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  1. #1
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    Great Article on Cables

    I've been researching all the pieces of my soon-to-be home theatre setup and came accross this article. As with any type of purchase, from electronics to automobiles, you can spend infinite amounts of money on it. But at what point does the extra money you spend, garner you almost no increase in benefit? From this article, it seems that diminishing returns start very low with speaker cable.

    http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

    I don't mean to start a war here, but after reading this article, can anyone provide a coutner argument to it? It seems like a well contructed argument against the powerful marketing of cable manufactureres, but I'm a noob, so I'll gladly eat my words if I'm out to lunch.

    As far as I can tell, so long as the impedence of your speaker wire is less than 5%, it doesn't matter if your wires are from Radio Shack.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I've been researching all the pieces of my soon-to-be home theatre setup and came accross this article.
    That link is as old as grandma's hills and twice as dusty. Most of the references are over twenty years old. While he added a 2001 reference, it is devoid of any tests or substantiation.


    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    As with any type of purchase, from electronics to automobiles, you can spend infinite amounts of money on it. But at what point does the extra money you spend, garner you almost no increase in benefit? From this article, it seems that diminishing returns start very low with speaker cable.
    And that was my conclusion in the 80s until I experienced better in my system.


    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I don't mean to start a war here, but after reading this article, can anyone provide a coutner argument to it?
    Use the search archives as you will find many answers. One unanswered question I have posed to the Russell crowd here has to do with RFI. The standard assertion is that LCR (inductance, capacitance, and resistance) are the only relevant factors.


    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    As far as I can tell, so long as the impedence of your speaker wire is less than 5%, it doesn't matter if your wires are from Radio Shack.
    That's what Roger says although he never states how he arrived at that figure. Why do you say that is the case?

    rw

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Thanks for pointing out the article. I have to admit that I hear differences in cables. I think we can be sensitive to different aspects of sound reproduction. I will change cables and hear an improvement in depth or high frequency extension or any number of sound variables. It is days later when I notice I am playing the stereo less that this was not a positive change. I would find it difficult to AB speaker cables and pick the best one for my system. The cables I am currently using cause me to have music playing all the time. I also notice that when I find my body moving to the music or make a visual image in my head of what the performers are doing that I know I made the right choice. My current cables are solid core. I hear less distortion with them than I do stranded cables. But hey that's just me and what brings me audible pleasure.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I've been researching all the pieces of my soon-to-be home theatre setup and came accross this article. As with any type of purchase, from electronics to automobiles, you can spend infinite amounts of money on it. But at what point does the extra money you spend, garner you almost no increase in benefit? From this article, it seems that diminishing returns start very low with speaker cable.

    http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

    I don't mean to start a war here, but after reading this article, can anyone provide a coutner argument to it? It seems like a well contructed argument against the powerful marketing of cable manufactureres, but I'm a noob, so I'll gladly eat my words if I'm out to lunch.

    As far as I can tell, so long as the impedence of your speaker wire is less than 5%, it doesn't matter if your wires are from Radio Shack.

    Thanks
    My advice is for you to try different cables in your system and listen for yourself if they make a difference. Nobody has your ears or your system and is listening in your environment. The objectivist crowd insists that you read papers such as the one you posted (which, as E-Stat hinted, has been rammed down our throats on this board many times before) and not listen to cables. By all means, read the white papers if you like. But do experiment and listen. A pound of personal experience is worth a megaton of theory.

    Furthermore, LCR parameters are not - in the opinion of many listeners - sufficient to explain sonic differences. If they were, someone would be able to measure those factors and come up with the reasons why we hear differences. There are too many holes in the known scientific theories. Cables can make a difference. If they will make a difference to you is a question only you can answer.

  5. #5
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    Perhaps I'm being too...

    ...simplistic...RFI? you either experience it or you don't...strikes me as a shielding issue...other than that, how does it pertain to audio cables?

    jimHJJ(...just curious...)

