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Thread: Do you bi-wire?

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    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Do you bi-wire?

    If so what brand cables are you using? My new speakers are able to be bi-wired so I am considering an internally biwired cable. I want to have the single wire at the amp end and the individual wire for the lows and one for the highs. Currently I am using a single wire with the jumper bars.

    I know there are differing opinions about the benefits of bi-wiring but I am going to try it. Thanks in advance for suggestions about cables from those who bi-wire.
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  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Yes ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    If so what brand cables are you using? My new speakers are able to be bi-wired so I am considering an internally biwired cable. I want to have the single wire at the amp end and the individual wire for the lows and one for the highs. Currently I am using a single wire with the jumper bars.

    I know there are differing opinions about the benefits of bi-wiring but I am going to try it. Thanks in advance for suggestions about cables from those who bi-wire.
    I'm currently bi-wiring my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's. The cables are only 3' since my amps are monoblocks placed closer to the speakers than the preamp.

    The cables are 14ga. Monster; the connectors are Parts Express banana plugs.

    I can honestly say I hear any difference at all from the 9' Nordost Flatline Gold MkII I was using previously.
    ...
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    I bi-amp my center channel speaker in my HT set up but i don't bi-wire.One suggestion that is far cheaper and still makes a difference is remove those metal jumper plates and replace them with 2 short lengths of speaker wire.I have done this to the rest of my speakers and find it does make a difference.

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  4. #4
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    No.

    I don't bi-wire because the Thiels only allow single wiring. They are designed to be single wired. If I had speakers that were designed to be biwired (And if it was recommended by the designers) I would maybe biwire them, but only with good pre-terminated cable.
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  5. #5
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Theres no need to "internally" bi-wire a speaker, whatever that is.
    If your speaker has two sets of terminals thats all you need.
    I tried bi-wiring with a Denon, couldnt tell any diff.
    This is one of those silly things audio enthusiast get into.
    Electrically theres really no difference, so no surprize theres no audible difference either.
    Now BIAMPING...
    That might make a difference if you could tailor a Amp to operate on a certain set of frequencies.
    Actually anyone who is using a sub is in a way "bi-amping"
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  6. #6
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Theres no need to "internally" bi-wire a speaker, whatever that is.
    If your speaker has two sets of terminals thats all you need.
    I tried bi-wiring with a Denon, couldnt tell any diff.
    This is one of those silly things audio enthusiast get into.
    Electrically theres really no difference, so no surprize theres no audible difference either.
    Now BIAMPING...
    That might make a difference if you could tailor a Amp to operate on a certain set of frequencies.
    Actually anyone who is using a sub is in a way "bi-amping"
    You don't have to tailor an amp for bi-amping, just use two identical amps, simple as that.

  7. #7
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    True, Bi-amping (or tri, or quad if you really want to) will make a difference, and if you were to do a passive biamp, all you need are 2 identical amps.

    if you wanna go wild though, you will benefit more from a dedicated active crossover, and remove the x-over from the speakers. this way you're actually creating an active speaker of somekind, where having a dedicated amp for a woofer and a mid/tweeter will make a big difference.
    Life is music!

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  8. #8
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Theres no need to "internally" bi-wire a speaker, whatever that is.
    If your speaker has two sets of terminals thats all you need.
    I tried bi-wiring with a Denon, couldnt tell any diff.
    This is one of those silly things audio enthusiast get into.
    Electrically theres really no difference, so no surprize theres no audible difference either.
    Now BIAMPING...
    That might make a difference if you could tailor a Amp to operate on a certain set of frequencies.
    Actually anyone who is using a sub is in a way "bi-amping"


    I was speaking of wire that internally has both the treble and bass wires versus running two seperate lengths of wire. Thanks for responding but I did ask to hear from those who bi-wire and did not want to start a debate.
    JohnMichael
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  9. #9
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    I was speaking of wire that internally has both the treble and bass wires versus running two seperate lengths of wire. Thanks for responding but I did ask to hear from those who bi-wire and did not want to start a debate.

    I used to bi-wire my older set of PSB Image towers because they had a built in subwoofer that was powered in each cabinet and was using Audioquest GR-8's, which were really think, but pliable. I honestly didn't notice the improvement that I was hoping for when I switched to those cables and looking back wouldn't have bought those cables, especially since they cost more than standard cables and require tougher termination to ensure a proper hold since there are 4 points of contact. I would definitely say that Bi-amping is preferrable, but that requires much more money, but I could definitely see how the OML's could benefit from those, I'll have to check with my friend that I was telling you about in the earlier post who had a set of the OML's before and see if he ever bi-wired or even bi-amped his pair before he sold them.

