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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Can we categorize exotic cables as luxury rather than necessity?

    Looking at cable as a part of a bigger picture of human-nature....

    Humans tend to purchase products/commodities equal to their purchasing power. For example, a rich person will buy a Mercedes rather than a Buick, or Rollex instead of Timex. Mind you that Buick or Timex will do the same function as their expensive counterpart (or may be better), but Rollex and Mercedes does it with style and feel good.

    Can we apply the same logic to expensive or exotic cables? If one owns expensive components and speakers, would they want to have 0.30 cent a foot zip cord (that have HomeDepot logo on it ) hanging from back of their $3,000 speakers, or $10 Radio shack IC from $5,000 amplifier?

    There is a fierce commitment going on at some other audio board (which I am not going to mention) to rationalize use of exotic/expensive cables, but at the end, it all might come down to cosmetic rather than functionality if we include the human factor.
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  2. #2
    Forum Regular Sealed's Avatar
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    Value

    Value and common sense are not virtues of those with the money to buy such cables.

    NBS has a chart on thier site. If You have "X" dollars in a system, the cables MUST cost "X" amount. I mean something to the tune of, If your system costs $25k you MUST spend $5k+ on cables...and it gets worse.

    I read the guy from "Empire audio" said "Interconnects don't even sound good under $500 a pair"

    Expensive cables are not just overkill, they are an ego-placating device. It's like a genital compensation. Your own isn't thick enough, so you buy a substitute to brag about...that kind of thing.

    There is only so much a cable can compensate for, and once you go past a certain price I am convinced the cable is a psychological crutch more than a true audio boon.

    Again, those that can afford it don't care one way or another. It's just those that feel that is necessary that kind of creep me out.

    "Explain again why you need a $20,000 piece of WIRE?"

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sealed
    "Explain again why you need a $20,000 piece of WIRE?"
    Some like to connect their Rolex between audio components
    mtrycrafts

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    Looking at cable as a part of a bigger picture of human-nature....

    Humans tend to purchase products/commodities equal to their purchasing power. For example, a rich person will buy a Mercedes rather than a Buick, or Rollex instead of Timex. Mind you that Buick or Timex will do the same function as their expensive counterpart (or may be better), but Rollex and Mercedes does it with style and feel good.

    Can we apply the same logic to expensive or exotic cables? If one owns expensive components and speakers, would they want to have 0.30 cent a foot zip cord (that have HomeDepot logo on it ) hanging from back of their $3,000 speakers, or $10 Radio shack IC from $5,000 amplifier?

    There is a fierce commitment going on at some other audio board (which I am not going to mention) to rationalize use of exotic/expensive cables, but at the end, it all might come down to cosmetic rather than functionality if we include the human factor.
    Are audiophile cables a luxury rather than a necessity? I would say so. It's hard for me to imagine someone seriously saying "I just can't live without those cables." Come to think of it, I can't imagine someone seriously saying " Without hifi, I die."

    Tony, can you be more specific about what you mean by "expensive or exotic cables?" I suspect some forum members think there are only two price categories (expensive and inexpensive), but others may not agree since cables are offered at many price levels. If you want to discuss why people buy expensive cables, it would be helpful to explain what you mean by "expensive."
    Last edited by okiemax; 03-10-2004 at 12:18 AM.

  5. #5
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    I would categorize it as stupidity, at least the purchase of them. The sale of them on the other hand is a stroke of genius as it exploits the human nature of those with much more money than their knowledge warrants them to be responsible for handling. If a professional audio engineer were to purchase these cable for a client using the client's money, he might lose his job. His boss would tell him that we don't treat our customer's money recklessly. On the other hand, there is no one to stop the hobbyist or consumer from spending his money on things that don't work any better than much cheaper items. Among those who buy multi thousand dollar appliances for their kitchens, an Italian made range hood costing $6000 was quite the rage. However, it works no better than my $200 GE. A recent Consumer's Reports (March 2004) published tests showing that multi thousand dollar stainless steel stoves built to withstand 100 years of abuse in a commercial kitchen not only didn't cook any better than the best consumer models selling for $1000 or less, in most cases, they didn't perform nearly as well and some brands weren't very reliable. But if you want your kitchen to gleam with stainless steel like the back room of a well scrubbed diner or you want fat fancy looking wires to look at behind your stereo system, go right ahead. There are plenty of people out there just too eager to take your money. Me, I save my exotic cable money for other things, like cruises.

