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  1. #1
    The Bargain Hunter
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    Question Do you really get what you pay for?

    I havn't done much research into speaker cables but enough to know you can spend a hefty amount on them.I'm still pretty new to higher end gear and have lots to learn and little to spend.Recently I made up a pair using 14ga wire that is copper on both strands rather than typical speaker wire with one side being silver in color,I started with 100 feet and cut it into 4-25ft lengths and use 2 for each cable,1 wire for positive and 1 for negative,It seemed to make quite a (positive)difference in the sound of my maggie SMGs.Now for the questions-Is it wire size or insulation or a combination of both that makes a better cable(wire) or am I just a newbie without a clue? Thought I'd mention that the wire I used was actually intended for outside use electrical lighting etc.and was about $12 for the 100 ft.

  2. #2
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    There are companies that use many different approaches to cables. My experience is that high quality cables do make a difference. If you are using Maggies I believe you will also notice an improvement. There will be other here that will tell you cable don't make any difference. The bottom line is you will eventually have to try it for yourself. A friend here, Hermanv, makes cables and can tell you more about what effects what. He found that lower frequencies need a heavier gauge while higher frequencies like lighter wire. Some companies like Transparent and MIT design circuits that go into the cables to counter various effects, mainly what they call the antenna effect. Obviously, good shielding helps. Some companies like Siltech use a blend of copper, silver and gold wire. I'm sure that some of the companies that jump on the bandwagon aren't exactly above board with their product but most are or there wouldn't be a thriving market for quality cables.

    Those already mentioned are good cables and Kimber, Cardas, Audioquest are good. There are a host of other brands I'm not even familiar with. It's worth trying a few brands because you will find certain cables work better with certain equipment.

    I feel I got my moneys worth in each set of cables I bought. The amount of improvement I gained to price ratio was satisfying to me

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Here is another vote for cables making a difference. Currently I am using Audioquest Slate in a biwire configuration. The sound is smooth, extended and detailed. I have also used long term Nordost and AlphaCore. My preference is for solid core cables because to my ears there is a haze to stranded cables I do not hear with solid conductors. My IC's are AlphaCore Micro Purl and they were about $80.00 a pair. The AQ Slates I purchased from www.audioadvisor.com because they bought in bulk and terminate the cable themselves. Factory terminated they would have been about $350 for a 10 feet pair but with the no frills packaging with shipping they were $237.

    I doubt I will ever go above that price range for speaker cables. IC's I may be spending a little more in the future. If I had a $60,000 system I might try some of the very high end cables but since this is not going to happen I try to find good cables that make sense in my system. Keep your mind and ears open and you will find cables that work well in your system.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  4. #4
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Use 10 or 11 gauge cable for the maggies. It really makes a difference in the sound and eases the load on your amp because of less resistance. For good cables that wont color the music check out www.bluejeancable.com These are inexpensive and will do the job. To me a good cable is any cable that doesnt add or take away anything from the signal reaching the speaker. Thats the best you can ask for.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
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    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  5. #5
    The Bargain Hunter
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    It will be wire for now

    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    Use 10 or 11 gauge cable for the maggies. It really makes a difference in the sound and eases the load on your amp because of less resistance. For good cables that wont color the music check out www.bluejeancable.com These are inexpensive and will do the job. To me a good cable is any cable that doesnt add or take away anything from the signal reaching the speaker. Thats the best you can ask for.
    I just bought another used power amp yesterday so I won't be spending anymore for at least a little while.Wouldn't 2 wires as I described be equal to or larger than say 10ga?

  6. #6
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I don't know how much of a difference high priced cables will make over a std set of 12 or 10 ga cables. But if I sent the money for Maggies and HQ amps, I'd at least try them out.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  7. #7
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Cables in general

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott W
    I havn't done much research into speaker cables but enough to know you can spend a hefty amount on them.I'm still pretty new to higher end gear and have lots to learn and little to spend.Recently I made up a pair using 14ga wire that is copper on both strands rather than typical speaker wire with one side being silver in color,I started with 100 feet and cut it into 4-25ft lengths and use 2 for each cable,1 wire for positive and 1 for negative,It seemed to make quite a (positive)difference in the sound of my maggie SMGs.Now for the questions-Is it wire size or insulation or a combination of both that makes a better cable(wire) or am I just a newbie without a clue? Thought I'd mention that the wire I used was actually intended for outside use electrical lighting etc.and was about $12 for the 100 ft.
    My experience has been with entry and mid-range systems. I have found that interconnects and speaker cables occassionally make a very tiny difference, but not that justifies spending hundreds, much less thousands, of dollars -- that money is better spent improving the other components.

