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Finally made my cable decision!
After a couple of months of auditioning cables - and discovering that the Nordost Valhalla I liked best was way beyond my price range - I found what seems to be the perfect IC's and speaker cable for my system - the Cardas Neutral Reference. Two sets of IC's and a bi-wired set of speaker cable were found on the used market and I'm astonished at the improvement in performance over my previous wire. At first, I thought the lower mids and the upper bass was thin sounding but I realized that it was the lack of distortion that was causing bloat and grain! I was amazed and pleased.
I'm very happy with my decision and I think my system is now complete! :)
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Originally Posted by musicoverall
I'm very happy with my decision and I think my system is now complete! :)
For now, if there is one thing I've found is that the upgrade bug is never dead, it may be hibernating but it is still alive. Congrats on the cable choices. Are you ready to be flamed by the DBT'ers.
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Originally Posted by risabet
For now, if there is one thing I've found is that the upgrade bug is never dead, it may be hibernating but it is still alive. Congrats on the cable choices. Are you ready to be flamed by the DBT'ers.
It's time now to upgrade my music collection... well, increase it anyway! ;)
The DBT'ers and I disagree on one fundamental point... I trust my senses and they don't. My senses ARE my reality, just as they are the reality of most people. What we see, touch, smell, taste and hear are our world - it makes up who we are. I absolutely don't want to start second guessing that. If I do, I may as well start mistrusting that I see snow, hear a bird chirp, that it's really chicken I'm tasting, etc, etc. Certainly the senses can be fooled but if they're fooled into the same conclusion each and every time, I'd have to wonder if they truly are being fooled! So I'm going to sit back and enjoy the perceived improvement my new cables bring to my system and I'll let the DBT'ers do the second guessing.
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Originally Posted by musicoverall
It's time now to upgrade my music collection... well, increase it anyway! ;)
The DBT'ers and I disagree on one fundamental point... I trust my senses and they don't. My senses ARE my reality, just as they are the reality of most people. What we see, touch, smell, taste and hear are our world - it makes up who we are. I absolutely don't want to start second guessing that. If I do, I may as well start mistrusting that I see snow, hear a bird chirp, that it's really chicken I'm tasting, etc, etc. Certainly the senses can be fooled but if they're fooled into the same conclusion each and every time, I'd have to wonder if they truly are being fooled! So I'm going to sit back and enjoy the perceived improvement my new cables bring to my system and I'll let the DBT'ers do the second guessing.
If you're happy about your purchase, I have no complaint.
However, I do point out that it is the so-called DBT crowd that trusts their hearing. A blind audition requires listening--it's listening without benefit of knowing what component is being used. Those who think they can identify various pieces of equipment in an audition by the sound are often mistaken.
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Originally Posted by musicoverall
It's time now to upgrade my music collection... well, increase it anyway! ;)
I may as well start mistrusting that I see snow, hear a bird chirp, that it's really chicken I'm tasting, etc, etc. Certainly the senses can be fooled but if they're fooled into the same conclusion each and every time, I'd have to wonder if they truly are being fooled! So I'm going to sit back and enjoy the perceived improvement my new cables bring to my system and I'll let the DBT'ers do the second guessing.
You see, black isin't really black, it's shades of gray. Green is really blue and yellow. :confused:
You are totally correct in trusting your senses and flipping off the DBTer's. The fact is simple, most people cannot see or hear any difference due to any number of reasons, and just because THEY can't, doesn't mean others can't either. If YOU see it and hear it, good for you. I, for one would love to hear from you after installing your new cables. I love tweaking my system by changing out cables too. :)
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Originally Posted by Pat D
However, I do point out that it is the so-called DBT crowd that trusts their hearing. A blind audition requires listening--it's listening without benefit of knowing what component is being used. Those who think they can identify various pieces of equipment in an audition by the sound are often mistaken.
I disagree. If they trusted their hearing, they'd listen and not concern themselves with DBT.
