Do speaker cables (cheap vs not so cheap) make a diffrence?

[E-Stat]

IDo you have shielded speaker wires? If so, why?

Yes. While shielding was not the primary reason I purchased them, there is plenty of radiated RF around my house with multiple wireless phones and an 802.11g wireless network.

At this link, http://www.trinitysoundcompany.com/wire-up.html, they say "In fact, the higher reactance of shielded speaker cables can induce deleterious parasitc oscillation."

I presume they are referring to inductive reactance. My cables are of a very low inductance design. I doubt they have ever used a solid core shield with their PA systems.

But, any company that works with Elvira "Mistress of the Dark" is ok by me.

rw

[Mash]

Roger Russel, Head of McIntosh Labs, has a wonderful and very readable site on speaker wires.



This is a fun read presented by a disinterested authority who discusses not only wire sizing and extensive test results but also the economic realities of speaker wires.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[MusicLG]

I think speaker cables will make your system sound as good as you want them to...it's about as subjective as the speakers themselves (within a given price point, of course). I do not think anyone would be happy using Radio Shack crap with an $8,000 system...so splurge and feel good. There is a direct corrolation between enjoyment/bragging rights and the amount you pay. After all, who else but you can determine whether you put too much $ into your system?

[musicoverall]

I do not think anyone would be happy using Radio Shack crap with an $8,000 system...

Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?

[Pat D]

Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?

My system cost more than $8000 but I see no sonic advantage in using anything beyond generic wires and I'm really not interested in the prestige of owning expensive wires. It seems no one has ever proved there is any audible benefit in expensive wires after all these years, so it would seem to me to be a waste of money..

[theaudiohobby]

My system cost more than $8000 but I see no sonic advantage in using anything beyond generic wires and I'm really not interested in the prestige of owning expensive wires. It seems no one has ever proved there is any audible benefit in expensive wires after all these years, so it would seem to me to be a waste of money..

I will have to agree with you on this one, rather spend that money on room treatments and reap unambigous benefits.

[musicoverall]

My system cost more than $8000 but I see no sonic advantage in using anything beyond generic wires and I'm really not interested in the prestige of owning expensive wires. It seems no one has ever proved there is any audible benefit in expensive wires after all these years, so it would seem to me to be a waste of money..

I "see" no sonic advantage in higher definition cables, either. I "hear" them!

All kidding aside, yours is the second (at least) post I've read where the poster is seemingly going to wait until someone proves that wires can make an improvement. Why not try them yourself and find out?

[musicoverall]

I will have to agree with you on this one, rather spend that money on room treatments and reap unambigous benefits.

I certainly agree that room acoustics are a much higher priority than cables. I prioritize as recordings first, then speakers, then room treatments in the first wave. Analog front end is the second wave. Third comes electronics and fourth is cables. Dead last is tweaks and except for isolation for my turntable, I haven't found any that I could reliably say were of any benefit. So in all honesty, cables are the last thing on my list. That doesn't make them unimportant, just less important.

[theaudiohobby]

So in all honesty, cables are the last thing on my list. That doesn't make them unimportant, just less important.

Agreed

[Pat D]

I "see" no sonic advantage in higher definition cables, either. I "hear" them!

All kidding aside, yours is the second (at least) post I've read where the poster is seemingly going to wait until someone proves that wires can make an improvement. Why not try them yourself and find out?

For one thing, I have never noticed that wires (unless defective) make any audible difference, except for phono cables, where capacitance can be important. Whatever I may notice when changing cables (which is a process of training), I invariably notice the same things when going back to the originals.

[musicoverall]

For one thing, I have never noticed that wires (unless defective) make any audible difference, except for phono cables, where capacitance can be important. Whatever I may notice when changing cables (which is a process of training), I invariably notice the same things when going back to the originals.

Pat D,

Then you have tried cables and they don't make any difference in your system. I respect that. After reading this thread again, my original comment:

"Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?"

...was trollish and baiting. It was totally unnecessary. So I thank you for responding as a gentleman rather than in kind and I apologize to this forum and A/R for my post. I appreciate that the moderators are trying to keep this place civil and I'll try to do my part not to purposefully bait the opposing side without having something meaningful to share.

[B15serv]

I have a simple way of looking at cables. You need to view them as pipes with water flowing through. If you have only 20% capacity flowing, a larger pipe wont do anything for you. But if you have so much water pushing through that its spraying out the other end than you need to upgrade. This theory takes care of all but one part of cables.... the fact that different ones will each have their own "character". if your equipment can carry that character to the speakers than you might favor it. I decided to test this whole cable war on some reasonably priced interconnect cables to see what happened.