  6. #6
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...simplistic...RFI? you either experience it or you don't
    Unless you are Amish and use a battery powered analog system, then you have at least one source of local RFI - the CD / DVD player situated in proximity to your amplification device(s). I'm not referring to gross amounts resulting in hearing radio or TV broadcasts though the effect is similar by injecting foreign noise into the signal. Perhaps my situation is worse than others because I have three digital cable boxes, five DVD/CDPs, two computers, four wireless phones, and an 802.11 G wireless router. AC current loops throughout a house and spreads all the nasties far and wide.

    Back to the question. As SkepticSoundmind would point out, Belden, the patron saint of all things good in cables, produces various kinds of shielded cables, both audio and power alike. They must have some valid reason(s) behind those applications, right? Given their sainthood, they must have objective metrics to quantify the efficacy of their shielding strategies. What is/are those metrics? How do they know if a given amount of shielding is sufficient? What are the test conditions under which the shielding is subjected?

    Perhaps you won't duck answering that question as FLZapped has on more than one occasion.

    rw

  7. #7
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat

    Perhaps you won't duck answering that question as FLZapped has on more than one occasion.

    rw
    Uhm, I don't work for Belden, so how can I duck a question I don't have the pertinent facts to? Why don't you write to them and ask what their internal metrics are.

    -Bruce

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    Okay, I'll bite...

    ...you mean to infer that RFI from the sources you mention, while not as overt as your local CBer or newscopter, somehow pushes, pulls or otherwise smears your audio signal? I for one don't buy it...I don't think the signal strength is sufficient enough to do such a thing, a part of that whole logarithmic deal. I would also think the levels that should be required to do so would be easily measureable/visible on a 'scope.

    Insofar as the good folks at Belden are concerned, given the myriad of circuits that might be involved, levels of shielding are dependent on any number of parameters...hence it's not a one size fits all scenario. I would suppose they test within accepted industrial standards for each requirement and there is a certain overlap in the parameters of the offered cables...whether it's a robotics application or data transmission. These are the folks that count, they require adherence to specs that are far above our puny concerns of 20hz-20kHz...I think it was MM who oftimes spoke of cabling on naval vessels...certainly in what might be a life-or-death situation i.e enemy jamming, shielding is quite high on the list of concerns..."the flute sounds a bit fuzzy" isn't.

    My turn: How many of the after-market wiring folks actually do much more than order a sufficient quantity of cable from suppliers(like Belden) and can therefore request(for a price) their name and/or logo to be imprinted on the product rather than the actual manufacturer? Most of the R&D I've seen is marketing-based, e.g. citing patents that are available to anyone paying the required fees, the near obligatory psuedo connection to NASA and the Barnum-like use of jargon and factoids in their supporting documentation.

    SOP in telecommunications for dealing with RFI...low-pass filters...cheap AND effective...

    It seems as audio is in a league of it's own...

    jimHJJ(...you asked, I gave it my best guess...)

  9. #9
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    Well that is why...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Then you have at least one source of local RFI - the CD / DVD player situated in proximity to your amplification device(s)....
    ... it is widely recommended that amps be a bit further away from the rest of the audio system. I definitely noticed a difference when I moved my amp off the rack and added a power center. Hence the issue with shielding. In my experience, there are definite differences in cables but whether one should classify these as improvements or worthy of much higher prices is a different matter altogether. Here is what I have found in my experience:

    - Shielding is important (particularly when power and IC cables run close together or with antenna cable).
    - Speaker wire gauge (i.e from 16 to 12) comes into play only after 50' or more.
    - IC cable length is also important after 8+ feet.
    - Generic or off-brand, well built and shielded power chords will give you the same advantages as brand-name ones.
    - When remodeling, use fire-spec'd cable in-wall or your building permit will be denied (learned this first hand).
    - Materials have character. For some reason, my expensive (in my book, at least) AQ silver cables sound smoother than the lower-cost copper ones. But this is very slight.
    - Switchboxes and connectors are almost always a bad idea (especially with video cables) unless quality isn't important.
    - A good brand-name power center or power strip may not make a huge difference, but the attached equipment warrantee will.
    - Many brands are sold at exhorbitant markups (i.e Monster) at retail stores. Online-only stores almost always have lower cost cables.
    - Second-hand is the best way to buy high performance brand-name cables.
    - DIY cables are very good and some, like speaker cables, are easy to make.