  6. #6
    Forum Regular Chas Underhay's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    I would categorize it as stupidity, at least the purchase of them. The sale of them on the other hand is a stroke of genius as it exploits the human nature of those with much more money than their knowledge warrants them to be responsible for handling. If a professional audio engineer were to purchase these cable for a client using the client's money, he might lose his job. His boss would tell him that we don't treat our customer's money recklessly. On the other hand, there is no one to stop the hobbyist or consumer from spending his money on things that don't work any better than much cheaper items. Among those who buy multi thousand dollar appliances for their kitchens, an Italian made range hood costing $6000 was quite the rage. However, it works no better than my $200 GE. A recent Consumer's Reports (March 2004) published tests showing that multi thousand dollar stainless steel stoves built to withstand 100 years of abuse in a commercial kitchen not only didn't cook any better than the best consumer models selling for $1000 or less, in most cases, they didn't perform nearly as well and some brands weren't very reliable. But if you want your kitchen to gleam with stainless steel like the back room of a well scrubbed diner or you want fat fancy looking wires to look at behind your stereo system, go right ahead. There are plenty of people out there just too eager to take your money. Me, I save my exotic cable money for other things, like cruises.
    Mr Skeptic is right here, the main quality a professional audio engineer will require of his cables is robustness, connectors that will withstand years of use and abuse and cables that will withstand being walked over time and time again. Thats the only reason why their cable outer casings are thick, to provide protection to the thin conductors.

    So no matter what exotic bull$hit cables you use in your domestic hi fi system, dont forget that the music was originally recorded using yards and yards of ordinary, honest "working man's" cable.

  7. #7
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    " It's like a genital compensation. Your own isn't thick enough, so you buy a substitute to brag about...that kind of thing."


    So THAT'S why my wife ran screaming from the room when I bought that braided Kimber Kable! It was either the braiding or the spade connectors, I guess.

    The original post is nothing more than yet another in a long series of whether expensive cables make a performance difference. Certainly most of the posters on A/R will see these cables as a luxury while our chums over at A/A will see them as a necessity. Does that sum it up?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    I would categorize it as stupidity, at least the purchase of them. The sale of them on the other hand is a stroke of genius as it exploits the human nature of those with much more money than their knowledge warrants them to be responsible for handling. If a professional audio engineer were to purchase these cable for a client using the client's money, he might lose his job. His boss would tell him that we don't treat our customer's money recklessly. On the other hand, there is no one to stop the hobbyist or consumer from spending his money on things that don't work any better than much cheaper items. Among those who buy multi thousand dollar appliances for their kitchens, an Italian made range hood costing $6000 was quite the rage. However, it works no better than my $200 GE. A recent Consumer's Reports (March 2004) published tests showing that multi thousand dollar stainless steel stoves built to withstand 100 years of abuse in a commercial kitchen not only didn't cook any better than the best consumer models selling for $1000 or less, in most cases, they didn't perform nearly as well and some brands weren't very reliable. But if you want your kitchen to gleam with stainless steel like the back room of a well scrubbed diner or you want fat fancy looking wires to look at behind your stereo system, go right ahead. There are plenty of people out there just too eager to take your money. Me, I save my exotic cable money for other things, like cruises.
    Only a dummy would spend $2,000 on a cruise instead of using the money to buy an exotic cable. All kinds of terrible things can happen on a cruise ship. I recall shocking headlines like "HUNDREDS SICK AFTER CRUISE" and "SHARK DEVOURS VACATIONER" and "YOU CAN GET STD's ON A BOAT" and "FUN IN SUN CAUSES CANCER." So what do you have to show for your foolishness after you get home? Nothing, except possibly a hangover. But your exotic cable would still be worth something. After having fun with it, you could sell it and buy another maybe even more exotic cable. There is no end to the fun you can have. And it's CLEAN, SAFE FUN!
    Last edited by okiemax; 03-10-2004 at 12:54 PM.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    Only a dummy would spend $2,000 on a cruise instead of using the money to buy an exotic cable. All kinds of terrible things can happen on a cruise ship. I recall shocking headlines like "HUNDREDS SICK AFTER CRUISE" and "SHARK DEVOURS VACATIONER" and "YOU CAN GET STD's ON A BOAT" and "FUN IN SUN CAUSES CANCER." So what do you have to show for your foolishness after you get home? Nothing, except possibly a hangover. But your exotic cable would still be worth something. After having fun with it, you could sell it and buy another maybe even more exotic cable. There is no end to the fun you can have. And it's CLEAN, SAFE FUN!
    Unless you use it for someting other than it's intended purpose , there is no fun to be had with a cable.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    Unless you use it for someting other than it's intended purpose , there is no fun to be had with a cable.
    Oh yeh! Listening to lots of cables is more fun than you can imagine. I have never tried using a cable for other than it's intended purpose, so I will take your word for it. On second thought, I demand you support your claim with double-blind testing.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    Oh yeh! Listening to lots of cables is more fun than you can imagine. I have never tried using a cable for other than it's intended purpose, so I will take your word for it. On second thought, I demand you support your claim with double-blind testing.
    Well, blindfolds were involved...oh...I shouldn't say more
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  12. #12
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    For example, a rich person will buy a Mercedes rather than a Buick, or Rollex instead of Timex. Mind you that Buick or Timex will do the same function as their expensive counterpart (or may be better), but Rollex and Mercedes does it with style and feel good.
    Actually, you have two different situations here. My $69 Casio Waveceptor Atomic watch is more accurate than either my wife's Rolex or my Omega Speedmaster. The Swiss watches which were once standards of accuracy are now just nice pieces of jewelry that serve as timepieces.

