Fake EE Degree

[Chuck]

This was only his second posting at this web site and he has already questioned the credentials of people who post here who claim or appear to be engineers. Why would he do that? If the answer isn't obvious to you, ask it again and again until you get the right answer. Do not stop if you are starting to get a headache. It may hurt but it will be worth it when the truth finally dawns on you.

Your own words here show your skills at making objective skeptical judgements, so there is nothing left to discuss. You apparently need a reality check, so we'll check in with Mtrycraft. Let's you and I just let it drop and let Mtry have his say. We both agree that he will be objective, right?

MTRYCRAFTS: Do you think that there is only one possibility, as Skeptic has asserted, or do you think that his thinking comes form some kind of paranoid delusion? Aren't there other, more likely, explinations than the guy being a shill?
I’d explain a few to Skeptic but it seems that his mind is closed; Guess that means he’s using a misleading moniker. Do you agree?
Thanks in advance Mtry, I know you'll be unbiased and objective, even if Skeptic can't quite manage to follow your example.

[Bill L]

Chuck - Stupid jerk? Crummy gear? Umm.. I don't recall using those phrases. When I say people would have me buy gear without listening to it I'm referring to the Placebo Effect. OK, maybe I should have said people are telling us to listen to the gear and ignore anything we hear that is different from what they hear - it's our imagination if we don't agree with their assessment. That's what placebo boils down to on this board. My point is, placebo means you can't trust your ears to judge the merit of an AUDIO component! Call me crazy but that sounds absurd to me.

[Rockwell]

You overlook some of the most important factors. "Big mistake."

People have to have some basis for any decision. Are you actually advising the purchase of audio equipment without listening to it first. If so all I can say is that it is the most idiotic idea every proposed on this or any other audio forum.

Exactly WHAT do you expect people to do, Mtry? Is everyone supposed to get an EE degree before they purchase audio equipment? Your position is totally unsupportable, in spite of the fallibility of our senses. We all, including you, have to make decisions based on the best information we have available. When it comes to audio, all most people have is their ears. I didn't realize that you were the extremist who thinks a pig in a poke is better than using the best information we have available. I'm shocked!

Me thinks perhaps your words here don't actually reflect your thinking. If they do, then you might want to consider trying to find another hobby.

What makes you think your advice is going to lead to greater end-user satisfaction than anyone else's advice? The whole idea of buying audio gear based on the advice of someone else is totally misguided. Hell man, if we do that, we'll all be buying exotic cables, becuae the reviewers love them so much. Big mistake!

I think what he is saying is that some things are worth listening to and some aren't. For the things that aren't, like wires that are unlikely to change the sound, the buyer may want to use more rigorous testing or avoid auditioning them all together. Of course, it is up to the buyer to decide what is worth listening to, but I think that most people assume or are told that wires will make their system better. I would take the advice of an engineer over some salesman or wire evangelist on what is likely to improve sound.

What cemented my own conclusons about the flawed nature of wire sonics are the reviews and comparisons of digital cables, cables which cannot impart any signature, but people can still imagine them.

[skeptic]

I think what he is saying is that some things are worth listening to and some aren't. For the things that aren't, like wires that are unlikely to change the sound, the buyer may want to use more rigorous testing or avoid auditioning them all together.

Among those few I've encountered who can be taken seriously about the benefit of certain wires, they admit that the improvements are at best subtle. But how many times do you hear people say this wire blew away all of the others or that there was a drastic improvement. Even Jon Risch tells you that you require what he conceives as a high resolution sound system to hear the benefits of these wires yet people whose entire sound systems cost merely a few thousand dollars are spending hundreds on these wires. How did they get the idea that they were worth it? When you read the scientific measurements and the discussion gets down to a few tenths of a decibel at 20khz, you are in a zone well beyond the threshold of what human beings can hear and distinguish. People who have an absolutist mentality with some idealized conception of what audio equipment is about are not in the real world. They think that somehow, if every component achieved its theoretical optimum, there would be perfection in sound reproduction. This ignores the truth which is that the very concept or paradyme is badly flawed and that there is a point of diminishing returns and a point of no returns and any so called improvements are an illusion.