    The bottom line for me is that many of the things that people use to justify a higher price are more issues of taste than real quality. The difference in quality between a $50 interconnect and a $150 one is as insignificant as the difference between a $500 and $3000 one. And although I haven't tried anything more expensive, I would guess that the law of dinishing returns applies here: there is so little difference in quality between a $5000 cable and a $50,000 one, that that money should be used to upgrade other parts of the system first. But that is just what I have found, and I'm still trying out new things everyday. If someone want to send me a $5K cable and a $50K cable to test, please do , I could probably get $3K for them on Audiogon when I'm done!

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Unless you are Amish and use a battery powered analog system
    Isn't the Sutherland PhD phono preamp one of the best and quietest battery-powered preamps available? And I don't think he's Amish.

  10. #10
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Uhm, I don't work for Belden, so how can I duck a question I don't have the pertinent facts to?
    I'm referring to this quote of yours:

    Cables have been tested to death for decades and no one, but no one has been able to find any property that doesn't boil down to L-C-R. Period.

    Obviously, that is incorrect given the presence of shielding in a wide range of cables. Here is one of the times I directed this question to you where you did not respond:

    Sighted Testing IS King!! Silly me - all those years wasted...

    So what is the missing metric? As for pertinent facts, how does Motorola determine how much shielding is required for a given component? Surely you guys don't just make wild guesses, right? I presume you are quantifying and measuring something.

    rw

  11. #11
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...you mean to infer that RFI from the sources you mention, while not as overt as your local CBer or newscopter, somehow pushes, pulls or otherwise smears your audio signal?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Insofar as the good folks at Belden are concerned, given the myriad of circuits that might be involved, levels of shielding are dependent on any number of parameters...etc. etc.
    You have still failed to mention that which they would be measuring. You may be able to see the results on a scope, but how do you measure the shield itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    How many of the after-market wiring folks actually do much more than order a sufficient quantity of cable from suppliers(like Belden) and can therefore request(for a price) their name and/or logo to be imprinted on the product rather than the actual manufacturer?
    All the ones that I use or have found beneficial in my system. JPS Labs, Nordost, Kimber, et al.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ..you asked, I gave it my best guess
    Thank you. Let's see if Bruce will do likewise. I had to jog his memory.

    rw

  12. #12
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    Oh, you mean actual tests?...

    ...I'm not sure how they do it but, if'n it was me...

    I'd apply a test signal to the conductors that mimics the signal that would be carried by them and then subject the cable to various forms and levels of RFI then...

    I wouldn't apply any signal, connect the appropriate test gear to the conductors and re-do the battery of assaults...

    Or vice-versa...

    I'd look for differences in the test signal and I'd look for any induced disturbances in the dry conductors...

    If I encounter no disturbance in the signal nor any induced artifacts in the conductors, I would assume the shield to be sufficient...

    jimHJJ(...then again I'm not them...but I'd wager my protocol to be reasonably close...)

    P.S. This of course assumes we already have baseline specs on the unshielded conductors when subjected to the interference...you need a point of comparison for the tests to be valid...
    Last edited by Resident Loser; 06-01-2005 at 12:38 PM. Reason: P.S.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I've been researching all the pieces of my soon-to-be home theatre setup and came accross this article. As with any type of purchase, from electronics to automobiles, you can spend infinite amounts of money on it. But at what point does the extra money you spend, garner you almost no increase in benefit? From this article, it seems that diminishing returns start very low with speaker cable.

    http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

    I don't mean to start a war here, but after reading this article, can anyone provide a coutner argument to it? It seems like a well contructed argument against the powerful marketing of cable manufactureres, but I'm a noob, so I'll gladly eat my words if I'm out to lunch.

