• 03-01-2004, 05:10 PM
    Tony_Montana
    Amazing how some can tell subtle differences between cables.
    I use an equalizer via tape monitor so I can switch it off and on via remote control instantaneously. When I change EQ settings (mostly is less than 1 dB change..so we are talking about subtle), the only I can tell if the new setting(s) is better than the old one is if I switch it off and on instantaneously.

    If there was any time lapse (even few seconds) were between listening sessions, there is no way in the world I could tell if new EQ settings is an improvement or not.
    So from personal experience, when some cable reviewer say that when he/she swap cable wires (which probably be more than few seconds) and noticed 'slight' improvement in midrange, highs or sound stage, I think to my self that this guy might:

    1. have a memory like an elephant that can remember every music passages.
    2. or he/she is imagining things.
    3. or..................
  • 03-01-2004, 06:42 PM
    bturk667
    I can and have heard the differences cables can make in MY system!
    If you or others can not hear any differences when trying them in your own systems , big deal. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!
  • 03-01-2004, 07:39 PM
    uncooked
    i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts
  • 03-01-2004, 09:41 PM
    pctower
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    I use an equalizer via tape monitor so I can switch it off and on via remote control instantaneously. When I change EQ settings (mostly is less than 1 dB change..so we are talking about subtle), the only I can tell if the new setting(s) is better than the old one is if I switch it off and on instantaneously.

    If there was any time lapse (even few seconds) were between listening sessions, there is no way in the world I could tell if new EQ settings is an improvement or not.
    So from personal experience, when some cable reviewer say that when he/she swap cable wires (which probably be more than few seconds) and noticed 'slight' improvement in midrange, highs or sound stage, I think to my self that this guy might:

    1. have a memory like an elephant that can remember every music passages.
    2. or he/she is imagining things.
    3. or..................

    Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?
  • 03-01-2004, 11:11 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!

    But we need to if indeed you can tell audible differences. That is how science advances. But, for that to be meaningfull, you do need to demonstrate your prowess undedr bias controlled conditions. Highly unlikely event.
  • 03-01-2004, 11:13 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by uncooked
    i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts

    Perception can be highly unreliable; hope you know this fact.
    Why would that tin coating matter?
  • 03-01-2004, 11:16 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pctower
    Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

    Since rapid switching has been demonstrated to be the best for detection, how is it arrogant to draw that conclusion? Oh, one only needs to ask JJ about rapid switching.
    Or, did I miss something here?
  • 03-01-2004, 11:31 PM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by uncooked
    i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts


    The only possible reason for something like this is that they were not connectecd correctly. If they were, this is patently untrue.
  • 03-02-2004, 02:00 AM
    maxg
    On many ocasions I have been at people's houses and asked to comment on their systems etc. Generally during any kind of review I try to glance at the cabling. You would be amazed how often I find blackened copper ends held at best loosely into their sockets. As a matter of course I will snip off those blackened ends, expose some clean copper from under the sheath and properly tighten the connections.

    Sometimes this simple fix can provide discernable improvement in the sound - sometimes not (to the owner I mean).

    On other ocasions I have found cables worn, bent at right angles and even nailed to the wall (through the copper). I generally suggest replacement under these circumstances - unless there is sufficient wire to cut off the damaged sections.

    To say someone is lying when they find huge differences in cables is wrong - there can be many and various causes aside from any sonic benefits of one cable over another.

    MY favorite of all was a friend who bought a pair of Klipsch KLF 30's and was complaining of having no bass (each speaker has 2 12 inch woofers in a ported enclosure). when I went round I discovered the problem was the cable. He had only connected the upper connectors - the lower ones were not connected to anything (the little solid copper links usually supplied were MIA). I cut about 3 inches off each cable run and linked the 2 connectors together. Made quite a difference...
  • 03-02-2004, 04:59 AM
    pctower
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Since rapid switching has been demonstrated to be the best for detection, how is it arrogant to draw that conclusion? Oh, one only needs to ask JJ about rapid switching.
    Or, did I miss something here?

    You missed something.
  • 03-02-2004, 09:15 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pctower
    You missed something.

    Beat me to the punch!

    rw
  • 03-02-2004, 09:57 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    or..................

