Cable Delusions

[E-Stat]

...a string or column of air vibrates at a specific frequency...the instrument has specific overtones that further identify it...it travels through space bouncing hither and tither in the hall...the ear hears the sound, the separate arrival times are translated by the brain which localizes the source reasonably well and voila!...applause. Quite quantifiable and measureable in one manner or another, even if biology enters the equation at the end, it too is understood to some degree...charts, graphs, numbers...nothing really vague about it...

What is not quantifiable, however, is correlating any of that using conventional audio component metrics. Distortion measurements of all sorts are useless. Frequency response curves are useless in all but extreme cases. And so on and so on.

..it's them wires that confuse the issue...)

Indeed they do because we don't know why it is most don't pass all the musical content there is to be had.

rw

[E-Stat]

Initial contact with Harry elicited NADA.. It would appear that I am inconsequential.

Next time let me know your're having difficulty before two years down the road!

Keep in mind that as a prominent audio reviewer, his schedule is tight and deadlines always loom. He will not necessarily have time to allow you to test various iterations of your DIY project to his reference. Above all, I wanted for you to hear the current system and get a notion as to what is possible. I was shocked the first time I heard the Nolas so nicely driven about four years ago.

You seem to be of the opinion that "if only jneutron heard what we are talking about", that I'd be, what, swayed?? That I'd, um, start thinking about localization??

Only of the degree of resolution and localization capabilities that exist today. His review system (which in itself constantly changes) does stuff I have never heard anywhere else.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

The real question is, why do people from widely spaced areas with no real contact report the same subjective responses/feelings. What's up with that? And, why are there so many of us? What's up with that?

[jneutron]

Next time let me know your're having difficulty before two years down the road!

What, you in a hurry? This is a long term project..

Above all, I wanted for you to hear the current system and get a notion as to what is possible. I was shocked the first time I heard the Nolas so nicely driven about four years ago.rw

I'm sure it's good. The best it could do would be to convince me that the artist is there.

But hearing a system do that leads to a simple question? How can a two channel system present an accurate image even though the source material does not have all the relevant localization cues left intact throughout the mixdown process.

If a pan pot moved image presents on the system in such a fashion that I believe the artist has been moved to that new location, then I have been fooled by the system into re-organizing my interpretive hearing into believing the new location..

What you are doing is playing with the system to the extent that the result is to change the interpretive algorithms in us.

I strive for a tad more. Part of that "more", is to get everybody thinking about how to actually capture the true localization cues. Listening to a wonderful system doesn't change that thinking.

I attached an excel spreadsheet of that ribbon testing I did yesterday. As you can see, I am able to duplicate the inductance easily using one set of braids. The valhalla specs are for both in parallel, this would be the 305 nH in parallel with the 149 nH spaced sets, a value of 99 nH per foot. All I have to do is put the 1 inch spaced ribbons in parallel with my (zero) spaced ribbons.

So I can easily dupe the inductance.. With a double set of braids, physically set just like they do the dual ribbon, I can get below their inductance also very easily.

However, the capacitance will tradeoff inversely proportional. If I dupe their inductance, I will dupe their capacitance (as the lower limit of course, dielectric dependent.. If I go for 50% of their inductance, I will double their capacitance...physics..

It would be better to go for an impedance match, as the capacitive storage is much too small, and not optimum for a low z load.

For a diy use, this can easily be done by using two coaxial cables, but only using the braids.

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

How can a two channel system present an accurate image even though the source material does not have all the relevant localization cues left intact throughout the mixdown process.

Don't use recordings that "mix down"!

Three mike recordings from the fifties do a nice job of retaining the localization cues. There are numerous flavors of minimally miked (usually, but not always classical) recordings about. Conventional multi-track stuff is useless for this kind of test.

rw

[Fergymunster]

...wasn't it Cardas who was selling those mass-produced, Chinese manufactured ICs after removing the "Made In China" tags...that sorta' blurs the line of what is or isn't bogus...

jimHJJ(...but then again, wire IS wire, generally speaking...)

"there" doesn't refer to George Cardas.That's ludicrous.I mean someone or somebodys.

[jneutron]

Don't use recordings that "mix down"!

Three mike recordings from the fifties do a nice job of retaining the localization cues. There are numerous flavors of minimally miked (usually, but not always classical) recordings about. Conventional multi-track stuff is useless for this kind of test.

rw

Agreed, current generation multitrack is useless for this.

Three mike recordings do not retain the correct localization cues. You are being fooled by the system. It may be your preference, but you are being fooled nonetheless.

Multitrack recording technology has the potential to provide absolutely correct localization information to a two channel system which is consistent with nature.

It requires ITD and IID modulation, not just the IID of a pan pot, but some heavy duty DSP algorithms to accomodate the geometric localization.

After that step has been accomplished, the reproduction system must be designed to hold fast to ITD and IID over the entire bandwidth and at all power levels. (Note that this is what you are attempting to do with the power cords, the IC's, the speaker cables, the amps, the external dacs, all that stuff. You are attempting to do this without a clear understanding of what it is you are actually changing).. ("you" is all the "audiophiles", not just e-stat..)

And then, one can back up into the recording aspect, and iterate the processing there to accomodate the sideband images produced by two speaker setups (vs freq), and tailor the DSP's to accomodate the speaker geometric setup, as well as their nearfield dispersion properties (the old planar vs cylindrical vs point source problem).

Once all this has been done, then the next step is to go back to the origional sources (piano, tuba, drum, whatever), and learn how to apply dsp algorithms to defining the polar frequency and time based dispersion of those instruments. One microphone is insufficient to capturing the three dimensional propagation of an instrument..for example, a horn sounds sharper on axis, yet the off axis energy is part and parcel of a live performance..

As I have stated, this is not a short term project. And step 1 has yet to be realized.....hell, step 1 is not even understood by most.

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

You are being fooled by the system. It may be your preference, but you are being fooled nonetheless.

Why thank you. I submit that it what the very best reproduction systems do!

I'll invoke the doctrine of "good enough" here for purposes of cable comparisons which are usually applied at considerably lower levels of resolution.

rw

[jneutron]

Why thank you. I submit that it what the very best reproduction systems do!

Agreed.

With better source material, they will do it even better.

I'll invoke the doctrine of "good enough" here for purposes of cable comparisons which are usually applied at considerably lower levels of resolution.
rw

Good enough.... isn't.

When I bump my shin on the piano.....now, that's good enough.

Cheers, John