    The car analogy, however, is different. At least for those with the appropriate driving skills. While a Buick and a Mercedes both drive down the street, there are definitely differences in their performance envelope, not all aspects of which you can quantify. How do you measure the linearity and road feel in steering systems anyway? My elderly mother always liked her LeSabre and never "got" driving a friend's Mercedes. Nor my Acura TL. Her driving demands were quite modest. As for me, I rather like taking freeway ramps at .85 Gs where possible. Her LeSabre would understeer into the wall at that speed. Indeed, most folks are simply content driving their Buicks and Saturns. So it is with cables.

    rw

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Actually, you have two different situations here. My $69 Casio Waveceptor Atomic watch is more accurate than either my wife's Rolex or my Omega Speedmaster. The Swiss watches which were once standards of accuracy are now just nice pieces of jewelry that serve as timepieces.

    The car analogy, however, is different. At least for those with the appropriate driving skills. While a Buick and a Mercedes both drive down the street, there are definitely differences in their performance envelope, not all aspects of which you can quantify. How do you measure the linearity and road feel in steering systems anyway? My elderly mother always liked her LeSabre and never "got" driving a friend's Mercedes. Nor my Acura TL. Her driving demands were quite modest. As for me, I rather like taking freeway ramps at .85 Gs where possible. Her LeSabre would understeer into the wall at that speed. Indeed, most folks are simply content driving their Buicks and Saturns. So it is with cables.

    rw
    I imagine it must be something measurable, or they wouldn't be able to build a car repeatedly with such a feel, it would just be trial and error. A good cable is engineered to have no "feel," thus anything percieved as being altered by a cable is your imagination or (very)poor engineering.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  14. #14
    JSE
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    It's funny that internal wiring for most speakers is good ol' standard speaker wire. People spend all this money on these Boutique cables to carry a signal that eventually runs into good ol' standard speaker wire once the signal passes the terminals on the back of their speakers. How does that make sense?

    JSE

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    I imagine it must be something measurable, or they wouldn't be able to build a car repeatedly with such a feel, it would just be trial and error.
    There is a difference between replicating parts manufacturing processes and tolerance levels and measuring a dynamic performance parameter of a moving automobile. As for how they determined what those parameters should be, it does take lots of trial and effort. Lots of it. And certainly NOT by engineers, but those with considerably better driving skill. There are a sum total of zero automotive engineers who are competitive drivers. The world's most exotic automobiles, F1 cars, get refined virtually every year with even higher performance. By higher, I mean they shave fractions of a second off lap times.

    There are some here who would say that after a century of design, the automotive engineers have solved all of the problems. And they would be wrong.

    rw

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Chas Underhay's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    Only a dummy would spend $2,000 on a cruise instead of using the money to buy an exotic cable. All kinds of terrible things can happen on a cruise ship. I recall shocking headlines like "HUNDREDS SICK AFTER CRUISE" and "SHARK DEVOURS VACATIONER" and "YOU CAN GET STD's ON A BOAT" and "FUN IN SUN CAUSES CANCER." So what do you have to show for your foolishness after you get home? Nothing, except possibly a hangover. But your exotic cable would still be worth something. After having fun with it, you could sell it and buy another maybe even more exotic cable. There is no end to the fun you can have. And it's CLEAN, SAFE FUN!
    As a simple English country boy, I would much prefer to run the risk of contracting STDs or hangovers than pay through the nose for bull$hit cables. The first two are possible penalties for enjoyment, the latter is the penalty for being plain gulable.

    By the way, I was using the vacationer as bait, the bastard tried sell me cables.

  17. #17
    DMK
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    E-Stat, I gotta tell ya!

    I'm enjoying the hell out of your posts! I've been lurking around here awhile and I'm not a "cable person" but that's not the point. You're bringing a POV that's been absent around here for the most part for a long time. Your arguments make sense, at least for a non-scientist like me, and they encourage the engagement of good debate. SPICY!!!! Much better stuff than the pseudo-science of a previous cable subjectivist from days of yore.