The cables were Acoustic research basic series (gold package) for about $12, Acoustic Research ProII $25, and Monster thx $50. All available at any bestbuy for the common consumer. Ill start by saying that the AR ProII cable had a much better soundstage and were immediately noticed when switched. The test music ranged from Rammstien to Dave Mathews to Dave Brubeck. The image was simply more accurate with the better cables. Now thats something that we could have figured since they are both from the same company but the real question is if the double-priced monsters did anything. My test songs were DMB's "what would you say" live and "god thinks" from Voltaire. First with DMB i noticed immediately that Carters' snare drum had more presence, however the bass have a different tone that I didnt quite favor. Horizontal image was the same but the drums had a little more detail as far as depth. With the track from Voltaire I noticed a tad bit more separation with the acoustic guitar and the vocals although the midbass seemed slightly strange sounding. A little bit unclear to put a label on it I guess.

So what does all of this mean? It means that cables have their own sound. The monsters played with the soundstage in a way that I liked. However the character of the monsters changed some sounds in a way that I dont prefer. The AR ProII's are what im currently using because I prefer their "sound". So when people ask if cables make a difference I tell them yes, but not always one that matches the price. I have it hard because I listen to alot of metal, the budget on metal recordings is the factor that makes me sometimes prefer a cheaper interconnect. Alot of the "audiophiles" have $30,000 systems that sound like a pair of KLH crap for anything other than jazz/classical.

Keep in mind the associated equipment for my little test is all very real world.
Yamaha 5790 Receiver ($400 open item)
Athena Tower Speakers ($150/pair open item)
Samsung DVD-HD850 ($150 new)
Monster speaker wire ($80/100 ft)

I hate when stereophile does a review on their budget buys and hook it all up with nordost and marklevinson. its as stupid as polk audio testing their speakers in a $300,000 suspended room with no resonance.

[bluecollar]

With speaker wire you are transferring current from point A to B. As long as the guage is big enough to allow unrestricted flow you can't tell the difference from expensive to cheap wire. Line level cable is another story.The inner wire running through the jackets are too small for proper signal transfer in most cases in cheap cables, not to mention not properly insulated. Keep in mind I'm talking about the basic color coded cables hanging on the department store racks for a couple of dollars. If you are using quality components you should at least buy the midrange line of cable from a reputable brand that is well known for manufacturing quality cable.This will make certain you have a good clean transfer for digital audio and video.

[FLZapped]

The most convenient and objective way to determine the change or lack of it is by putting your ears close to your speakers (6 inches or closer). Most will hear noise/hiss. Good cables (speaker and interconnects) will reduce or "eliminate" this background noise.

If they do, throw them away, because they have severly altered either the output level, or severly attenuated the high frequencies, or both.

The hiss you hear is the themal noise created by the electronics and your cables bloody well pass this if you expect full fidelity.

(This assumes a normally operating system)

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Line level cable is another story.The inner wire running through the jackets are too small for proper signal transfer in most cases

No. There is almost no power being transfered. Typical amps are 10,000 ohms input impedance(or higher) and maximum voltage to drive an amp to full output is around 1.5 volts for most designs, which makes the power level 225 microwatts or 0.000225 watts. Signal transfer is not a problem for small guage wire at these levels.

not to mention not properly insulated.

Huh? What is that supposed to mean?

-Bruce

[markw]

Most likely not. If they dropped that kind of cash on a sound system, why would they then muck it up with inferior wire?

You seem to confuse the term "inferior" to less expensive and that's not always the case.

As you yourself found out, the differnce between two cables, one costing 100 times the other is much, much less dramatic than you thought. Small enough that there were times you couldn't even tell the difference.

[jtgofish]

Over the years I have tried all sorts of cables.Most sound different but not necessarilly better.Some of the really expensive ones -Audience for example, seem to be made to have a particular type of sound so that gullible audiophiles convince themselves they are worth the ridiculous cost.In effect a lot of cables are just fiddling with tone or frequency response which may or may not suit your system or room acoustics.Having said this however most cables,especially multi strand types[like monster] and standard issue do sound pretty bad.Timing seems to be wrong.Solid core copper like standard ceiling lighting cable works much better in most systems.This is best kept to shortish runs however but will sound better than most dedicated cables regardless of cost.These sound very smooth and coherent and is about $1 /metre .I use Perrelli V90.Axon also make solid core which works well.
JT

[bluecollar]

No. There is almost no power being transfered. Typical amps are 10,000 ohms input impedance(or higher) and maximum voltage to drive an amp to full output is around 1.5 volts for most designs, which makes the power level 225 microwatts or 0.000225 watts. Signal transfer is not a problem for small guage wire at these levels.



Huh? What is that supposed to mean?

-Bruce

By insulation I mean shielding from interference. There is a definate effect on a high powered subwoofer using very cheap interconnects.

[musicoverall]

You seem to confuse the term "inferior" to less expensive and that's not always the case.