    As far as I can tell, so long as the impedence of your speaker wire is less than 5%, it doesn't matter if your wires are from Radio Shack.

    Thanks
    I'll repeat what I said about this article in my post on 3-03-05:

    I have used the wire table in the Roger Russell link with mixed results. I relocated a pair of 4-ohm speakers which necessitated going from 8' lengths to 25' lengths of the 14 AWG speaker wire I was using. Much to my disappointment there was a very obvious loss of bass. To eliminate the possibility that the change in speaker location was the reason for the problem, I tried the speakers in the original location using the 25' wire. Again the bass was not as good as it was with the 8' wire. Using a pair of 8-ohm speakers, however, I noticed no difference in performance with the 8' and 25' wires. While the wire table could be a useful guide, it may not apply to all speakers, and some experimentation may be necessary for best results.

  14. #14
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    My 2 cents worth.

    If you Google terms like: RFI shielding, EMI testing, EMC, electromagnetic interference, you get sites like the military, industrial companies, nuclear facilities, educational institutions, etc. When you add to this search terms like: power cord, power cable, shielded power cord, all you get are mostly audio sites, audio forums, audio cable retailers, etc. The few other sites that do come up do not associate a power cord with RFI interference, it just happens to be mentioned separately somewhere on the site. Another interesting search is "audio engineering" and "power cord". You don't get any educational institutions, engineering schools, military, or even recording studios. You get sites that are selling aftermarket power cords and describing why they are important.

    A reasonable person, even without an electrical engineering background, should be able to infer something about the above. This inference doesn't prove anything of course but it is usually suspicious when mainstream electrical engineering doesn't even discuss something that audio enthusiasts are raving about and audio cable retailers are describing on their sites.
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  15. #15
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    There you go again...

    ...injecting logic and reason into the fray...

    jimHJJ(...hope all is well...)

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Actually, I'm on a bit of a roll so here goes again.

    This is a fine example of an audio website espousing the benefits of upgrading your power cord: http://www.requisiteaudio.com/about_us/news/032304.html. Here are some quotes and my comments.

    Aside from making the connection, audio grade A/C cables don't work that way. It's more accurate to think of them as a component like an AF Choke. Being engineers, you already know, a choke is just a wire wrapped around a core. Yet, when correctly designed and implemented, it's properties are ideal for removing "hash" from audio. I'm not suggesting that an A/C cable is a choke, just that it's simplicity implies that it can't have an effect, when in fact, it can.

    So let's see, we can think of audio grade A/C cables as a choke, but that's not suggesting that they are a choke! Well that's good because a choke reduces current flow. (How this applies to the sound coming out your speakers is beyond me)

    Once you can wrap your thinking around the possibility of making a bad sounding cable, you can use the same logic to understand that, if a cable can be made to sound bad, it is quite possible to make a cable sound better.

    Huh? Any first year philosophy students out there? Any logicians? If you can take something and make it worse, then logic dictates that you can make it better. I don't think so.

    But, how much better? Well, that depends on how reactive the equipment you are connecting is to the cable being used. Not every piece of gear will benefit in the same way because different designs are "upset" in different ways by different things.

    This statement is too technical for me to comment on. You have "reactive" equipment and designs which can be "upset". Sorry, out of my league.

    The way our A/C cable was developed was not totally scientific using advanced math or that sort of thing.

    The next time you step into an elevator or aboard an aircraft, consider that the way it may have been designed "was not totally scientific using advanced math or that sort of thing."

    Truthfully, we don't know exactly why our audio grade A/C cable sounds the way it does. It doesn't show-up on measuring devices as less distortion or better frequency.response.

    Okay, now I'm beginning to believe this guy.

    Anyways, this is typical of an explanation for purchasing aftermarket power cords.