    3. Carefully chooses one or more musical passages that are:
    ---- A. very well known to the listener
    ---- B. selected to identify a particular characterisitic or variation.

    I guess then that you have experimented little with speaker placement, listening position, or room treatments, as none offer an instantaneous switching capability. You might be surprised how critical room placement can be and how valuable room treatments can be.

    Here are a couple of examples I've used.

    1. My 30x15 room inherently possesses some rather vicious room nodes. One centered around 30hz was actually at times entertaining. I chose the "Yulunga" cut from Dead Can Dance's Toward the Within album to measure the success of using bass traps. There is an acoustical drum that extends down to the bottom octaves. Before using the traps, the strike of the drum created an extended "boom" past the initial strike. Fun, but not real. After putting traps in the two corners behind the panels, the same drum sounded very different. The initial strike was cleaner and the boom disappeared.

    2. Among their many benefits, my bipolar electrostatic speakers are an utter b*tch to position for the best midbass and imaging. To fine tune the distance in the room, I chose the female voice as I find I am very sensitive to changes in that "instrument". Using the "golden triangle" method, I began with a distance to back wall of about seven feet. Then I began a long process of experimenting with both that distance and optimum listening position. I chose a combination that sounded most lifelike to me. That meant moving the speakers further out to about eight feet and moving my initial listening position somewhat closer. I chose a number of favorite vocalists including that of my wife (who has a very clear voice and sings in a barbershop chorus).

    It can be done my friend.

    rw
  • 03-02-2004, 04:36 PM
    Tony_Montana
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pctower
    Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

    Well, members at CA do it all the time :D

    As Mtry mentioned, rapid switching is very effective way to distinguish subtle changes between cables as it will take memory coloration out of picture. I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I guess then that you have experimented little with speaker placement, listening position, or room treatments, as none offer an instantaneous switching capability.

    That is true, but most of the time speaker placement effects are not subtle at all and often dramatic. And one can forecasts what type of effect speaker placement will have on the sound so as to pay close attention to it. For example, when you placed traps around your room, you were paying very close attention to bass notes to see if its effects are improvement or not.

    But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)
  • 03-02-2004, 08:11 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

    Huh? It works for everyone who can read in either case.

    rw
  • 03-02-2004, 11:32 PM
    mtrycraft
    I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.

    But you can do rapid switching under DBT, especially with an ABX box:)
    Test subject will do this on their own without instruction as they discover the advantages of this.


    But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

    If the cables are comparable, 12ga -16ga, it is very predictable, nothing will happen. :)
  • 03-03-2004, 03:40 PM
    uncooked
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    The only possible reason for something like this is that they were not connectecd correctly. If they were, this is patently untrue.



    well it is different now, they were connected properly for sure, and now that the new wire is on i can turn it up as loud as i want with no distortion, before the voices in movies would get really harsh, everybody would have a really bad lisp, every s was dragged out. now its perfect.
  • 03-03-2004, 06:09 PM
    markw
    What does your system consist of?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by uncooked
    well it is different now, they were connected properly for sure, and now that the new wire is on i can turn it up as loud as i want with no distortion, before the voices in movies would get really harsh, everybody would have a really bad lisp, every s was dragged out. now its perfect.

    The reason I ask this, and I doubt your claim, is that when cable differences do exist (and, yes, they possibly can) it takes a system of fairly high resoultion and even then, the differences are subtle at best and yhen heard only under fairly careful listening.

    Not to sound elitist. but somehow I don't think yoursystem has that resolving power. Mine doesn't and you can view it @ audioasylum under markw*.

    Now, here you are claiming a monumentous gain in quality? Sometimes we hear what we want to hear, not what is. If there was a change in sound, odds are it was a bad connection that was fixed when you changed cables.

    But to hang that change on cables? Nahhhh.
  • 03-03-2004, 06:32 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    If there was a change in sound, odds are it was a bad connection that was fixed when you changed cables.

    But to hang that change on cables? Nahhhh.