[Chuck]

Hi Bill,

Chuck - Stupid jerk? Crummy gear? Umm.. I don't recall using those phrases.

You didn't. I don't recall anyone saying that you did.
My intent was simply to provide an example of the kind of things many people say when someone disagrees with the things they know or believe related to audio. Sorry if I seemed to be accusing you of saying something you didn't say. It's just that it is what so many say when they visit this forum and come across people who disagree with them. Actually, we hear the very same thing on every audio forum, so it's not correct to single-out AR Cable. It was an example of the way close-minded extremists often behave. Another example can be found in this thread, and it's an example that comes from the other side of the fence. I can't believe that there is a regular here who will attack some one as a shill after only two posts, without anything to indicate that they are indeed a shill, and treat me like a fool when I try to point out their error. That's actually a better example, but when I wrote the last post it hadn't happened yet.

Let me quote the rest of your response before I say any more.

When I say people would have me buy gear without listening to it I'm referring to the Placebo Effect. OK, maybe I should have said people are telling us to listen to the gear and ignore anything we hear that is different from what they hear - it's our imagination if we don't agree with their assessment. That's what placebo boils down to on this board. My point is, placebo means you can't trust your ears to judge the merit of an AUDIO component! Call me crazy but that sounds absurd to me.

No, I won't call you crazy. In fact, I believe I understand how you feel, and why you feel that way. You may even be right. I'm just not ready to conclude that everyone on this forum is a jerk, if for no other reason than that I know a few of the people and they aren't jerks or extremists. Let me tell you what I think is at the root of most of the mean spirited posting we see on audio forums. Then you (and everyone else) can call me crazy.

Things first go bad when someone jumps to an erroneous conclusion regarding someone else. Just look what happens. Some poor guy has finally purchased a high-end audio system after years of reading the audio magazines and day-dreaming. He upgrades his cables, and what he hears blows him away. It doesn't matter one twit for our purposes here whether or not what he heard was due to the cable upgrade or some other factor (perhaps the room was drier and his ESL panels had more output, improving the systems frequency response, or perhaps it was the interconnects, but the guy swapped the cables and heard a difference FOR SOME REASON. If he is inquisitive he may go to the Web and pick up all manner of wire facts and hype, but since he is looking for an explanation of something he's experienced he is unlikely to pay attention to anything that doesn't seem to help answer the "mystery." He may pick up a long list of buzz words, and is likely to feel that he has a good grasp of the topic. Now he may well have a good grasp, but what are the odds? Out of all the theories being thrown about, what are the odds that he'll pick the one that happens to be correct (or the most correct)? If he comes to this forum and relates his experience he will be accused of being a shill for the cable companies, and he will probably go away thinking that this forum is populated by idiots. Would you blame him? Anyone with one eye and half-a-brain can see that wire and interconnect consumers outnumber the shills by a factor of many to one. If the shills were the only ones to buy into the wire theories then there wouldn't be any customers to buy the product. So on that basis alone even a fool can see that most who post such experiences are NOT going to be shills for some audio or cable company.