As you yourself found out, the differnce between two cables, one costing 100 times the other is much, much less dramatic than you thought. Small enough that there were times you couldn't even tell the difference.

The inferior cable was specified as "Radio Shack crap" which is decidedly inferior to just about anything I've tried. No confusion on my end.

I once heard a portion of a selection by a young jazz saxophonist and as I listened, I mistakenly took it to be a long lost improvisation by jazz legend Albert Ayler. Ayler's style was clearly in evidence. That doesn't mean I'd pay the same money to hear the youngster and it doesn't make him Albert Ayler - it means the ears can be fooled, as the objective camp is quick to point out. Who knows what mood I was in at the time? Er... the fact that Ayler is now dead doesn't figure into what I would pay to hear him live, although I suppose it should!

On 3 of the days I tested cables, I missed the differences. Better to miss it 3 times than suffer through 8 days of inferior sound as there were 8 times when the differences were obvious. The cost is a consideration, of course. To many the wires I bought would not be worth the money. To me they were. Good sound and good music are things I try not to scrimp on, to the limits of my financial resources, natch!

[markw]

The inferior cable was specified as "Radio Shack crap" which is decidedly inferior to just about anything I've tried. No confusion on my end.

I once heard a portion of a selection by a young jazz saxophonist and as I listened, I mistakenly took it to be a long lost improvisation by jazz legend Albert Ayler. Ayler's style was clearly in evidence. That doesn't mean I'd pay the same money to hear the youngster and it doesn't make him Albert Ayler - it means the ears can be fooled, as the objective camp is quick to point out. Who knows what mood I was in at the time? Er... the fact that Ayler is now dead doesn't figure into what I would pay to hear him live, although I suppose it should!

On 3 of the days I tested cables, I missed the differences. Better to miss it 3 times than suffer through 8 days of inferior sound as there were 8 times when the differences were obvious. The cost is a consideration, of course. To many the wires I bought would not be worth the money. To me they were. Good sound and good music are things I try not to scrimp on, to the limits of my financial resources, natch!

.. .just how inferior could it be if, for three days you, couldn't discern any difference? I don't see how you could say you "suffered" if you couldn't tell the difference.

[FLZapped]

By insulation I mean shielding from interference. There is a definate effect on a high powered subwoofer using very cheap interconnects.

Insulation does not provide shielding.

[musicoverall]

.. .just how inferior could it be if, for three days you, couldn't discern any difference? I don't see how you could say you "suffered" if you couldn't tell the difference.

I believe I said I suffered not the 3 days I missed the differences but the 8 days I could. The word "suffer" of course is too strong but I got less of what I desire in the playback of recorded music with the inferior cable. I already own the cables and I see no reason to get rid of them when the majority of the time I had no trouble discerning the sonic advantages they wrought.

I think your argument is cost effectiveness, overall. I can understand that. If a subtle improvement isn't worth the big bucks to someone, I'd never argue with it. But it was to me, still is and likely will be in the future.

[markw]

IIRC, the ratio of the cables was about 100:1. With that disparity in prices I would hope/ expect a marked difference, particularly when you describe yourself as "Suffering" with the lesser cables..

I believe I said I suffered not the 3 days I missed the differences but the 8 days I could.

Again, since those three days (about 20% of the time if your numbers are correct) you couldn't even tell one from the other, isn't it a little presumptuous to claim that you "suffered" listening to the low priced cables?

It's hyperbole like that that priovides entertainment in this field.

[Pat D]

Yes. While shielding was not the primary reason I purchased them, there is plenty of radiated RF around my house with multiple wireless phones and an 802.11g wireless network.


I presume they are referring to inductive reactance. My cables are of a very low inductance design. I doubt they have ever used a solid core shield with their PA systems.

But, any company that works with Elvira "Mistress of the Dark" is ok by me.

rw

I presume they were referring to capacitance as that is what the shielding would add to the speaker cables. Here is what Jon Risch says in the post Mike linked:

"Other factors may come into play, as this added shield would not come with out the substantial penalty of added capacitance. The capacitance would not be a problem itself, in terms iof rollong off the highs, but rather, would be a factor in terms of amplifier stability, thwe amp might become' prone to oscillation if there was eenough capacitance present."

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...es/104167.html

[E-Stat]

I presume they were referring to capacitance as that is what the shielding would add to the speaker cables.

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood.

A quarter century ago, Nelson Pass pointed out that you could achieve low inductance by trading off high capacitance and vice versa. See Cable paper

While low inductance is advantageous, many amps (including some of his early designs) oscillated with the high capacitance of those older designs like the Polk. There are a number of cables available today, however, from Nordost, JPS Labs, et al. that achieve low values across all metrics simultaneously along with shielding.

rw