    By the way, I also endorse Blue Jeans Cables, especially for interconnects -- truly professional, if not necessarily "audiophile", grade. I have spend 4x or more for several brands of interconnecst that sound no better.

    For longer speaker runs heavier gage is in order. Without going to exotic brands and prices, you might well notice a difference at 25', especially in the bass, by going from 14ga to 12-10ga.
    Last edited by Feanor; 01-07-2008 at 09:57 AM.

  8. #8
    Linear Guy
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    Maggie worship.

    I had maggies and the best cables for them was old fashioned plastic encased 12 ga. multi-strand from Radio Shack. I used it when my monster cable turned green. I think it came in a 50 ft spool. It was cheap. I had Adcom amplification and mid level cd players and tuners etc. I thought it sounded great. Sometimes, I regret not keeping that system. That was before I ever gave any consideration at all to speaker wire.

    So five years later, after a lot of experimenting, I have concluded that even in the most revealing systems, the wires you keep are the ones you don't notice, which probably brings me full circle back to the Radio-Shack wires. You may start and end your journey with simple speaker wires.

  9. #9
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    The point of diminishing returns is a lot lower here than many would want to believe

    You're wise that you're starting out with a solidly constructed pair of decent generic cables. This way you can experiment (read: buy with return privileges) and see exactly what more money buys you in terms of sonic improvements. If you listen carefully and with a jaundiced eye, you may find that any changes are minimal. Many people find this out only after spending mucho money.

    To paraphrase what daviethek said, sometimes you have to spend a lot of money only to later learn that you didn't have to spend a lot of money for similar results.
    Last edited by markw; 01-08-2008 at 02:06 PM.

  10. #10
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    Any time I bought cables of any significance for my system I was able to bring a set home for audition. I have no quoms on returning a product. No one would see my cables behind my entertainment center so I have nothing to brag about or show off. With that out of the way, with gear I've had like Arcam, Krell and Conrad Johnson I've been able to hear differences between cables and whether it was an improvement or not. I've done listening to a group of RCA connects with my Musical Fidelity headphone amp and had no problem hearing distinct differences. When I replaced my Audioquest speaker connects with Transparent, it wasn't a matter of diminishing returns, it was a significant improvement that took my presentation to a new level and the few hundred bucks was a value. Some systems and cables do not have good synergy so you may have to try a couple brands before you get it right, and you will know when it's right. Although Transparent was a good cable with Krell, it tended to have what I can only describe as a slight glare with my CJ and I found Siltech to work better. I started with the New Yorker RCA's, when I went to replace the speaker connects they had an older series on sale that I bought. That particular series gave my system a whole different sound, the mids and highs were light and airy but the bass was very thin. These had to go back. I then went with the NY'er speaker connect and it was right. I don't know if the 2 series had adverse effects on each other or what. When I first got my CJ separates I needed a 2 meter RCA so until I could get a Siltech to try I used an old pair of Monster I had around. When I did replace those Monster with the Siltech the difference was astronomical. I just don't understand what you all get out of telling people there are no benefit to better cables. If I had never upgraded those RCA's between my separates, I really would have never gotten my moneys worth out of the separates. The money spent on the Siltech RCA's was as important as anything else spent on my system.

    This debate will continue for ever. All I can say is if some one isn't at least open minded to trying better cables they stand a chance of cheating themselves out of getting all they paid for out of their equipment. Most hi fi shops will let you take cables home to try. I know Transparent provides their dealers with kits for just that purpose. I bought my Siltech from the East coast with the option to return them. It's easy to try better cables risk free.

  11. #11
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    You can get the same cables as made by blue jeans cable if you buy the Belden wire by the foot. You can add your own terminations or just use the bare wire. It costs about half of what blue jeans costs (if I remember correctly). I can't remember the name of the retailer I bought from last time for the bulk Belden wire, but I think I have the name at home with some leftover wire from my last installation.

    The Belden wire jacket is paintable as well, in case you want to try and hide it better if it is exposed.

  12. #12
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Sounds like it's a definite, unequivocal, absolute, maybe.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  13. #13
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    More like...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Sounds like it's a definite, unequivocal, absolute, maybe.
    ...a definite, unequivocal, absolute depends! And I'm not talking about the adult diaper!

    Cables should be the final upgrade of one's system (leaving tweaks and things outside the signal path alone for now). Once the rest of the system, including room acoustics, is in place, one can certainly experiment with cables for the final smidge of improvement. Cables don't make profoundly big differences in my experience but the diffs they do make can be significant... if that makes any sense. Sometimes a 1% improvement is significant to the overall sound. I've spent some bucks in my lifetime for just such a step up.