I could give you a list of people who have done substantial work and testing with alternate wire and cable configurations, and many of them have audio systems that are excellent by any standard (unless that standard is cost or value, the latter being something that is always debatable). The problem with providing such a list is that there are too many people who would see it as a list of tin-ears who are some kind of vermin, and some of the names on the list are well respected high-end audio designers. I will give you a few names, one being myself, and the other being Jneutron (John E.). Also Rod Elliott and GDS over at Audioholics. All except John have audiophile grade loudspeakers, and all have at one time or another been given a lot of crap for stating their findings and conclusions. Everyone I know who has looked into it in any depth at all has found exactly the same thing. Wire and interconnects can make a difference, but it is always subtle unless something is amiss, and it is rarely an improvement (in terms of accuracy). When there is an audible difference it has always been traced to less accuracy rather than more. As a result, I use relatively modest interconnects with relatively exotic associated equipment. By saying that, on any audio forum, I run the risk of some moron coming along and asserting that I'm either stupid, or simply can't hear the difference on my el-cheap-o Bose boom box. That is just as bad, in every way, as being told that you are a shill for the cable companies because you hear a difference when changing cables. It's stupid, and it's irritating, and it makes audio forums very unpleasant at times.

Bill, do you see what I'm trying to get at here? We should not have to agree on every issue to be able to have a civil discussion. Why do audio discussions so frequently deteriorate into name calling? Communication requires some effort on both ends, especially when the topic is something we're passionate about (like art, music, religion, or politics). If it weren't for the trouble makers we could probably discuss our differences in a rational way, but the disruptions tend to polarize everyone to one degree or another. People complain about the way they are treated here when they try to discuss their experiences with wire and interconnects. I get the same treatment over on AA Cable if I try to talk about my experiences, so all the audio forums are really the same. They're fun places as long as you can ignore the troublemakers.

In an effort to help Chris make this a better forum I've started reporting all obnoxious posts, and to help keep myself from getting upset over the most obnoxious posts I've started using the "blocked posters" list provided on this forum. If the idea catches on it won't be long before the most obnoxious contributors have only themselves to get nasty with.

What I'm trying to get you to see, Bill, is that even though you and I see much of this quite differently, I think we both feel the same way about the nasty way some treat others. It is contagious, because when we're abused we tend to get upset and this can lead us to add fuel to the fire. I've done it in the past but am trying to do better. Blocking certain posters will no doubt help. And Bill, what is to be gained by reading the drivel of guys who advise people to buy without listening, accuse consumers of being shills, and/or assume that anyone who disagrees with them is defective in some way.? I'm convinced that such people are best ignored. Do you agree?

Do you see that even though we may disagree on some things, we both get abused by some when we relate our experiences? If you do then I'm sure you understand why I say that I think I know how you feel.

See ya,

Chuck

[Chuck]

I think what he is saying is that some things are worth listening to and some aren't. For the things that aren't, like wires that are unlikely to change the sound, the buyer may want to use more rigorous testing or avoid auditioning them all together. Of course, it is up to the buyer to decide what is worth listening to, but I think that most people assume or are told that wires will make their system better. I would take the advice of an engineer over some salesman or wire evangelist on what is likely to improve sound.

What cemented my own conclusons about the flawed nature of wire sonics are the reviews and comparisons of digital cables, cables which cannot impart any signature, but people can still imagine them.

Actually, he has now implied that I'm stupid because I don't believe that everyone who reports hearing differences in wires is a shill. The man is knowledgeable, but his perceptions of the motives of others is very skewed. Don't you agree? Cable consumers have to outnumber the shills, and guys who buy cables do so because they believe something they've seen in an ad or review. They believe they know what they're talking about, and will show up on audio forums to defend their decisions. On that basis it is totally irrational to believe that one can know after two posts that someone else is a shill. Do YOU think that the guys who post about their subjective experiences are shills, or do you agree with me on this matter. The issue is not the good points Skeptic made, but rather his jumping to an unsupportable conclusions about those who have posted here. That would include the comments he's made about me. Do YOU think I'm stupid because I don't think that every report of "cable sonics" comes from a shill? That is clearly what Skeptic thinks, just read his posts and see how stubborn he is about it, and how rude he has been with me. Is this your buddy? Can you make him listen to reason? I could sure use some help.

I appreciate your comments, but it does seem that you missed the point. Skeptic didn't, but stands by his half-baked conclusions. Surely he stands alone.

