some manufacturers to specifically add more complex RFI filtering in their products and larger power supplies than conventional engineering practice dictates.

rw

[jneutron]

Meanwhile, we who use components not designed this way, given that is virtually all of them, employ what we find that works audibly better given the circumstances.
rw

Yes. And, this is why I have never blasted, or otherwise attacked, those who make the audibility claims..as there are clear paths for coupling.

And, this is why I have attempted to explain why they can make a diff from a purely E/M vantage.

Also, why I speak out against the crap, like needing silver, needing #6 awg, needing multiple shields, needing cryo'd anything. Actual understanding of the issues is much more important..

I had for a while considered putting up a shingle, and doing a retrofit business fixing all those poor designs out there, I've always had fun with wiring harness boards, and it's no-brainer work..(perfect fit for me, I'm well qualified for no brainer stuff.. ). (actually, I work with a lot of retirees here, they are not paid but come in anyway...and I seriously would entertain coming here and working after I retire..such is life when you have a job that you really love..)

Perhaps sometime in the future I'll setup a DBA, and go for it..maybe something to do when I retire, or maybe if I'm let go..

I have noticed more effort on the part of some manufacturers to specifically add more complex RFI filtering in their products and larger power supplies than conventional engineering practice dictates.rw

For radiating or intercepting RFI, that is a good track to be on..but, what I speak of is not that entity, so RFI solutions are not viable, but may haphazardly change something..

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

...I'd guess all the power wiring should be as segregated as practicable from the signal traces (or wiring) and not run parallel to them at any point...good practice without AND within.

Certainly makes sense..I have an old Fender Bandmaster guitar amp that is somewhat susceptible to hum if you move the interenal wiring a bit too far from it's intended position...and it's all "breadboard" style, point-to-point wiring and all...I'd hazard a guess they arrived at their wiring layout pretty much through trial and error in an effort to optimize s/n and hummmmm. Forty years old and still cookin'!

jimHJJ(...and I do like the idea of the hardwired power cord...)

What is interesting about loop pickup it how it works. For example, take a flat 3 wire extension cord, and push a kilo through it, a space heater load..run the wire flat and straight..

The center wire of the cord is ground.hot and neutral on either side, like romex...

Run a second cord next to it, one inch away, but do not put a load into it..measure the ground to ground potential.

Next, put the unpowered cord 6 inches away, and repeat the measurement..the voltage is MORE, not less..

Put the cord a foot away..the voltage is even MORE..(granted, the voltages for this example are not gonna be big..

What's going on? As you move the cord farther and farther away, the loop formed by the grounds are trapping more of the 60 hz flux within the loop...faraday's law states that the loop voltage is proportional to the rate of change of the flux within..so, in this case, distance is the enemy...the further away, the worse it gets...this is of course, asymptotically approaching a maximum, it doesn't keep getting bigger.

Faraday's law states.....RATE of change of the flux...60 hz is only the primary, most rectifier circuits draw haversines, 180 hz being very large...the flux rate of change is three times larger per amp..keep going up the odd harmonics..

Then, look at the line cord field with 1,5 or 10 Khz power being delivered to the load...with physically large capacitors...

It seems that your amp vendor had to find the minima coupling path by pushin the wires around to null it..hey, worked for them..

Cheers, John

[thepogue]

I'm not at all questioning you ability make a better mouse-trap...I just had a hard time swallowing your reasoning for not getting rich with this fact! So I'll return to my first line of questioning...

If you can make a cable (or any other product)..for short $$$..that will smoke most anything out there...am I to believe that you just really don't what to be in the limelight for your new design? (I'm saying new because I'm assuming that no other EE and or audio company had the correct data to make your cable) And that you enjoy you job so much that money (enough to make a man rich) isn't enough motivation to design, produce, and market your cables? It seems so risk free if in fact the cables are as good as you claim.

Or it very well could be...that I'm the one being humored....and I'm just to silly to see!