    But again, all else should be looked after first.
    Form is out. Content makes its own form.
    -Sam Rivers

    The format doesn't matter. The music is all that matters.
    - Musicoverall

  14. #14
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    ...a definite, unequivocal, absolute depends! And I'm not talking about the adult diaper!

    Cables should be the final upgrade of one's system (leaving tweaks and things outside the signal path alone for now). Once the rest of the system, including room acoustics, is in place, one can certainly experiment with cables for the final smidge of improvement. Cables don't make profoundly big differences in my experience but the diffs they do make can be significant... if that makes any sense. Sometimes a 1% improvement is significant to the overall sound. I've spent some bucks in my lifetime for just such a step up.

    But again, all else should be looked after first.
    More depends (note the lower case d),

    Going from a set of Monopriced 12 ga to megapriced 12ga may get you a small change. But going from Fisherpriced 22ga to Monopriced 12ga will make a huge difference.

    Other than that, we agree.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    You can buy raw belden cable from bluejean for dirt cheap as well.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  16. #16
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    I wound have to agree with Bill B. to a certain extent. I have some expensive cables, and they do make a difference, but I don't think many are worth the excessive, sometimes ludicrous price one has to pay. I think any well designed and reasonably priced cables get the job done. Any difference will be subtle, and cables can certainly affect the tone of a system, which is more of a personal preference than anything else.

    I've read several very interesting articles written by people of high reputation that consider expensive cables to be folly. Take for instance the man who designed many of the audio systems at Disney. His systems have consistently been and continue to be chosen by Disney and other notable companies because they consistently sound better than anything else, this given that the Sound folks at Disney are very very picky. He brings up a very good point, which is this. If there were the differences people claim, then the aerospace industry and military establishment, both of whom spend billions a year in research and development, would know about it. The man who designed these systems used the word 'morons' to describe folks like us that spend ridiculous amounts on cables. I must admit that in the past I've been guilty as charged. But I've made up my mind going forward that any significant outlay will not be towards expensive cables. I've got enough of them and any other cabling I need will be a sound design that is reasonably priced, such as the Tara Labs 'The Zero', or that other bargain, The Nordost Valhalla. I mean, why shouldn't a set of interconnects and cables cost as much as a Porche?

  17. #17
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    You have to keep in mind that Disney's sound systems are for large venues and theaters, and therefore would use Pro gear. If you used exotic cable the system may cost as much as the building. I'm sure Disney wouldn't want a system to sound like crap, on the other hand, I'm also sure cost is a big factor.

    They can call me whatever, with the results I've experienced I have no problem buying quality cables. Now I have seen cables that go up to 5 figures and I have to admit I have my doubts as to something like that being worth the cost. In every category of product though there has to be the extreme doesn't there.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Why is it then, when they compared cables of various qualities that people could not pick out the most expensive cables in blind tests. I have no doubt that cables can affect the quality of sound-adding sublte distortion which we all interpret in a different way whether its pleasing or not. The most you can ask of a cable is low resistance and capacitance and that it not change the signal.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  19. #19
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Cables do make a difference. What is interesting to me is that it may take me awhile to decide if the difference is correct. Some cables that wowed at first became irritating two weeks later. My long term reference Alpha Core MI1's sounded bad with my new Mobile Fidelity OML 1's. I purchased the AQ Slates and they are great with the OML 1's. I have found component interaction plays a part in rather a cable is successful or not. Some of these differences would not be apparent in an A B test.

    I wonder if sitting 7 feet from my speakers makes it easier to hear cable differences?Would I hear the same cable effects from 15 feet from the speaker? Would I be able to detect cable differences in a multi channel system as easily as I do in my two channel system? Since many of our systems are configured differently and in different acoustic spaces cable differences may be more or less obvious. If you do not hear the differences in cables buy inexpensive. If you do hear differences it is worth the time and effort to try cables to get the best system synergy.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  20. #20
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    If you do not hear the differences in cables buy inexpensive. If you do hear differences it is worth the time and effort to try cables to get the best system synergy.
    And that's what it all boils down to doesn't it.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  21. #21
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    You have to keep in mind that Disney's sound systems are for large venues and theaters, and therefore would use Pro gear. If you used exotic cable the system may cost as much as the building. I'm sure Disney wouldn't want a system to sound like crap, on the other hand, I'm also sure cost is a big factor.