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Originally Posted by Rycher
You see, black isin't really black, it's shades of gray. Green is really blue and yellow. :confused:
You are totally correct in trusting your senses and flipping off the DBTer's. The fact is simple, most people cannot see or hear any difference due to any number of reasons, and just because THEY can't, doesn't mean others can't either. If YOU see it and hear it, good for you. I, for one would love to hear from you after installing your new cables. I love tweaking my system by changing out cables too. :)
The fact with cables is there are many voices in the choir. Depending on the system, certain cables either work or don't. With the Cardas, everything snapped into focus without anything really standing out. They seemed totally neutral. It didn't seem like I was using a cable with a blatant fault that could cover a blatant fault of the system. It was more like a neutral cable correcting the minor faults of the previous cable. That's the best way to upgrade, IMHO!
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Originally Posted by Pat D
However, I do point out that it is the so-called DBT crowd that trusts their hearing.
What a curious comment !
rw
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Originally Posted by musicoverall
I disagree. If they trusted their hearing, they'd listen and not concern themselves with DBT.
What do you think a controlled double blind audition involves? It involves listening. Sighted listening involves knowing what equipment one is using at the time, so it is open to all sorts of biases. The only thing a participant in a double blind audition can depend on is his/her hearing.
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Originally Posted by Pat D
What do you think a controlled double blind audition involves? It involves listening. Sighted listening involves knowing what equipment one is using at the time, so it is open to all sorts of biases. The only thing a participant in a double blind audition can depend on is his/her hearing.
I understand. But it's because you don't trust your hearing that you would feel the need to participate in a double blind test in the first place. Have you seen the Cardas Neutral Reference cable? It's absolutely nothing to look at. It's worse than boring looking. I didn't want to like it because it wasn't huge or brightly colored or have those cute little batteries on it. :) I listened and I trusted what I heard.
What's the big deal? If you tried a new brand of peanut butter and proclaimed it to be the best tasting you've ever had, and I looked at the ingredients of both and said "Gosh, Pat their the same stuff! There can be no difference in taste" - you'd probably tell me I was crazy! And you'd be right! Would you subject yourself to a blind test? If you don't trust your senses because of biases or whatever, I accept that but I don't share that opinion - sorry.
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.......I think when you start relying on graphs, charts, meters and what not, you will eventually lose your senses. Someone who relies on his hearing and trusts his hearing will have more acute hearing and that can be proven! I know I have changed the sound of my system with wires. Simply bi-wiring made a substantial improvement as well as a line conditioner. Musicoverall hit the nail right on the head with his comments........Zapr.
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Total misconception.
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Originally Posted by zapr
.......I think when you start relying on graphs, charts, meters and what not, you will eventually lose your senses. Someone who relies on his hearing and trusts his hearing will have more acute hearing and that can be proven! I know I have changed the sound of my system with wires. Simply bi-wiring made a substantial improvement as well as a line conditioner. Musicoverall hit the nail right on the head with his comments........Zapr.
What does a controlled blind audition have to do with graphs, charts and meters (except for level matching)? The results depend on listening, purely and simply. Sighted auditions tend to be biased by knowing what the equipment is, simply knowing which is which. This applies both to difference testing and preference testing.
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He hears a difference, many people do. I know I've both heard and seen small, subtle improvements by changing cables and such. I don't need a blind A/B/X test or a DBTer to tell me that it's been proven that I imagined these differences. People are still to this day burned at the stake because they believe in a diety that they can't prove exists, yet they firmly believe in it. Who cares if you can't heat any difference. Some of us do, and if we're spending the cash to add these small minor upgrades to our systems, then that's our choosing. Like I always say: it's only money, I'll make more. ;)
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Originally Posted by Rycher
He hears a difference, many people do. I know I've both heard and seen small, subtle improvements by changing cables and such. I don't need a blind A/B/X test or a DBTer to tell me that it's been proven that I imagined these differences. People are still to this day burned at the stake because they believe in a diety that they can't prove exists, yet they firmly believe in it. Who cares if you can't heat any difference. Some of us do, and if we're spending the cash to add these small minor upgrades to our systems, then that's our choosing. Like I always say: it's only money, I'll make more. ;)
Here, here. I can hear differences, it's my money, and it's not that important in the long run whether or not I'm biased by my visual system if I enjoy the music my system reproduces.