As stated I'll take you off the hook......no limelight...no risk...just send me all the data...I'll put my name on it...head to my lawyers office for a patient and all that kinda silliness (course Ill have to share the $$$...but what the heck there should be PLENTY to go round!)....and marketing these babies should be a snap because I'm sure the test data will be clearly show the advantages of this cheap and effective product....then lets see.....take you to lunch....buy you a beer...and then the audio world will be better off!! Whadda say ole chum!!!

Pogue (waiting for a payday!!)

Assume for a moment, the following..(humor me for a minute.)

1. I understand via e/m theory, why a line cord makes a difference..it doesn't involve either power quality, or PSRR. The basis is entirely the amp's fault..any amp which can be affected by the line cord, is designed without consideration of the problem..

2. I design a cord which gets around the cord contribution to this error, far better than any other cord on the market..

3. Everyone who tries this cord finds it is better..

4..Given the low cost of the materials, it is not picked up by a boutique cord manu...no profit..

5. All who make one DIY, do so using my solution..

6. Thousands are made, perhaps tens of thousands...absolutely NONE of them done with my control over the quality of the assembly.

7. One, two, maybe ten of them are done poorly..leading to an incident, fire maybe..

Who is responsible?..me? No thanks..sure, lots of people could make it capable of surviving a direct hit by lightning..but it's the ones who can't that scare me.

Anyone who posts a power cord solution using a wire construct which is NOT UL approved, in a manner which is not UL approved, posts stupidly, and puts themselves into a position of liability..I try not to be that dumb (sometimes I succeed)..

The best thing that could be done, is have the solution setup as an OEM product. In fact, the better option is not IEC, but hard wired into the amp..

The best and total solution is :

1. Hard wire with my cord.

2. Gut the amp primary wires, with a real wiring harness put in.

3. Gut all the low impedance supply rail and ground runs, and replace with a real wiring harness, up to and including the runs to the output binding posts.

4. Gut the input wiring run, and replace it with a real wiring harness.

The key phrase here being: real wiring harness.. All the amp product I've viewed to date internally, is just schlock..e/m speaking of course...I marvel at some of the craftsmanship and circuit design, but they do not, and I repeat, DO NOT understand magnetics, high slew rate currents, and low impedance circuitry..randomness rules the day..

The only legitimate way forward really, would be to publish..But even IEEE and AES have their problems...

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

I'm not at all questioning you ablity make a better mouse-trap...I just had a hard time swallowing your reasoning for not getting rich with this fact! So I'll return to my first line of questioning...

You would be well within your rights to question my ability at building a better mousetrap.

If you can make a cable (or any other product)..for short $$$..that will smoke most anything out there...am I to beleive that you just really don't what to be in the limelight for your new design? (I'm saying new because I'm assuming that no other EE and or audio company had the correct data to make your cable) And that you enjoy you job so much that money (enough to make a man rich) isn't enough motivation to design, produce, and market your cables? It seems so risk free if in fact the cables are as good as you claim.

I also assume that no other EE or audio company understands what I am talking about. Perhaps someone does, I have not seen anything that would indicate so..

Or it very well could be...that I'm the one being humored....and I'm just to silly to see!

No. I am not humoring you.

As stated I'll take you off the hook......no limelight...no risk...just send me all the data...I'll put my name on it...head to my lawers office for a patient and all that kinda silliness (course I"ll have to share the $$$...but what the heck ther should be PLENTY to go round!)....and marketing these babies should be a snap because I'm sure the test data will be clearly show the advantages of this cheap and effective product....then lets see.....take you to lunch....buy you a beer...and then the audio world will be better off!! Whatta say ole chum!!!

A patent only gives you the right to sue to protect your IP. It is very easy to get around a patent, and very difficult to defend it.

Why do you assume there would be lots of money?? How many a'philes would want a cord...100, 1000? From what I see, that size market doesn't exist..

Between patent costs, NRE for the wire, materials and labor, where would break even occur? I believe that would have to be in the 1000+ regime. Not to mention the liability insurance.

It would probably be better to just pay the NRE on the wire, have it tested to UL requirements, and offer it as a standard product line at say, Belden..