Thanks,

Chuck

[skeptic]

Actually, he has now implied that I'm stupid because I don't believe that everyone who reports hearing differences in wires is a shill.

Not stupid Chuck. At least not in the sense you meant it. Gullable yes. Naive, yes. Egotistical yes. Unwilling to consider that people with more knowledge and experience than you have know how easy it is to be tricked in this business and that you probably have been had, yes. Stupid in that sense, yes. Stupid for not being more critical and demanding of proof that you are getting something of real value for your money, yes. But you stupid? Well, only if you don't learn from your mistakes.

"Cable consumers have to outnumber the shills, and guys who buy cables do so because they believe something they've seen in an ad or review. They believe they know what they're talking about, and will show up on audio forums to defend their decisions. "

Oh thank you so much for making this point for me Chuck. I couldn't have said it any better myself. They read the ads and articles and heard what the guy in the store had to say, convinced themselves that it was right, and in a few short minutes of listening were certain that they were buying their magic bullet. This is the perfect customer for these guys, the know-it-all who read a few ads, an article or two, and now is an expert. You can call this a ripple effect where just a few well placed shills can multiply the number of customers and sales manyfold. Kind of like a chain letter or pyramid scheme. And this is the true purpose of Cable Asylum as well. To start that snowball rolling down the hill and scooping up money all along the way.

As for a guy who on his second post is already challenging engineers because real knowledge is a threat to this scheme, there could hardly be any doubt. But to a know-it-all who only questions the obvious and gets tricked by every sleeze monkey who comes along, all I can say is good luck. Your first cable will not be your last. Nor your second. Nor your fifth. And if you have any money left over, after two or three dozen, you might just begin to think maybe the whole thing wasn't worth it. That is if your false pride and big ego can give way for even one second to allow in the thought that you might just be wrong and that you've been had. PC Tower is getting there. Not quite yet but after a few years here, he's almost heading in that direction. Fortunely as a successful attorney, all the money he looks back on that he wasted on worthless junk cables is just so much water under the bridge that he rarely thinks about. But then again he must consider what a difference it might have made had he taken that same money and bought a car, a cruise, or some other toy he passed up instead because he didn't want to shell out the cash at the time he wanted it. But I'm sure you have so much money, that thought will never cross your mind either.

[skeptic]

"It doesn't matter one twit for our purposes here whether or not what he heard was due to the cable upgrade or some other factor"

On the contrary, that's all that matters Chuck. That's what we are discussing here. Whether all of the money and hype about cables has anything it it to do with the real world. In other words, MONEY.

You seem to have two standards. On the one hand, you are a Philadelphia lawyer argueing against the obvious that someone who has posted here twice and is ranting against the real knowledge of engineers isn't a shill and on the other taking the claims of people who make and sell audio cables at face value, not to be challenged and that it doesn't matter if the cables do anything, as long as it feels good owning them.

I don't think you're a shill. I think this is kind of like a relgious cult for you and you feel very uncomfortable being among the non believers who whill challenge the dogma you believe in at every turn.

"It's just that it is what so many say when they visit this forum and come across people who disagree with them. Actually, we hear the very same thing on every audio forum, so it's not correct to single-out AR Cable. It was an example of the way close-minded extremists often behave. "

You won't hear it at Cable Asylum. The owner Rod said several months ago his mission was to make Cable Asylum a forum where only positive experiences with cables are discussed. So if you are in a cult of believers, that will be a comfortable place. No non believers are allowed.

Am I a close minded extremist. ABSOLUTELY YES. I don't take baloney at face value. I demand proof when something someone tries to sell me makes no sense. And when they don't produce it but just hand out more baloney, I reject it. People who make decisions based on evidence and logic are close minded to fantasies. And to that I plead guilty as charged.

