A brief trip to the Bizzarro World

[ericl]

I posted a new thread on the General board that was deleted. It copied a private message that the new moderator sent me chastising me for my comments about Jon Risch and my suggestions of my possible future actions. It responded to these issues and to my attitude towards the proposed changes in detail and with complete civility. The censorship has apparantly already begun. Under the circumstances I feel honored to be the first one censored. At this rate I probably won't be posting here much longer. It looks like the Bizzarro world has advanced to these lands. It may soon be time to bail out if I am not pushed out first. It was fun while it lasted.

Skeptic,

Calling anyone who is not adolf hitler a "nazi dictator" is not civil. I just can't tolerate that. I promise you, I also will not tolerate shills for any company or product. OK? I was beginning to reconsider any rule changes after the comments that everyone has made, but your tone is certainly not helping the cause.

Let's try and be friends, ok?
ERic

[markw]

Oh well, if all else faile, there's always http://www.audioholics.com for a fairly unbiased forum. Let's see if this post remains.

[skeptic]

The cause of freedom of speech has nothing to do with me. That anything I would say or not say would have any influence on whether or not there will be restrictions on freedom of speech here is absurd. I don't see any logic in it.

[ericl]

The cause of freedom of speech has nothing to do with me. That anything I would say or not say would have any influence on whether or not there will be restrictions on freedom of speech here is absurd. I don't see any logic in it.

You're arguing for keeping things the way they are, while making threats and calling people names. Its generally not a good way to advance a cause.

-Eric

[skeptic]

It's not a cause. It's a condition of my continued participation.

[skeptic]

A fond farwell to all of my friends at AR. My final posting in on the General Board under the thread "Hi There." It may get deleted.

[WmAx]

Skeptic,

Calling anyone who is not adolf hitler a "nazi dictator" is not civil. I just can't tolerate that.

I don't know about 'nazi', though the definition on webster.com did specify that 'one who resembels a German Nazi' was also a proper use. This is open to subjective interpretation, i guess. But the person skeptic is referring does seem to fit the term 'dictator'. Not only that, he was a hypocrit. This person has repeatedly forced and deleted/closed/moved threads on his home forum(cable asylum) in the past that did not agree with his views. He would talk about his experiences with DBT trials and offer it as 'evidence' but of coruse with no actual witnessnes or data, but when someone started to demand the data he talked about, he would not produce it. Ironicaly, while he tried to offer his claimed DBT results, he would in other occasions say how flawed and uselss DBT was. On calbe Asylum he would link to mentions of DBT and make mention of it, while at the same time actively prohbiting discussion or linking to them by others. I have no clue what he does or how he acts presently. But he demonstrated the traits of a hypcrytic dictator in the past on that certain 'other' forum.

Frankly, when the words accurately describe the actions of that person, it's not really an insult -- it's a description.

-Chris

[ericl]

I don't know about 'nazi', though the definition on webster.com did specify that 'one who resembels a German Nazi' was also a proper use. This is open to subjective interpretation, i guess. But the person skeptic is referring does seem to fit the term 'dictator'. Not only that, he was a hypocrit. This person has repeatedly forced and deleted/closed/moved threads on his home forum(cable asylum) in the past that did not agree with his views. He would talk about his experiences with DBT trials and offer it as 'evidence' but of coruse with no actual witnessnes or data, but when someone started to demand the data he talked about, he would not produce it. Ironicaly, while he tried to offer his claimed DBT results, he would in other occasions say how flawed and uselss DBT was. On calbe Asylum he would link to mentions of DBT and make mention of it, while at the same time actively prohbiting discussion or linking to them by others. I have no clue what he does or how he acts presently. But he demonstrated the traits of a hypcrytic dictator in the past on that certain 'other' forum.

Frankly, when the words accurately describe the actions of that person, it's not really an insult -- it's a description.

-Chris

Obviously you're free to to think that and express that on your own forum or blog where you set the rules. I have no obligation to let this forum be a place to air personal grudges or dirty laundry. The obligation I do have is to make this an attractive place for hobbyists who want to talk about audio in relative peace. I don't care how justified one feels, I am not going to allow personal attacks of any kind.

-ERic

[mtrycraft]

ARs advertisers like SVS, Axiom, and Aperion. If enough people here make the same threat known on this board, perhaps the owners will get the message and it will be left alone for the enjoyment of the users.

How would these advertisers benefit from the proposed change?
TV, part of SVS, used to post here, a good guy who was banned. I doubt he is in support of the intended changes.

