Great Article on Cables

[E-Stat]

Ah...ok..what bruce said was referring to the use of unsafe cords, a #14 by design, is not within that category with a 15 amp outlet.. You both are talking past each other..

What do you mean by "with a 15 amp outlet"? The spec sheet for 19364 says:

ELECTRICAL CHARACTERISTICS :
Max. Operating Voltage - UL: 300 V RMS
Dielectric Withstand Voltage: 2000 V AC Applied For 1 Min.
Max. Recommended Current: 18 Amps per conductor @ 25 C, 13 Amps per conductor @ 25 C over 50 ft.

Did your amp come with a 12 gauge cord? Most in my experience use an 18 or a 16.

He was referring to others with your beliefs, using undersized cords...you know of several out there that shouldn't even be used to power a nightlight..

So he quotes me on using larger than stock cords and rants about using smaller ones?

The design is a curious mixture of extreme overkill with conductor sizing, the silly use of various metal schemes, and just tossing lots of shield at the problem without understanding what they are actually doing engineering wise..It is trivial to actually do it right, but that understanding is beyond them.

The proof is in the pudding.

BTW, was the cord evaluated as meeting UL requirements after all those layers of shield and insulation were applied?

These folks know what they are doing.

...detailing of how to properly build a line cord would impact the aftermarket cord industry in a bad way, I also have no desire to do such..I am sensitive to people earning a living.

Ridiculous. People build a better moustrap every day. Build it and they will come.

Ya gotta love how some of our choices are made..you are lucky in that your significant other puts up with your audio fanaticism...I also am lucky in that regard..

True, but knew what she was getting into. Here's a pic circa '85 of my first house before we married.



You'll notice the fancy window treatments! Actually that pic was taken right after I moved in. The tapestry behind the sofa was hung on the back wall as damping. We later finished the basement and moved the monoliths there. When I built my current house, I specifically changed the original basement design to accommodate an even larger dedicated space.

rw

[jneutron]

What do you mean by "with a 15 amp outlet"? The spec sheet for 19364 says:

ELECTRICAL CHARACTERISTICS :
Max. Operating Voltage - UL: 300 V RMS
Dielectric Withstand Voltage: 2000 V AC Applied For 1 Min.
Max. Recommended Current: 18 Amps per conductor @ 25 C, 13 Amps per conductor @ 25 C over 50 ft.

Did your amp come with a 12 gauge cord? Most in my experience use an 18 or a 16.
rw

What I meant by "with a 15 amp outlet", is that a #14 wire, which the belden 19364 is specified as having, is the same conductor guage as the #14 wire within the wall, by code, for 15 amp service... Since a #14-3 is code within the walls for 15 amperes, it is certainly acceptable for use with a 15 amp outlet..

I was going to gently admonish you for your lack of reading skills, but alas, I see that I did not punctuate correctly...I said"Ah...ok..what bruce said was referring to the use of unsafe cords, a #14 by design, is not within that category with a 15 amp outlet.. You both are talking past each other.. " What I meant was ....""unsafe cords. (end of sentence, new thought). A #14 by design, is not in that (unsafe cord) category..

Geeze, estat..can't you read minds??? or, at least, see past incorrect punctuation??

Originally Posted by jneutron The design is a curious mixture of extreme overkill with conductor sizing, the silly use of various metal schemes, and just tossing lots of shield at the problem without understanding what they are actually doing engineering wise..It is trivial to actually do it right, but that understanding is beyond them.

The proof is in the pudding.rw

As I said, they threw the book at the problem, without actually understanding the problem..

Quote:

Originally Posted by jneutron BTW, was the cord evaluated as meeting UL requirements after all those layers of shield and insulation were applied?

These folks know what they are doing.rw

I did not ask you if they knew what they are doing..From their product, I am well aware of what they know and what they don't know..the fact that they needed silver, multiple shields, and #9 wire, shows that they only marginally know what they are doing..and certainly do not understand what the line cord issues for high end audio really are.

I asked you if they evaluated their end product to UL requirements. This needed only a simple yes or no..the statement"they know what they are doing" is not an answer to the question..but rather, a diversion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jneutron ...detailing of how to properly build a line cord would impact the aftermarket cord industry in a bad way, I also have no desire to do such..I am sensitive to people earning a living.

Ridiculous. People build a better moustrap every day. Build it and they will come.

You did not understand my intent...my fault..

I can easily design a #12, #10, or #8 guage product that blows all the aftermarket line cords out of the water, yours included...and I can do it for about 2 to 4 dollars a foot...

But the cost of that product, for aftermarket vendors, is the loss of any perceived advantages. The small cable manu's I've corresponded with, I've have no issues with them, and hope they do well..Imagine that big speaker wire company with the stadium named after it (please, no names), being able to sell 25 or 50 dollar line cords that work better than the boutique cords...flood the market with better performing product, patents and all, and slammin everybody who tries to duplicate a trivial design? Yah, everybody'd just love that.