  10. #10
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I buy wire. Does that count?
    It's mostly Alpha and Belding wire on 1000 ft spools.
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  11. #11
    Oh where have ye gone RL?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I buy wire. Does that count?
    It's mostly Alpha and Belding wire on 1000 ft spools.
    Got any extra? CanI've some?
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  12. #12
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Got any extra? CanI've some?
    I never get to see any of it myself.
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  13. #13
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    I used to bi-wire my older set of PSB Image towers because they had a built in subwoofer that was powered in each cabinet and was using Audioquest GR-8's, which were really think, but pliable. I honestly didn't notice the improvement that I was hoping for when I switched to those cables and looking back wouldn't have bought those cables, especially since they cost more than standard cables and require tougher termination to ensure a proper hold since there are 4 points of contact. I would definitely say that Bi-amping is preferrable, but that requires much more money, but I could definitely see how the OML's could benefit from those, I'll have to check with my friend that I was telling you about in the earlier post who had a set of the OML's before and see if he ever bi-wired or even bi-amped his pair before he sold them.


    I would appreciate knowing what he did and thought. You are right that with the extra terminations and the extra wire it is easy to spend a lot of money.
    JohnMichael
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  14. #14
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    I would appreciate knowing what he did and thought. You are right that with the extra terminations and the extra wire it is easy to spend a lot of money.
    Ok, I got some input for you that might be helpful. I called up my friend Jeremiah to ask him about his OML-2's that he had several years ago, he had before he sold them and got ML speakers...here is basically what he said...

    First, he mentioned that they were 84dB sensitivity, which is a little different than the 88dB on the OML-1's like you have, also the difference with the lack of woofer on the OML-1, versus the 6.5" on the OML-2, which would be more productive being bi-amped and perhaps bi-wired, which he tried both and was driving them with PS Audio amplifiers at the time. I asked him about bi-wiring the OML-1 and his thoughts on that and he said he doubted that there would be a whole lot of difference since there is no woofer and it would be more beneficial going with a 2.1 setup and getting a designated subwoofer for the crossover point, which I would highly agree as this is what I did with my Polk monitors and when they were bi-amped and the use of subwoofer dramatically made a difference. He also mentioned that he tried two cables when he did the bi-wiring and bi-amping, which were the PS Audio xStreams, which I also have, but no the bi-wired bundle, which is SOOOOOOOO think you can barely bend the darn thing. I mean it's nearly 3in. thick!!! Not all cables are this massive for this, but those are! Again, he noticed subtle improvement in the bi-wiring process, but to quote his words "nothing to write home about." Hope that helps!

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    AR Junior Member sgt bass08's Avatar
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    im confussed about bi wiring speakers it seems that you guys are saying its not worth doing to bi wire speakers i always thought that you get a lot more power and detail by doing it i wanted to use a amp to add to my av amp and have a 5.1 speaker setup and bi wire all my speakers is it worth doing
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    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgt bass08
    im confussed about bi wiring speakers it seems that you guys are saying its not worth doing to bi wire speakers i always thought that you get a lot more power and detail by doing it i wanted to use a amp to add to my av amp and have a 5.1 speaker setup and bi wire all my speakers is it worth doing


    Bi-wiring is when you use a single stereo integrated amp or receiver and use speaker wire that connects to the speaker outputs. Internally the wire has sections for the bass and treble and four connectors at the speaker end. A speaker that has two sets of inputs for bass and treble can be biwired. If you are using a receiver and add an amp and the receiver will handle the treble and the amp the bass you are now bi-amping. You would have an idividual speaker cable going from one amp to the low frequencies and another speaker cable from the receiver to the high frequencies.
    JohnMichael
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  17. #17
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Do you bi-wire?

    No but I get alot of offers...Badoom chuck

    I did when I was using the Rotel, though I can't claim to have heard any difference. With the arrival of the Mac came bi-amping which I can say did bring a noticable difference.

  18. #18
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    I was speaking of wire that internally has both the treble and bass wires versus running two seperate lengths of wire. Thanks for responding but I did ask to hear from those who bi-wire and did not want to start a debate.
    So are you splitting up the treble and bass signals before sending them down the wire? Whether you tie them together at the speaker or the amp, not much is going to matter.