"Some poor guy has finally purchased a high-end audio system after years of reading the audio magazines and day-dreaming. He upgrades his cables, and what he hears blows him away. It doesn't matter one twit for our purposes here whether or not what he heard was due to the cable upgrade or some other factor "

That's exactly how they rope the suckers in. Getting inexperienced people with no real knowledge to daydream filling their heads with worthless fancies and fears so that they will budget some of their precious money for the contingency that the cable guys might be right. And when you hear the BIG LIE often enough and don't know any better, you begin to believe it.

"He may pick up a long list of buzz words, and is likely to feel that he has a good grasp of the topic. "

Isn't that how you came to believe in cables yourself Chuck?

"If the shills were the only ones to buy into the wire theories then there wouldn't be any customers to buy the product. So on that basis alone even a fool can see that most who post such experiences are NOT going to be shills for some audio or cable company."

Oh so true. Shills sell the product. It's their victims who buy it. I never called you a shill. You are the perfect victim. After enough time you easily can spot the difference. But the shill is the victim's guru and when you are a true believer as you are, you don't like seeing your idols knocked off their pedistals.

" could give you a list of people who have done substantial work and testing with alternate wire and cable configurations....and all have at one time or another been given a lot of crap for stating their findings and conclusions."

If their work does not conform to rigorous scientific methods that prove the validity of their conclusions to other scientists, not hobbyists who read ad copy and consumer articles, then they will get crap for it because their so called work is "crap." No they do not get the benefit of the doubt. Real science doesn't work that way.

"Everyone I know who has looked into it in any depth at all has found exactly the same thing. Wire and interconnects can make a difference,"

There is not one shred of published evidence which can be held to rigorous scientific scrutiny to suggest that this is true. A few tenths of a db at 20khz difference doesn't add up to a row of beans. At least not to a pro. I'll bet many of the people you cited here are in the business of selling cables and make money from it one way or another. Their testimony can hardly be considered objective or unbiased.

"In an effort to help Chris make this a better forum I've started reporting all obnoxious posts, and to help keep myself from getting upset over the most obnoxious posts I've started using the "blocked posters" list provided on this forum. "

So now you are the self apointed assistant censor expecting the site administrator to ban anybody who really challenges what you say or want to read. I am hardly even the least bit surprised. This is the same kind of tyranical mentality that I and others didn't put up with from Jon Risch. So he left and went to CA. You are too late. He already has the job of censor in chief there. But you won't be able to do much complaining about the people you don't like if you block their messages. Kind of self defeating. And kind of flying in the face of human nature. Most people want to hear what other people have to say about them and their ideas. Even if it isn't very flattering.

"Do you see that even though we may disagree on some things, we both get abused by some when we relate our experiences?"

If by abused you mean that your unsupported claims for the superiority of certain products will be challenged you are right. That's what we do here. Nobody gets a free pass to make illogical claims and then just fly away. Not at this site so far. That's what distinguishes it from CA which at least IMO is an electronic billboard for the cable industry.

BTW, with all of the back and forth, it might have escaped you that ob130 never posted a second time to even come back and deny that he is a shill. Why don't you write him an e-mail and ask him yourself? See what he has to say about it. This topic seems to trouble you far more than anybody else. As for abuse, when people who have spent the better part of a lifetime studying something using the full power of their brains are so openly and blatantly challenged as ob130 did, that might be considered abuse. Did that ever occur to you?

[Bill L]

I didn't miss your point - it's been repeated here ad nauseum. "If I can't here it then nobody can" and "Prove it, prove it, prove it or you have a placebo problem". There's your unsupported claim. Placebo effect exists and can influence people - but not to the extent that is suggested here, as a blanket win-all-arguments finality that supposes everyone who believes in cable sonics is afflicted. It's a witch hunt.

[skeptic]

It's a witch hunt.

Can you explain why after about 30 years since these products first appeared on the market, not one manufacturer of the countless dozens or even hundreds of different companies and thousands of different models has ever once demonstrated through a fair double blind test that their products are in any way different in their audible performance let alone proven that they are better? I'll give you two reasons then. 'The first is that they couldn't because they don't sound different. The second is that they don't have to. They have a large enough market to keep them in profits without ever showing anyone that their products are any different than the $1 and $2 products they replaced. When you find evidence that this isn't true, then the witch burnings will end. Until then, anybody got a match?