I went through this a while back, when I designed a true 75 ohm RCA jack and plug set..turned out, I posted the design (actually on this forum) exactly 31 days AFTER wbt applied for the patent in Germany...me, a bridesmaid...go figure..

Then, I created a new design which obsoletes that one...big time...mentioned it to a few wbt reps, no interest..hmmm. The cost of the widgit would be in the ten to 20 cent range, so to be worthwhile, even with 5 cents per part profit, it'd be necessary to produce 10 to 30 thousand pieces per week. Market demand could be there if anyone cared about the fact that rca's aren't 75 ohm..but most don't.

Course, it would also obsolete all the wbt 75 ohm rca product..maybe I can get them to pay me NOT to detail it?

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

Why do you assume there would be lots of money?? How many a'philes would want a cord...100, 1000? From what I see, that size market doesn't exist..

Between patent costs, NRE for the wire, materials and labor, where would break even occur? I believe that would have to be in the 1000+ regime. Not to mention the liability insurance.

Exactly. The real business of producing, promoting, supporting, and distributing goods involves a lot more than the raw cost of materials. Many "overpriced" cables are labors of love, not profit.

Course, it would also obsolete all the wbt 75 ohm rca product..maybe I can get them to pay me NOT to detail it?

Yep. Just like the oil companies that bought and moth-balled all those $19.95 devices you could attach to your car's engine to get 100 MPG.

rw

[jneutron]

Exactly. The real business of producing, promoting, supporting, and distributing goods involves a lot more than the raw cost of materials. Many "overpriced" cables are labors of love, not profit.rw

And, unfortunately, my bank does not allow deposits of "labors of love"...they prefer cash..

Yep. Just like the oil companies that bought and moth-balled all those $19.95 devices you could attach to your car's engine to get 100 MPG. rw

Actually, I did have a car that got 134 miles to the gallon..

Unfortunately, it was antifreeze, not gas..

On the plus side, two of the spark plugs were incredibly clean...steam cleaned...

On the minus side, I hadta keep a coupla gallons of antifreeze in the trunk for the round trip to work..

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

On the minus side, I hadta keep a coupla gallons of antifreeze in the trunk for the round trip to work..

Funny! Reminds me of a brother's friend who had a '67 Austin-Healey that leaked oil with a similar thirst. Fortunately, it was a directed leak that could be captured by a coffee can strategically wedged near the block. Once he reached his destination, he simply poured the oil back in the crankcase.

Near real time oil recycling!

rw

[pctower]

My 2 cents worth.

This inference doesn't prove anything of course but it is usually suspicious when mainstream electrical engineering doesn't even discuss something that audio enthusiasts are raving about and audio cable retailers are describing on their sites.

Does "mainstream electical engineering" generally discuss anything having to do with traditional 2-channel, high end audio?

The big money in cables is Monster sold in mass-market outlets to gulible non-audiophiles. Most true high end audiophiles don't believe Monster is worth a damn.

The rest of the cable industry sells to the very limited, niche high-end market. Dollar-wise, that's a speck of sand compared to the overall electronic industry. "Mainstream electrical engineering" follows the money - and relatively speaking there is no money in high-end audio.

The fact that "mainstream electrical engineering" doesn't discuss audio cables means nothing more than there just isn't enough money involved. If you really think it suggests that cables cannot affect sonics, then I respectfully suggest you are allowing your biases to trump your objectivety and are grasping for straws.

[mixadude]

I just can't see any point in using some over designed 9ga 1 meter piece of power cable between an IEC connector and a 15 or 20 amp wall outlet that has maybe 50 feet of 12ga or 14ga thhn or romex to the load center.

When I spec commercial installations I put the load center (100A or 200A single or 3 phase depending) right next to the racks, then feed the outlets with 10ga and use 12ga shorty IEC cables to the amps, usually 1 or 2 amps per circuit depending. Some larger amps (QSC PL6 or such) require even larger demands and those circuits are set up accordingly with larger circuits and cable and connectors.

But just a big fat power cord on a questionable mains connection seems silly to me.