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Originally Posted by Pat D
What does a controlled blind audition have to do with graphs, charts and meters (except for level matching)? The results depend on listening, purely and simply. Sighted auditions tend to be biased by knowing what the equipment is, simply knowing which is which. This applies both to difference testing and preference testing.
........A lot of people here say if it can't be measured then it isn't so. Sighted auditions tend to be biased? Prove it! The results depend on listening, purely and simply. Exactly.......Zapr.
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Originally Posted by zapr
........A lot of people here say if it can't be measured then it isn't so. Sighted auditions tend to be biased? Prove it! The results depend on listening, purely and simply. Exactly.......Zapr.
Well, this thread might get you to thinking, unless you truly believe that denial simply is a river in Egypt. The authors of the posted link with the test obviously think so.
http://forums.audioreview.com/audio-lab-tweaks-mods-diy/golden-ears-fail-again-9347.html
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Originally Posted by zapr
........A lot of people here say if it can't be measured then it isn't so. Sighted auditions tend to be biased? Prove it! The results depend on listening, purely and simply. Exactly.......Zapr.
Yeah, go to my last thread in the Audio Lab. Sighted testing is for the birds.
http://forums.audioreview.com/showth...8332#post68332
PatD: why argue with some of these people? You may as well start hitting yourself in the head with a brick. That way you can descend to their intelligence level.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zapr
........A lot of people here say if it can't be measured then it isn't so. Sighted auditions tend to be biased? Prove it! The results depend on listening, purely and simply. Exactly.......Zapr.
Who here says categorically that if it can't be measured it can't be so? In any case, this is another issue.
In sighted listening, one is depending on the appearance and the knowledge of what one is listening to. A controlled DBT eliminates the effects of all influences except the actual sound.
If you don't want to accept that human perception tends to be biased, if you want to go against established science, that's fine with me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics
Eyespy has some psychoacoustic references:
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioand...epage/id4.html
Here are the results of some DBTs.
http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_data.htm
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Originally Posted by magictooth
PatD: why argue with some of these people? You may as well start hitting yourself in the head with a brick. That way you can descend to their intelligence level.
Wow! Having a bad day? I saw your posts in the Audio Lab. I'm telling you, you're listening to too much distortion through your cables. Try a swap and lighten up! Or is verbal abuse from your computer chair as far as you can ascend on the "intelligence level"?
Some of us don't agree. I can't imagine why you find disagreement so threatening!
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Originally Posted by musicoverall
Wow! Having a bad day? I saw your posts in the Audio Lab. I'm telling you, you're listening to too much distortion through your cables. Try a swap and lighten up! Or is verbal abuse from your computer chair as far as you can ascend on the "intelligence level"?
Some of us don't agree. I can't imagine why you find disagreement so threatening!
Some people believe they are on a mission to help the world by telling them of the effects of self doubt. They take these things real serious. Best thing is to just ignore them. :confused:
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Originally Posted by musicoverall
Wow! Having a bad day? I saw your posts in the Audio Lab. I'm telling you, you're listening to too much distortion through your cables. Try a swap and lighten up! Or is verbal abuse from your computer chair as far as you can ascend on the "intelligence level"?
Some of us don't agree. I can't imagine why you find disagreement so threatening!
Actually a pretty good day and week. I had meant to post earlier this week, but it was too busy at work. I don't find disagreement threatening at all. I find people stating as FACT, when really what they are trying to pass off is mere conjecture, objectionable. The promotion of falsehoods irks me to no end.