    My advice to anyone itching to spend more money on their audio system is to improve your room acoustics. There is one thing certain in audio and that is that there is no such thing as an acoustically perfect room. Using correct logic, this implies that one can always improve the sound of their system by improving their room acoustics.
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  17. #17
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Obviously, that is incorrect given the presence of shielding in a wide range of cables. Here is one of the times I directed this question to you where you did not respond:

    Sighted Testing IS King!! Silly me - all those years wasted...

    So what is the missing metric? rw
    Since I'm on a roll, here is something for you to read: http://www.floemc.com/applications/s...ness/index.jsp

    In general, Belden doesn't give any shielding data because shielding effectiveness very much depends on the installation of the cable, the connectors, the length, the environment, the equipement connected, etc. It would be impossible for Belden to come up with data for all of the scenarios their customers use for their cabling. Shielding is not a cable metric, it is measure of protection for the signal in a given environment.

    And actual shielding effectivene testing is quite complicated and expensive. When it does happen, it is usually tested for a specific purpose. For example, on our naval vessels, there are several high power emitters like radar, fire control radar, HF communications, etc. So we have done a thorough shielding effectiveness test (usually before a ship is first commissioned and then only infrequently after that) by simulating the actual shipboard radiation it will be exposed to and having all sensitive electronic equipment operational. This is a tedious and expensive process.

    During the normal life of a ship, cables and equipment are designed to meet military standands with some manufacturer's testing. Mostly, equipment problems at sea are tackled with troubleshooting and if EMI is the culprit, then measures are taken to eliminate the problem.

    I guess an analogy would be designing a skyscraper. You obviously need to consider hurricanes and earthquakes when you design the structure (thickness of steel, use of cement, flexibility points, etc.) but you don't actually do tests on a completed building.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    As for pertinent facts, how does Motorola determine how much shielding is required for a given component? rw
    Motorola would analyze the range of envirnments the product is expected to operate in and then apply current good engineering practices regarding shielding. They may even do some testing to verify that the shielding is adequate. Sometimes the customer has special requirements which it can identify and Motorola will provide custom shielding (at a higher cost of course).
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  18. #18
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...injecting logic and reason into the fray...

    jimHJJ(...hope all is well...)
    Thanks Jim,

    Here's a quote for you:

    "If you don't think that logic is a good method for determining what to believe, make an attempt to convince me of that without using logic."

    Brett Lemoine
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  19. #19
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    Thanks for all the replies.

    As MM points out with his google search method, there is a ton of marketing hoopla out on cables to the effect of "we can't exactly tell you how it makes a difference, but it does!!". Talking with engineers, you would tend to believe that cables do not make a difference, and that any percieved difference is psychological.

    A friend of mine is an incredible musician with a terrific ear, and also has his PhD in physics. His recommendation: zip cord. The physics behind cables is well established and it's relatively clear that cable is cable (more or less). The debate, IMO, is on the psychological side. I don't doubt for one second that people 'hear' a difference with different cables. I probably would too if I spent 300/ft . The fact that no one can come up with a reason that cables are superior/inferior other than to say "I can hear it", does not inspire me to go out and splurge on expensive cables. Again, I'm not disputing that the don't hear a difference. I just think that the difference they hear is probably only perceived, and may not be 'real'. That doesn't mean they are stupid, only human (insert "humans are stupid" joke here).

    Maybe I'm too scepticle, but testing different cables sound is so subjective and at the mercy of so many variables (source equip, proper connection, speakers, listeners mood, the actual song, background noise, time between listening sessions, CD recording quality), that until some guy in a lab coat and glasses with bonafied credentials tells me otherwise, i think my money is best spent elsewhere in my system.

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    Haha..
    "If you don't think that logic is a good method for determining what to believe, make an attempt to convince me of that without using logic."
    Too funny.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    Thanks for all the replies.

    As MM points out with his google search method, there is a ton of marketing hoopla out on cables to the effect of "we can't exactly tell you how it makes a difference, but it does!!". Talking with engineers, you would tend to believe that cables do not make a difference, and that any percieved difference is psychological.