I will not be a part of that..some things are better left unsaid..30 years ago, I'da come in blastin without regard for the people who make cords for a living..my morals and values have changed over the decades.

RE: your living situ: you seem to be having fun...this is a good thing..

Me too..

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

alas, I see that I did not punctuate correctly.

No problemo.

As I said, they threw the book at the problem, without actually understanding the problem..

I can easily design a #12, #10, or #8 guage product that blows all the aftermarket line cords out of the water, yours included...and I can do it for about 2 to 4 dollars a foot...

I'm perfectly willing to throw away some money on your bold claim. Make me a four foot prototype and I'll get it auditioned by critical ears I know. If your claim is true, I guarantee you significant press by an individual who has had the ear of audio enthusiasts for over thirty years.

Yah, everybody'd just love that.

Every audio enthusiast sure would!

I'm certainly not one who wants to spend more on something than necessary to get equivalency. That's why I have drive/ride Hondas. The perceived panache of high-priced items like Rolex watches and Ferraris requires that the general public recognizes said. There is zero "prestige" value to what 99.9% of the population isn't aware of.

rw

[jneutron]

I'm perfectly willing to throw away some money on your bold claim. Make me a four foot prototype and I'll get it auditioned by critical ears I know. If your claim is true, I guarantee you significant press by an individual who has had the ear of audio enthusiasts for over thirty years. rw

Honestly, I'm not sure I want any press. I enjoy what I do, and like my simple life..I truly enjoy what I do at the lab, and hoopla in the press has no value or interest to the people who ultimately pay my bills.

I've debated internally, this very issue for years. For now, I'm just in it for the learning and discussions..had any vendors expressed any interest in learning or collaborating, I'da taken them up..they know so little about e/m theory (course, most people don't..)

Turning what is lucrative to many aftermarket manufacturers, into a nickel and dime jellybean coupla dollars per piece profit....has too high a price IMHO.

I'm certainly not one who wants to spend more on something than necessary to get equivalency. rw

Me either. But there's more to life than just undercutting all the PC vendors with a superior product at dirt cheap prices..that's a rat race I do not know that I wish to enter into, nor do I wish to do that to others who do it for a living..

Daily walks along the piers and beach, watching the sunsets hand in hand, is more along the lines of what I prefer now..

Should my employment situation change for the worse..that is a different story.

Cheers, John

[thepogue]

Let me see if I got this straight...you can make better cables for short money...that will smoke anything out there...but you like your job so much that you don't wanna fuss with it...and beside...none of the dumbarses who make cables to date haven't contacted you (or shown any interest) in getting your formula...so you'll just keep this to yourself?...now that's not very nice is it?...I mean the common man should have the best for less don't you think?...come one...hook a brudda up?...slap somefinn together over the weekend and send them to me...I'll send ya 20 bucks...and I'll be your cheerleader!...In fact cuz you don't want all the fuss and publicity...I'll tell everybody I made them...I don' like my job that much!...I'll take a hit for the team...cool?




This ones really spinnin now!!

Pogue

[jneutron]

Let me see if I got this straight...you can make better cables for short money...that will smoke anything out there...but you like your job so much that you don't wanna fuss with it...and beside...none of the dumbarses who make cables to date haven't contacted you (or shown any interest) in getting your formula...so you'll just keep this to yourself?...now that's not very nice is it?...I mean the common man should have the best for less don't you think?...come one...hook a brudda up?...slap somefinn together over the weekend and send them to me...I'll send ya 20 bucks...and I'll be your cheerleader!...In fact cuz you don't want all the fuss and publicity...I'll tell everybody I made them...I don' like my job that much!...I'll take a hit for the team...cool?




This ones really spinnin now!!

Pogue

Assume for a moment, the following..(humor me for a minute.)

1. I understand via e/m theory, why a line cord makes a difference..it doesn't involve either power quality, or PSRR. The basis is entirely the amp's fault..any amp which can be affected by the line cord, is designed without consideration of the problem..

2. I design a cord which gets around the cord contribution to this error, far better than any other cord on the market..

3. Everyone who tries this cord finds it is better..

4..Given the low cost of the materials, it is not picked up by a boutique cord manu...no profit..

5. All who make one DIY, do so using my solution..

6. Thousands are made, perhaps tens of thousands...absolutely NONE of them done with my control over the quality of the assembly.

7. One, two, maybe ten of them are done poorly..leading to an incident, fire maybe..

Who is responsible?..me? No thanks..sure, lots of people could make it capable of surviving a direct hit by lightning..but it's the ones who can't that scare me.

Anyone who posts a power cord solution using a wire construct which is NOT UL approved, in a manner which is not UL approved, posts stupidly, and puts themselves into a position of liability..I try not to be that dumb (sometimes I succeed)..

The best thing that could be done, is have the solution setup as an OEM product. In fact, the better option is not IEC, but hard wired into the amp..