[Rockwell]

I didn't miss your point - it's been repeated here ad nauseum. "If I can't here it then nobody can" .

I am sure you can link to an example of this.

[E-Stat]

Can you explain why after about 30 years since these products first appeared on the market, not one manufacturer of the countless dozens or even hundreds of different companies and thousands of different models has ever once demonstrated through a fair double blind test that their products are in any way different in their audible performance let alone proven that they are better?

The same observation can be made for virtually any component in the audio chain. Has anyone performed DBT testing to ascertain whether or not there are any audible differences between the Bose Acoustimass speakers and Quad ESLs? Has anyone performed DBT testing to ascertain whether or not there are any audible differences between a Dual 1215 and a VPI TNT-HRX?

You either hear the differences or you don't.

rw

[Bill L]

I'll go with your second reason. They don't have to. The cables stand or fall on their own. As do other products whose evaluation relies on sensory perception like colognes, food, art, and fabric softener. To some there is no appreciation for the subtle differences. To others it's a world of difference. Audio is no different. This talk of rampant placebo and obligatory proof is obsessive and, frankly, pompous. Why should the cable companies listen to you?

[mtrycraft]

What I was referring to is the fact that speaker sound can be biased by other senses entering the picture, not that 'everyone' will pick the same speaker sound.
What Toole has demonstared that people will pick different speakers when they are not biased by their sight sending useless information as brand name, style, etc.

[skeptic]

Why should the cable companies listen to you?

They shouldn't. They are making money hand over fist. If they aren't afraid of the FTC, why should they care what I have to say. But if the FTC ever got around to doing what they should be doing, they would have to listen. They would have to cut the crap. They'd have to put up or shut up.

[Chuck]

What I was referring to is the fact that speaker sound can be biased by other senses entering the picture, not that 'everyone' will pick the same speaker sound.
What Toole has demonstared that people will pick different speakers when they are not biased by their sight sending useless information as brand name, style, etc.

OK, that makes sense. Expectations can color any experience, so I guess I didn't see proof of that as coming from Toole.

Did you get my e-mail yet? I don't care to revisit the portion of the thread where the trouble is afoot, so I don't even know if you've responded to the forum posts where I asked you for a response. Have ya?

Some of this stuff makes me think that the forum may not have changed as much as I'd hoped. Different party line but same foolishness, if ya know what I mean? I finally heard from Chris on the matter(s) but he's not even going to be able to look at the posts until Monday. I'll probably keep a lower profile until the mess is sorted out. It all reminds me of Pythagoras and those pesky irrational numbers.

See ya,

Chuck

[Chuck]

I think what he is saying is that some things are worth listening to and some aren't. For the things that aren't, like wires that are unlikely to change the sound, the buyer may want to use more rigorous testing or avoid auditioning them all together. Of course, it is up to the buyer to decide what is worth listening to, but I think that most people assume or are told that wires will make their system better. I would take the advice of an engineer over some salesman or wire evangelist on what is likely to improve sound.

What cemented my own conclusons about the flawed nature of wire sonics are the reviews and comparisons of digital cables, cables which cannot impart any signature, but people can still imagine them.

Whoops! MAJOR WHOOPS! I think I responded to this post last night, thinking that you were talking about someone else (not Mtrycraft). My mistake. Guess I'm still adjusting to the new forum format. I'm not going to revisit that part of this thread because the behavior there is objectionable, so I'm just going to post this correction in response to outer post (here). Sorry for the confusion.