    They can call me whatever, with the results I've experienced I have no problem buying quality cables. Now I have seen cables that go up to 5 figures and I have to admit I have my doubts as to something like that being worth the cost. In every category of product though there has to be the extreme doesn't there.
    Thats what I would have thought initially Mr. Peabody, but in fact the man builds the smaller personal systems they use also, and this is not just for Disney. I don't mean to suggest that his hearing is better or that he knows better sound than we do. I have always had and still have, by the grace of God, excellent hearing (must have been the cod liver oil as a kid). I can clearly hear differences (although subtle) in the tone and texture of a sound with different cables, so there is no doubt in my mind that different cables from several manufacturers sound different. I still think this is, to a large degree, a form of tone shaping or tone control if you will. The most compelling statement he made, and one that gives pause for thought, is that the US Aerospace and Military establishments would know of and use such technology, which they do not. Do Transparent, Nordost, Siltech, Tara Labs etc. etc. sell to the aerospace industry or US Government; agencies well known for spending ludicrous sums to get what they need? I don't think they do.

    The other night I attended a performance at a restaurant, where I listened to the Afghani singer Ahmad Walli (beautiful music). His speakers were JBL horns and compression drivers. I observed long runs of standard, large-gauge well-made professional duty cable. I'm very familiar with the sound of JBLs. The system sounded excellent - clear as a bell, and this with such long cable runs. I can't help but think that the cables had little, if no impact on the sonic integrity of the system.

    I am not an extremist in either camp. I just care about a sound that pleases me and delivers the music the way I like it. I do have trouble accepting the notion that many of the very expensive cables sound more accurate. My opinion is, that in the vast majority of cases these cable manufacturers have learned that marketing to us folks is very effective and a great way to make a lot of money for less than it costs to build a component. Also consider that one needs several sets for a system. Thats a lot of money.
    Last edited by O'Shag; 01-10-2008 at 12:54 PM.

  22. #22
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    What exactly would the aerospace industry or the feds need with better sounding cables?

  23. #23
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    What exactly would the aerospace industry or the feds need with better sounding cables?
    Good question. The marketing for the big high-end cable manufacturers is based on the concept that their cable technology provides a zero-loss solution i.e. " I heard details I never heard before, or " The soundstage was incredibly wide and the instruments were accurately placed with pin-point precision" or I was able to hear the resin of the violin" etc. etc. Clearly this is a message that says that more information is being delivered more accurately when using their cables. This as opposed to talking about tone-shaping, or changing the sound from what is accurate to the source. Their claim is that the cables they make dig deeper and extract more information. Now, if this was the case, then the space shuttle, Tanks, F-15s, sound monitoring facilities etc. would be full of Tara Labs The Zero.

    I've bought several expensive cables. Like you, I have Transparent Ultra, and I do like the sound, but I hesitate to believe that its more accurate. The whole our-cables-are-more-accurate claim just doesn't seem to make sense, given the extensive scientific studies on cable theory and electro-conductivity. As much as I like the Transparents, I do believe they attenuate the very highest frequencies a bit, which would explain why the system's noise floor seems lower with a quieter, 'blacker' background.

    But I am all for people spending their money how they see fit, and I wouldn't consider anyone foolish for buying expensive cables. As long as they are within their budget and keep sight of the facts.

  24. #24
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    True, it would be impossible to know which cable is more accurate. And, to some extend they may be tone controls but improvement is improvement. I don't think I'd say, "digs deeper" but maybe allows more detail through. My thing is that some say cables make no difference which I just can't understand that at all, because in most instances there is some kind of difference. I can understand the crux of the debate being the word "improvement". To use the Transparent you mentioned, an extended high may be perceived as one guy as an improvement and another a degradation. It depends on the system and how much highs one likes.

    In the case of the Transparent what stood out for me and sealed the deal was the tightening and punch of the bass response. This was a definite improvement to me as well as an overall sense of better sound quality. Nothing will stick out in my mind like replacing a pair of Monster RCA's I had between my pre and power amp with the Siltech, this was such an obvious improvement anyone could hear it. The upgrade took my components to a whole higher level in every aspect. It was so dramatic, it was like going up a series in electronics.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    I've never heard the Siltechs, but by all accounts they are very good. There's no question that cables do sound different, and some types of sound are more appealing to me than others. agree about the Transparent' bass response. I've heard the Nordost Valhalla, and they are very neutral and transparent, but I don;t think they have the same body in the bottom end, especially compared to the Transparent reference. On the other hand they definitely have more 'air' up on top, and are very fast sounding.

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