The best and total solution is :

1. Hard wire with my cord.

2. Gut the amp primary wires, with a real wiring harness put in.

3. Gut all the low impedance supply rail and ground runs, and replace with a real wiring harness, up to and including the runs to the output binding posts.

4. Gut the input wiring run, and replace it with a real wiring harness.

The key phrase here being: real wiring harness.. All the amp product I've viewed to date internally, is just schlock..e/m speaking of course...I marvel at some of the craftsmanship and circuit design, but they do not, and I repeat, DO NOT understand magnetics, high slew rate currents, and low impedance circuitry..randomness rules the day..

The only legitimate way forward really, would be to publish..But even IEEE and AES have their problems...

Cheers, John

[Resident Loser]

...dumbness...are you saying replace all the PCB "common access" power points with dedicated point-to-point wiring?

jimHJJ(...or am I just a complete boob?...)

[E-Stat]

The best thing that could be done, is have the solution setup as an OEM product. In fact, the better option is not IEC, but hard wired into the amp..

The best and total solution is :

1. Hard wire with my cord.

2. Gut the amp primary wires, with a real wiring harness put in.

3. Gut all the low impedance supply rail and ground runs, and replace with a real wiring harness, up to and including the runs to the output binding posts.

4. Gut the input wiring run, and replace it with a real wiring harness.

The key phrase here being: real wiring harness.. All the amp product I've viewed to date internally, is just schlock..e/m speaking of course...I marvel at some of the craftsmanship and circuit design, but they do not, and I repeat, DO NOT understand magnetics, high slew rate currents, and low impedance circuitry..randomness rules the day..

The only legitimate way forward really, would be to publish..But even IEEE and AES have their problems...

Meanwhile, we who use components not designed this way, given that is virtually all of them, employ what we find that works audibly better given the circumstances.

I have noticed more effort on the part of some manufacturers to specifically add more complex RFI filtering in their products and larger power supplies than conventional engineering practice dictates.

rw

[thepogue]

I'm not at all questioning you ability make a better mouse-trap...I just had a hard time swallowing your reasoning for not getting rich with this fact! So I'll return to my first line of questioning...

If you can make a cable (or any other product)..for short $$$..that will smoke most anything out there...am I to believe that you just really don't what to be in the limelight for your new design? (I'm saying new because I'm assuming that no other EE and or audio company had the correct data to make your cable) And that you enjoy you job so much that money (enough to make a man rich) isn't enough motivation to design, produce, and market your cables? It seems so risk free if in fact the cables are as good as you claim.

Or it very well could be...that I'm the one being humored....and I'm just to silly to see!

As stated I'll take you off the hook......no limelight...no risk...just send me all the data...I'll put my name on it...head to my lawyers office for a patient and all that kinda silliness (course Ill have to share the $$$...but what the heck there should be PLENTY to go round!)....and marketing these babies should be a snap because I'm sure the test data will be clearly show the advantages of this cheap and effective product....then lets see.....take you to lunch....buy you a beer...and then the audio world will be better off!! Whadda say ole chum!!!

Pogue (waiting for a payday!!)

Assume for a moment, the following..(humor me for a minute.)

1. I understand via e/m theory, why a line cord makes a difference..it doesn't involve either power quality, or PSRR. The basis is entirely the amp's fault..any amp which can be affected by the line cord, is designed without consideration of the problem..

2. I design a cord which gets around the cord contribution to this error, far better than any other cord on the market..

3. Everyone who tries this cord finds it is better..

4..Given the low cost of the materials, it is not picked up by a boutique cord manu...no profit..

5. All who make one DIY, do so using my solution..

6. Thousands are made, perhaps tens of thousands...absolutely NONE of them done with my control over the quality of the assembly.

7. One, two, maybe ten of them are done poorly..leading to an incident, fire maybe..

Who is responsible?..me? No thanks..sure, lots of people could make it capable of surviving a direct hit by lightning..but it's the ones who can't that scare me.

Anyone who posts a power cord solution using a wire construct which is NOT UL approved, in a manner which is not UL approved, posts stupidly, and puts themselves into a position of liability..I try not to be that dumb (sometimes I succeed)..

The best thing that could be done, is have the solution setup as an OEM product. In fact, the better option is not IEC, but hard wired into the amp..

The best and total solution is :

1. Hard wire with my cord.

2. Gut the amp primary wires, with a real wiring harness put in.

3. Gut all the low impedance supply rail and ground runs, and replace with a real wiring harness, up to and including the runs to the output binding posts.

4. Gut the input wiring run, and replace it with a real wiring harness.

The key phrase here being: real wiring harness.. All the amp product I've viewed to date internally, is just schlock..e/m speaking of course...I marvel at some of the craftsmanship and circuit design, but they do not, and I repeat, DO NOT understand magnetics, high slew rate currents, and low impedance circuitry..randomness rules the day..

The only legitimate way forward really, would be to publish..But even IEEE and AES have their problems...

Cheers, John