Skeptic is the one calling people names and misrepresenting things because he's hung-up on the shill think. The real reason he attacked Bo is because Bo struck a nerve. Before the forum was remodeled Skeptic sometimes claimed that he was an EE in his efforts to intimidate others. Mtrycraft and Jneutron can both verify this fact (the archives have apparently been deleted). He saw Bo's post as an attack because he's guilty of doing what Bo was asking about. When I made the mistake of pointing out that it was illogical to assume that Bo was a shill he attacked me for the same reason. He is probably ashamed of what he's done in the past and is likely afraid that everyone will find out. Unfortunately he doesn't realize that senseless attacks based on thin-air only discredit the attacker. Anyway, sorry I made an error and thought you were talking about Skeptic.

Mtry, sorry buddy, didn't mean that you'd been acting like Skeptic. Sometimes he's as reasonable as you, but at others he's something else. I've added him to my ignore list, and don't intend to even visit the portion of the thread where he's behaving so foolishly. Hopefully you've responded to my posts there. (Thanks.)

My bad guys. I'll try to be more careful in the future (but Murphy is always out to get me, so please don’t expect perfection).

See ya,

Chuck

[mtrycraft]

You overlook some of the most important factors. "Big mistake."

People have to have some basis for any decision. Are you actually advising the purchase of audio equipment without listening to it first. If so all I can say is that it is the most idiotic idea every proposed on this or any other audio forum.

Exactly WHAT do you expect people to do, Mtry? Is everyone supposed to get an EE degree before they purchase audio equipment? Your position is totally unsupportable, in spite of the fallibility of our senses. We all, including you, have to make decisions based on the best information we have available. When it comes to audio, all most people have is their ears. I didn't realize that you were the extremist who thinks a pig in a poke is better than using the best information we have available. I'm shocked!

Me thinks perhaps your words here don't actually reflect your thinking. If they do, then you might want to consider trying to find another hobby.

What makes you think your advice is going to lead to greater end-user satisfaction than anyone else's advice? The whole idea of buying audio gear based on the advice of someone else is totally misguided. Hell man, if we do that, we'll all be buying exotic cables, becuae the reviewers love them so much. Big mistake!

Let's examine what was posted, what I responded to with what.

This is whatwas posted:

The only thing I would say is trust your ears over any advice given on this board, or any other for that matter!

He wants you to disregard everything and trust your ears completely.

You agree with this completely?

I made a comment based on knowledge gained over many years, how gullible one can be, biased, etc to fully trust what one hears and not rely on other inputs and others knowledge on the subject.

Big mistake based on what we know about human gullibility and how easy it is to confuse senses.

Is this not accurate? Senses cannot be fooled? We are not gullible?

I said nothing about not listening, you disagree?

I didn't get into what else one should know or do to make better choices, decisions.
One should know a bit more than just to listen and go off blindly on that perception.

[skeptic]

I rarely if ever mention that I am an engineer and then almost only when someone directly challenges my qualifications to say what I have said. Of course on an internet message board like this, all you really need to qualifiy is a moniker and registering to log on. I stick by what I have said. And I stick by my contention that arguements should stand or fall on their own merit and not on the credentials of those who made them. Plenty of engineers and scientists have not only said things that made no sense but turned out to be shills acting in their own self financial interest. In this case, it stick with my original conclusion that ob130 was a shill and so far I have not seen a second posting from him denying it.

Did it hit a nerve when I read his comment? Not really. I'm accustomed to being attacked for not being part of the audiophile "in crowd." Not only do I see the whole cable industry as a scam but I much prefer cds to vinyl (I still own a large collection of vinyl and a few turntables) and tubes to transisitors (I still have a few old tube amplifiers floating around my basement.) I prefer the bass of acoustic suspension speakers to ported speakers, put them right next to a wall and use an equalizer and oh yes, tone controls. In other words, I'm living in the past. And on those rare occasions when I hear current "audiophile" equipment, I don't regret it. That's because when a pair of 8" two way speakers costs several thousand dollars and amplifiers costing thousands don't even raise an eyebrow any more, I am reminded that contrary to the long term trend in every other area of electronics, in high end audio, the consumer pays more and more to get less and less. And in the area of cables, it has reached its extreme. A pile of money for an illusion. People who own this over-rated junk don't like to hear that, but most of all, people who sell it hate it the most. Especially when it comes from someone who might know what he's talking about. That's how I knew immediately bo130 was a shill. I know what I'm talking about there too because I've seen his ilk so many times.