  19. #19
    AR Junior Member sgt bass08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Bi-wiring is when you use a single stereo integrated amp or receiver and use speaker wire that connects to the speaker outputs. Internally the wire has sections for the bass and treble and four connectors at the speaker end. A speaker that has two sets of inputs for bass and treble can be biwired. If you are using a receiver and add an amp and the receiver will handle the treble and the amp the bass you are now bi-amping. You would have an idividual speaker cable going from one amp to the low frequencies and another speaker cable from the receiver to the high frequencies.


    thanks for you input you were talking about a single stereo integrated amp i want to now would it work on a home cinema amp would it still be same setup as if you bi amp on a stereo integrated amp
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    AR Junior Member sgt bass08's Avatar
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    can someone tell me yes or no will this amp ere hook up to my home cinema amp as a bi amp


    http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...roduct_ID/2393
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  21. #21
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    Smile Fun at the very least

    Friend,

    I've tried all kind of wiring techniques. Currently, I am biamping BUT I have bi-wired. My parasound amp actually comes configured for bi-wiring (two sets jacks for each channel). It made it extremely easy. As for audible difference . . . . . my mind likes to tell my ears there's one, but I'm not certain. What I mean by that: With my Paradigm speakers: Studio 100's and Studio 40's - they sounded better when bi-wired. My Polk Audio LSi 15's and 9's, sounded worse when bi-wired to the Parasound BUT sounded better when I ran the highs from my receiver (Yamaha RX-Z1) and lows from the Parasound. Go figure - I've removed jumpers and added quality cable; again, my mind wants to tell my ears there's an audio difference. Not sure. What has made the most difference . . . . .even more than speaker cable(s), are the electronics by FAR!. You asked about my cable - I'm not exactly sure of the brand, but it was $ 5.00 per foot (discounted to me by a friend) and is 12g. I applied customized termination. So . .. a long answer to your question: it depends on the indiviual speaker(s) if bi-wiring improves anything.
    I've grown quite accustomed to . . . TRYING IT! So . . . try it and go with what sounds better to you.

  22. #22
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I am now using AudioQuest Slate cables in bi-wire configuration to my Mo Fi OML 1's. Removing the jumpers and having the bi-wired cables have opened up the high frequencies. When the jumpers were used with another cable the highs were lacking in detail and definition. I tried some short speaker cable as jumpers and there was an improvement but not as great as I hear with the bi-wire cable. Part of this could be the quality of the AudioQuest Slate but if a speaker is bi-wire capable I suggest you try it. You might be very pleased as I am.
    JohnMichael
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    I bi wired my Quad 21L2s when I first got them. There was a big improvement in the depth of the soundstage and it seemed the sound was more detailed BUT they were lacking timing and the music sounded ripped apart instead of being coherent, with the instruments playing together in harmony. I think bi wiring causes some kind of phase shift. When I returned to a single wire setup the coherency and timing were restored and the sound was much more natural.

    In my opinion you shouldn't bi wire, because it creates side effects caused by the different response of your tweeters en woofers, or whatever the cause is. They don't seem to work together anymore. It may sound "clearer", but it's somehow unnatural and every recording starts to sound the same. I even think that the difference in soundstage is because of timing differences (I think it creates some kind of echoe, tricking your ears into thinking the sound comes from a different place). You might want to check this site: http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html. I think it explains what I'm talking about.

    Anyway, some people may appreciate bi wiring more, because they may find detail and soundstage more important than naturalness.
    Martijn Kruiten

  24. #24
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I buy wire. Does that count?

    I could bi-wire in a pretty interesting manor. My speakers have built in powered woofers. I could run my LFE directly to those plate amps and cross the rest of the speakers at 80 htz. Hmmmmmmmmmm............
    might be worth a listen.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  25. #25
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    Interesting comments

    Quote Originally Posted by makruiten
    I bi wired my Quad 21L2s when I first got them. There was a big improvement in the depth of the soundstage and it seemed the sound was more detailed BUT they were lacking timing and the music sounded ripped apart instead of being coherent, with the instruments playing together in harmony. I think bi wiring causes some kind of phase shift. When I returned to a single wire setup the coherency and timing were restored and the sound was much more natural.

    In my opinion you shouldn't bi wire, because it creates side effects caused by the different response of your tweeters en woofers, or whatever the cause is. They don't seem to work together anymore. It may sound "clearer", but it's somehow unnatural and every recording starts to sound the same. I even think that the difference in soundstage is because of timing differences (I think it creates some kind of echoe, tricking your ears into thinking the sound comes from a different place). You might want to check this site: http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html. I think it explains what I'm talking about.

    Anyway, some people may appreciate bi wiring more, because they may find detail and soundstage more important than naturalness.
    Anyone else find this to be true? I've always wondered about this myself. I discovered that I preferred not to bi-wire but couldn't say why except the sound just sort of "lost focus". I couldn't really put it into words.

    Thanks for your comments.
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