I'm certainly willing to rebut ANYTHING that you have to say about sighted testing being better (or equal) to blind testing. I have tried blind testing with CD players, cables, and amps. Am I asking you to prove to me that you can hear a difference? No. I am trying to get you to prove to YOURSELF that you can hear a difference. If after a blind test, you can hear a difference, then come back and give me some grief. Actually if you can hear any difference in cables in an honest blind test, you should find the guy who is willing to pay you $20K to prove it to him. That would be worth your time. Then you can afford to get a complete set of Nordost connectors.
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Originally Posted by Rycher
I know I've both heard and seen small, subtle improvements by changing cables and such. I don't need a blind A/B/X test or a DBTer to tell me that it's been proven that I imagined these differences.
In actuality, you may need to :)
There are too many variables (such as memory or emotions) that can influence your judgment of cables. For example, one of AA remember tried out Canare 4S11 speaker cable in his system, and at first he thought that "The highs were gone." But next time, he thought "cables sounding much much better." And now, he think the sound is flat up and down the range.
So how do you explain so many discrepancy in judging cables when sighted testing is involve?
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...es/102996.html
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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
In actuality, you may need to :)
There are too many variables (such as memory or emotions) that can influence your judgment of cables. For example, one of AA remember tried out Canare 4S11 speaker cable in his system, and at first he thought that "The highs were gone." But next time, he thought "cables sounding much much better." And now, he think the sound is flat up and down the range.
So how do you explain so many discrepancy in judging cables when sighted testing is involve?
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...es/102996.html
Hey Tony, I've read all the same aticles as you have on the testing, and I am completly aware of all the "memory loss", "memory retention", and so forth. I've heard for years from both camps, and have gotten my share of ass-kickin from plenty of people on these subjects. But in the end I realised that I don't need to prove anything to anyone, much less have anyone prove anything to me. I trust my ears and eyes, even if what I see conflicts with what you see. At the end of the day it's my money spent on my system. There are a lot of people that will try their hardest, as if their very existence depended on it, to prove to you that they are right and you are wrong. The reality is that there are too many shades of grey to call it black and white. What one person tests as positive, another can test as negative. It's all opinion. And while I'm happy and interested in hearing your opinion on certain subjects, please understand that I too have an opinion. ;)
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Originally Posted by magictooth
Actually a pretty good day and week. I had meant to post earlier this week, but it was too busy at work. I don't find disagreement threatening at all. I find people stating as FACT, when really what they are trying to pass off is mere conjecture, objectionable. The promotion of falsehoods irks me to no end.
I'm certainly willing to rebut ANYTHING that you have to say about sighted testing being better (or equal) to blind testing. I have tried blind testing with CD players, cables, and amps. Am I asking you to prove to me that you can hear a difference? No. I am trying to get you to prove to YOURSELF that you can hear a difference. If after a blind test, you can hear a difference, then come back and give me some grief. Actually if you can hear any difference in cables in an honest blind test, you should find the guy who is willing to pay you $20K to prove it to him. That would be worth your time. Then you can afford to get a complete set of Nordost connectors.
Well, my statements are usually all anecdotal, at least as they pertain to how something sounds. I couldn't possibly comment on everyone else's ears or how their system interacts. If the cable itself were all that was involved, it might be different but I haven't tried all cables with all ancillary equipment. So it's anecdotal, the same as if I were to say that Clifford Brown is a great trumpet player. You may disagree.
If you've done blind tests on CDP's, do you have access to a Rega Planet, perchance? Not the 2000 model - the original. I'm going to try to find one and do a blind test. There's no way that thing wasn't altered in manufacture to sound different. If so, it's quite possible that cables can be made to sound different, no?
What's the scoop on the $20K guy? Is the test in my home on my system? Do I need 100% correct answers or is statistical significance enough? What's the timeframe? Is the test "honest"? I think it depends on these and other answers if it's truly worth my time or if he's just set up a test to get the answers he wants and to save his money.
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Originally Posted by Rycher
Some people believe they are on a mission to help the world by telling them of the effects of self doubt. They take these things real serious. Best thing is to just ignore them. :confused:
I suppose. I'd just hate to have to second guess each and every sensory observation I made every day. It must be awful and I do feel bad for them.
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