    I'm still waiting for an answer to something you alluded to in another thread - what associated gear was used with the cable DBT's that yielded the null results? If there's any untruth to the old audiophile credo that anything but a high resolution system will not reveal cable sonics, I have yet to see it discredited by any of the DBT citations I've seen. So how about it, naysayers?

    Carry on, gents!

  18. #18
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK
    I'm enjoying the hell out of your posts!
    That's not why I post, but you're welcome. I, too lurked for a while until I thought it might be interesting to see how truly honest and frank some of the regulars are when their assumptions were questioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by DMK
    I'm still waiting for an answer to something you alluded to in another thread - what associated gear was used with the cable DBT's that yielded the null results?
    Despite alledgedly wearing the cloak of openly stated and objective scientific testing methods, I doubt seriously that we will see much in the way of candidly reported appraisals. I've seen a sum total of one (Tag McLaren) - and it didn't support the Borg-like mantra. It is far easier to hide without such compromising details to defend. Certainly not from dialtones like Mtry.

    rw

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    There is a difference between replicating parts manufacturing processes and tolerance levels and measuring a dynamic performance parameter of a moving automobile. As for how they determined what those parameters should be, it does take lots of trial and effort. Lots of it. And certainly NOT by engineers, but those with considerably better driving skill. There are a sum total of zero automotive engineers who are competitive drivers. The world's most exotic automobiles, F1 cars, get refined virtually every year with even higher performance. By higher, I mean they shave fractions of a second off lap times.

    There are some here who would say that after a century of design, the automotive engineers have solved all of the problems. And they would be wrong.

    rw
    When those expert drivers come back with a complaint or sugestion about the feel of an automobile, the engineers must know what paramters to adjust to achieve a preference, right?
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    When those expert drivers come back with a complaint or sugestion about the feel of an automobile, the engineers must know what paramters to adjust to achieve a preference, right?
    Yes, but if is far from rocket science. On some cars, the drivers can do over/understeer suspension fine tuning themselves with in-cockpit front and rear stiffness control. Other times, they tell the engineers which of more they need. The engineers then adjust the roll bars accordingly. For more understeer you need more roll stiffness at the front. For less understeer, you need less roll stiffness. They break out the wrench and dial in what is needed. Or swap out different sized bars altogether. Other times, on a given track the driver may complain of too much lift. Then the engineers need change the angle of the wings to increase downforce. Or conversely, if they are losing speed to competitors, the problem may be too much wing downforce. Then the engineers move the wings to reduce it.

    Theoretical calculations are all but useless for anything other than initial suspension settings.

    rw

  21. #21
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    I would consider them a waste of money, but that is just me.
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  22. #22
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    HiFis are a luxury. Exotic wires are, at best, a waste of money.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK
    I'm still waiting for an answer to something you alluded to in another thread - what associated gear was used with the cable DBT's that yielded the null results? If there's any untruth to the old audiophile credo that anything but a high resolution system will not reveal cable sonics, I have yet to see it discredited by any of the DBT citations I've seen. So how about it, naysayers? Carry on, gents!

    You are asking the wrong question. It matters not how many DBT has null results where the hypothesis is accepted. What matters is demonstration for differences, on any system, esp[ecially one that would pass muster with all the golden ears as some will find faults with any system, excuses, really, not fact based.
    So, you should be asking for the revealing system demonstrating those differences they think are there. Yep, nowhere around. Why?
    mtrycrafts

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That's not why I post, but you're welcome. I, too lurked for a while until I thought it might be interesting to see how truly honest and frank some of the regulars are when their assumptions were questioned.



    Despite alledgedly wearing the cloak of openly stated and objective scientific testing methods, I doubt seriously that we will see much in the way of candidly reported appraisals. I've seen a sum total of one (Tag McLaren) - and it didn't support the Borg-like mantra. It is far easier to hide without such compromising details to defend. Certainly not from dialtones like Mtry.

    rw
    Where are all the positive DBT data? That is what matters, demonstration of differences. LOL. Nowhere to be found. You have no case. ZERO.
    mtrycrafts

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    You are asking the wrong question. It matters not how many DBT has null results where the hypothesis is accepted. What matters is demonstration for differences, on any system, esp[ecially one that would pass muster with all the golden ears as some will find faults with any system, excuses, really, not fact based.
    So, you should be asking for the revealing system demonstrating those differences they think are there. Yep, nowhere around. Why?
    No Sir. He is asking the only right question in response to your condescending statement to him about how much he still needs to learn after 30 years. You raised the question of his experience and how much he knows. So either answer his question or publicly retract that statement and apologize to him and don't attack others for matters you are not willing to reveal about yourself.

    Either play fair or don't play.

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