[pctower]

I especially liked the thread where Curl talked about Fermi velocity. What a joke. Here's a guy who can design amplifier circuits and he thinks that makes him an expert on everything. Suddenly he's a nuclear physicist. He wasn't sure whether it was two milles an hour or two million miles an hour. He wasn't sure what it meant or what its significance was but he knew IT'S IMPORTANT! Best of all was his citing Resnick and Halliday, a second year undergraduate engineering school physics book which he somehow misplaced. He had me rolling on the floor. This moron is so stupid, he doesn't even know when he's making himself look like a fool. He doesn't know when to even be embarrassed at his public display of ignorance. Worth the price of admission alone.

Agreed!

[pctower]

So, what else can be included in [i]subjective experience[i/] besides "pleasure"? Isn't that really all there should be to care about? If "listening pleasure" was ALL that MOST audiophiles really care about, why do so many of them come on discussion boards such as this one - and even more so to boards such as the "Assssylum" to argue endlessly over the most insignificant, nitpicking subjects such as the audibility of wires?

I think anyone who spends a lot of time on the Internet is a special case of nut-cake. Sure glad I don't qualify.

[TinHere]

"Certainly there are those who would like to discuss their purchases without having the "fact police" challenge the merit of their purchases."

We occasionally have shills who sell equipment come here trying to advertise their useless wares under the guise of being participants. I don't feel any desire to make this a safe place for them to go unchallenged or unexposed. This has been anything but a friendly place for them in the past and I will not participate any longer if it becomes a friendly place for them in the future. I have said many times that IMO, Cable Asylum has been deliberately arranged not to advertise any particular brand but as a soft sell billboard for the cable industry to create the notion that expensive after market cables are an inherent and necessary part of a fine home audio sound system, and then they let the advertisers and retailers do the rest elsewhere. The anti DBT rule exists IMO not to prevent flame wars as stated because the vitriole there is unbelievable but to create a safe harbor for that industry. Why? Because IMO, the people who fund that site have a vested financial interest in it.

"It would allow for subjective POV discussions to go uniterupted unfettered with the findings of science and laws of physics that can be applied to dismiss the subjective claims as false."

What is would allow is outrageous unsupportable advertising claims to go unchallenged. The only reason many of these people are still in business is that the Federal Trade Commission hasn't caught up with them yet. All of them skate near, around, and sometimes over the line of what is misleading and unethical and what the laws clearly forbids in the way of false advertising to trick consumers into buying expensive products which have no proof of their value or superior function. You said you want this web site to offer advice to beginners who come here but that is what your rule would preclude. All they would get is a one sided story from people with something to sell or from people who don't know what they are talking about with all of the expert opinions you say you value gagged and bound unable to offer a balanced view.

"A board where a cable manufacturer, or cable elevator producer, or a green ink pen company can make unchallenged claims may be just what they want. "

The only people who want that are the people who manufacture or sell those products and those who are paid by them. Are you one of them? One sided views are worthless to people who want a discussion. It's bad enough to get advertising here. It's much worse when it is for products of no proven value and cannot go unchallenged.

" if a group HAS to be segragated here I don't think it should be the objectionists. "

There is no reason to segregate anyone here unless someone is trying to create a safe haven for lies.

"I don't participate much here because ya really have to know what you're talking about"

We have participants here at every level of experience, knowledge, and interest participating here in what is generally a congenial forum. Nobody gets chastised, taken to task, or beaten on for stating an opinion (except me and I can take it, I a big boy)....until they present them as facts. When they do that, they open themselves up to challenge. That is the way it should be. While it is not at all necessary for anyone here to be technically savvy, the most experienced participants who know well what the highest standards of their profession demand when they state something as a fact request the same kind of standards (in a less formal way) for claims of fact made here. That's what makes this site so valuable and that is what would be destroyed.

I would respond to this but it is evident by your last post here that you don't wish to continue the discussion. C'mon and prove me wrong. Maybe we can clear up your confusion?

I know, cheap shot. I hope you reconsider at least until things really change. Who's gonna tell it like it is?

[jneutron]

I posted a new thread on the General board that was deleted. It copied a private message that the new moderator sent me chastising me for my comments about Jon Risch and my suggestions of my possible future actions. It responded to these issues and to my attitude towards the proposed changes in detail and with complete civility. The censorship has apparantly already begun. Under the circumstances I feel honored to be the first one censored. At this rate I probably won't be posting here much longer. It looks like the Bizzarro world has advanced to these lands. It may soon be time to bail out if I am not pushed out first. It was fun while it lasted.

Skep...It is here that I must disagree with you..

I cannot condone the publishing of any private e-mail without the express permission of all involved...I would have deleted that also..and if it had remained so that I could see it, I would have requested the deletion of it by the admin guy..