[mtrycraft]

.Did you get my e-mail yet? See ya,Chuck

Yes and sent you one back but now I am not sure which post you were referring originally. I also answerd that one too on the board, I think

[JoeW2]

To me, the real red flag is raised by those who demand skepticism for everything but thier own opinions. The very second that someone says, or implies, your disagreement with them is evidence of your idiocy, rest assured that you are dealing with an idiot.
mtrycrafts is the posterboy of this approach. People who disagree are automaticaly presumed to be victims of advertising. Not skeptical enough, he will tell you.
But, when people express skepticism about his views, he lumps them in with Miss Cleo subscribers, alien abduction fanatics, and bigfoot enthusiasts. This is, quite simply, the mark of a moron. I don't mean this as a personal dig, it's a critique of the rhetoric.
Trust your senses and your sensibilities. You may be right, you may be wrong. For that matter, mtrycrafts may be right or may be wrong. Quite frankly, it doesn't much matter. This is an opinion forum. Take it for what it's worth.

[skeptic]

"...This is, quite simply, the mark of a moron. I don't mean this as a personal dig..."

[Beckman]

WOW, take it easy. Some of you people are CRAZY. Talking about beating wives, calling people liars, personal attacks.

I do not have college degree. I am graduating this May with an Engineering Physics Degree (10 more credits). Engineering Physics is a combination of Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, and Physics. Basicly someone to bridge the gap between Mechanical and Electrical Engineering. However, I have taken mostly EE classes and will graduate 20 credits away from an EE degree.

In Platos "Appology", Socrates says (in so many words) he is smart because he knows that he doesn't know everything. I do think that there are EE's that frequent this site that think their degree and their experiance makes them know everything. There are those too that swear they can hear distinct differences and get quite angry when people tell them otherwise.

Socrates was given the death penalty for his questionong of authority. Mtry is ridiculed in the same way for his questioning of people's opinions.

When someones opinion is questioned they tend to take it as a personal attack and there ego is hurt.

I wonder if anyone that frequents this site has a big ego?

[mtrycraft]

I do not have college degree. I am graduating this May with an Engineering Physics Degree (10 more credits). Engineering Physics is a combination of Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, and Physics. Basicly someone to bridge the gap between Mechanical and Electrical Engineering. However, I have taken mostly EE classes and will graduate 20 credits away from an EE degree.


That's great. Why not also do that 20 credits for a double degree? Talk the school and parents into it

[skeptic]

"I do think that there are EE's that frequent this site that think their degree and their experiance makes them know everything. There are those too that swear they can hear distinct differences and get quite angry when people tell them otherwise."

I think you'll find that far from thinking they know everything, most electrical engineers are well aware of their limitiations. At least it's my experience that the good ones are (physicists are another story.) What seems like a complete mystery and totally escaped you becomes crystal clear and everybody becomes an expert ---- after they throw the switch and the smoke clears. Thank god that never happened to me but every electrical engineer knows someone it did happen to and knows that it was only a matter of luck if it hasn't happened to him.

Engineers are always ready and willing to learn more. But there is a difference between being taught and being scammed. Degreed engineers have sat in enough classrooms, taken enough courses, heard enough lectures to know the difference between receiving real knowledge and receiving a snow job. And if they don't know it right out of school, they learn it from real world of experience from the endless parade of salesmen who knock on their door and try to sell them something over a liquid lunch. One occupational hazard of being an engineer....getting fat and drinking too much from all of the free food and booze that come your way as part of the job.