    A friend of mine is an incredible musician with a terrific ear, and also has his PhD in physics. His recommendation: zip cord. The physics behind cables is well established and it's relatively clear that cable is cable (more or less). The debate, IMO, is on the psychological side. I don't doubt for one second that people 'hear' a difference with different cables. I probably would too if I spent 300/ft . The fact that no one can come up with a reason that cables are superior/inferior other than to say "I can hear it", does not inspire me to go out and splurge on expensive cables. Again, I'm not disputing that the don't hear a difference. I just think that the difference they hear is probably only perceived, and may not be 'real'. That doesn't mean they are stupid, only human (insert "humans are stupid" joke here).

    Maybe I'm too scepticle, but testing different cables sound is so subjective and at the mercy of so many variables (source equip, proper connection, speakers, listeners mood, the actual song, background noise, time between listening sessions, CD recording quality), that until some guy in a lab coat and glasses with bonafied credentials tells me otherwise, i think my money is best spent elsewhere in my system.
    Scepticle,

    I think you misunderstand what most people here are saying: cables will sound different, but the verdict is still out on whether they sound better or whether this should cost much more.

    And you can also check with your PhD friend, but there are undeniable physical factors related to distance, gauge, and shielding, that can easily be measured and heard. Typically, these only come into play in specific (read: max/min/limit/extreme) situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    My 2 cents worth.

    If you Google terms like: RFI shielding, EMI testing, EMC, electromagnetic interference, you get sites like the military, industrial companies, nuclear facilities, educational institutions, etc. When you add to this search terms like: power cord, power cable, shielded power cord, all you get are mostly audio sites, audio forums, audio cable retailers, etc. The few other sites that do come up do not associate a power cord with RFI interference, it just happens to be mentioned separately somewhere on the site. Another interesting search is "audio engineering" and "power cord". You don't get any educational institutions, engineering schools, military, or even recording studios. You get sites that are selling aftermarket power cords and describing why they are important.

    A reasonable person, even without an electrical engineering background, should be able to infer something about the above. This inference doesn't prove anything of course but it is usually suspicious when mainstream electrical engineering doesn't even discuss something that audio enthusiasts are raving about and audio cable retailers are describing on their sites.
    Mike, you didn't search enough. This link says NASA is spending $11 million on a power cable:

    www.spacenewsfeed.co.uk/2005/24April2005_27.html

    Don't those NASA people know that a power cord is a power cord.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystic
    Mike, you didn't search enough. This link says NASA is spending $11 million on a power cable:

    www.spacenewsfeed.co.uk/2005/24April2005_27.html

    Don't those NASA people know that a power cord is a power cord.
    Nice find.

    NASA is designing this power cord for a very specific reason and it isn't to make their equipment sound better. However, as can be easily predictable, sometime in the future somebody is going to market a "nanotube power cord" for audio amplifiers and claim it make them sound out of this world.

    Maybe that will be my retirement ticket. I should just shut up and start selling this stuff. Besides, I can write better promo material than half the marketing yahoos in audio.
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  24. #24
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    Well ...

    ...as Mork from Ork would say, "nano-nano"...

    jimHJJ(...may the farce be with you...)

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    My advice to anyone itching to spend more money on their audio system is to improve your room acoustics. There is one thing certain in audio and that is that there is no such thing as an acoustically perfect room. Using correct logic, this implies that one can always improve the sound of their system by improving their room acoustics.
    Please frame that!

    Frankly, any inquiry about whether or not to go with a high priced cable should auto reply with the above quote. Aside from the shielding on interconnects, I've never encountered any difference worth much in cable listenings.

    Room treatments, on the other hand, create very noticeable and objectively verifiable improvements to the sound quality. And by creatively reusing building materials, these kinds of acoustical fixes can be very inexpensive. It's not a quick fix like the constant suggestions to tweak with the cabling, but after navigating the learning curve on acoustics, the sound quality improvements that result are obvious and not subject to interpretation.

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