I respect your opinions on the matters at hand regarding how the forum is run, but do not agree on posting private e-mails...

Cheers, John

[Dusty Chalk]

As things stand now, if people ask me for advice about audio equipment, I never comment one way or the other about advertisers here. However, if this site is destroyed by censorship and I am driven away, I am stating here and now that in the future, I will use my influence to steer potential customers away from ARs advertisers like SVS, Axiom, and Aperion. If enough people here make the same threat known on this board, perhaps the owners will get the message and it will be left alone for the enjoyment of the users.

Hey, now, why would you want to trash SVS? They're a good company...

[WmAx]

I notice you delted my last reply to you.

So, accurate description of people can not be made on this forum, regardless of accuracy, if they are not 'positive'?

-Chris

Obviously you're free to to think that and express that on your own forum or blog where you set the rules. I have no obligation to let this forum be a place to air personal grudges or dirty laundry. The obligation I do have is to make this an attractive place for hobbyists who want to talk about audio in relative peace. I don't care how justified one feels, I am not going to allow personal attacks of any kind.

-ERic

[RobotCzar]

Skeptic,

Calling anyone who is not adolf hitler a "nazi dictator" is not civil. I just can't tolerate that. I promise you, I also will not tolerate shills for any company or product. OK? I was beginning to reconsider any rule changes after the comments that everyone has made, but your tone is certainly not helping the cause.

Let's try and be friends, ok?
ERic

Would just plain "dictator" work?

Civility can be a relative concept. Other forums censor information in the name of civility, but really do it just to promote a position (that apparently can't stand open discussion). You have suggested that you are going to to the same. Making the forum "safe" is a riduculus goal and a slap in the face to those who have attempted to bring rationality to this forum and your hobby. Why should people be "safe" from the facts? If you want to enforce a civility rule, fine. But your comments went way beyond that concept, you openly promoted subjectivist views and announced your goal of making disussions more subjective. Yep, just what the world needs another place for audio subjectivist to indulge themselves.

You go ahead an protect the subjectivists in posting their untruths, but you will be just another high-end "intellectual discussion forum" and those of us who remain rational will look elsewhere. I predict are severe reduction in your site hits.

[WmAx]

Other forums censor information in the name of civility, but really do it just to promote a position (that apparently can't stand open discussion). You have suggested that you are going to to the same. Making the forum "safe" is a riduculus goal and a slap in the face to those who have attempted to bring rationality to this forum and your hobby. Why should people be "safe" from the facts? If you want to enforce a civility rule, fine. But your comments went way beyond that concept, you openly promoted subjectivist views and announced your goal of making disussions more subjective. Yep, just what the world needs another place for audio subjectivist to indulge themselves.

You go ahead an protect the subjectivists in posting their untruths, but you will be just another high-end "intellectual discussion forum" and those of us who remain rational will look elsewhere. I predict are severe reduction in your site hits.

Indeed, AR is now officially a safe-haven of ignorance. Per the new AR Policy posted just after 2 P.M. Eastern:

4. Please restrict discussion of DBT, ABX and lab measurements to the "Naysayers' Lab"

-Chris

[jneutron]

Indeed, AR is now officially a safe-haven of ignorance. Per the new AR Policy posted just after 2 P.M. Eastern:


-Chris

Naysayers lab..

Hmmmm..

Anyone who wishes to contact me will be able to do so either at my work, on DIYaudio.com, AH, or even prophead..

Any forum which supports a "naysayer lab" is one which does not deserve my technical input..

Now..how do I de-subscribe? I cannot find instructions on how to remove all trace of my existence from this board..I would prefer all my posts be removed also..

John

[FLZapped]

Naysayers lab..

Hmmmm..

Anyone who wishes to contact me will be able to do so either at my work, on DIYaudio.com, AH, or even prophead..

Any forum which supports a "naysayer lab" is one which does not deserve my technical input..

Now..how do I de-subscribe? I cannot find instructions on how to remove all trace of my existence from this board..I would prefer all my posts be removed also..

John

I agree, although I haven't posted here much of late as my life has been exceptionally busy. This is exactly the segragation that AA has. They enforce it with an iron hand - to the point where the moderators clearly abuse their power. This forum has now started down that slippery slope by allowing a clearly biased form of moderation.

If I want to discuss DBTs here as it relates to cables, I most certainly will. So I guess the new moderator will be doing a lot of deleting or banning. I find the term "naysayer" a purely insulting ad hominem attack. Regardless that the title has since been changed, the damage has already been done. I also notice that no apology has been offered either.


-Bruce