    I would have to agree.

    rw
  • 03-03-2004, 09:56 PM
    uncooked
    there was no bad connection for sure, im very carefull about thoughs things, every strand of the cable goes in as well, i make sure not to cut or severe any strand.

    and all i can say is that distortion at high volumes is gone. its not something you can just believe. i have had people comment on it sounding better, "becuase i watch movies, and music really loud with friends" and they noticed the change as well, and they know nothing about audio stuff.

    but like i said, "it probably doesnt count" it was really bad cable to start with, it was like commercial data transfer wire, that some neighbour gave us and said it was awsome stuff, but it wasnt......... i have my rears turned up to 14 feet away, when there really only 7, in order to make the level with the fronts, thats how much signal it loses from around 40 feet of this wire. and ive tested it, since i have a rear centre as well, and that is run with good wire, i plugged a speaker into that and set it for 7 feet and it works loud and clear.
  • 03-04-2004, 01:38 AM
    markw
    That harshness, etc.. sounds more like an amp on the verge of clipping.
    I am curious as to the physical differences in the old/new wires. What is the gauge of the two wires in question?

    Nobody has ever disputed that a wide disparity in wire gauge over a distance can cause a voltage drop, which is measurable and can, in some cases, be audiable.

    If that's the case, then there could be a reason for you having to drive the amp so hard as to strain it, which is what you seem to describe. Using a high gauge (thin) wire for a long run is a no no.
  • 03-04-2004, 11:10 AM
    pctower
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    Well, members at CA do it all the time :D

    As Mtry mentioned, rapid switching is very effective way to distinguish subtle changes between cables as it will take memory coloration out of picture. I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.



    That is true, but most of the time speaker placement effects are not subtle at all and often dramatic. And one can forecasts what type of effect speaker placement will have on the sound so as to pay close attention to it. For example, when you placed traps around your room, you were paying very close attention to bass notes to see if its effects are improvement or not.

    But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)


    Personally, I suspect that a scientifically proper cable DBT has never been reported. Probably one has never even been conducted. Therefore, claims and statements made by both sides are mainly mental masturbation.

    E-stat explained in a recent post why cable companies don't bother to conduct scientific DBTs, and no one else seems to care enough to do so.

    Audio (as opposed to home entertainment and background music) has always been primarily for those who have a dedicated listening area with two speakers properly placed in relationship to a single sitting position. Audiophiles are those who are passionately interested in music AND good home reproduction, to the point that their approach to electronic home reproduction of music is very much at variance with the general population. Audiophiles are people who sit in front of their two speakers for hours on end the way most other boobs sit in front of TVs. Because of the serious nature of their listening habits, audiophiles are naturally prone to seek improvements in their systems, where most people don't care because their systems are primarily for background music, and hiding all equipment, cables and speakers is the primary deisign consideration for their systems.

    The vast majority of audiophiles have always made decisions based on what they perceive to make improvements in their systems that were worth the cost of these improvements. They care about how their own system sounds to them - they don't care about the science or lack of science in back of what they do. Moreover, they make their decisions consistent with the way they listen - sighted and non-scientifically.

    If these kind of people didn't exist, there would be no Audio industry and virtually no audiophiles. Companies such as Levinson, Rowland, Krell, Audio Research, MIT, Transparent, Audioquest, Conrad-Johnson, Vandersteen, SoundLab, etc would never have come into existence and this site would not exist if audiophiles took the scientific approach the few stallwarts on this board seem to demand.

    Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not believe anyone on this board or on any audio board has ever really dealt with audio DBTs in a valid, scientific manner. There are difficult statistical issues involved. In addition, the validity of tests is dependent upon the expertise behind the tests. The required expertise is not engineering. Rather it comes more from psychologists. And as far as I can tell there are virtually no people who possess the degree of expertise in the proper disciplines that would be required to set up, hold or opinine on valid blind testing as applied to cables (or for that matter all other components) who ever post on the internet.
  • 03-04-2004, 12:17 PM
    Richard Greene
    Clean your connections NOW !!!
    Every four to six months in a hot humid climate, or every 8 to 12 months in a dry environment, take apart all your wires and clean the ends of the wires and terminations
    and jacks with contact cleaner such as the Caig deoxIT I use (or one of a hundred other brands).

    Clean the inside of rarely used controls such as the balance control, bass & treble control every six months for old equipment (over 8-10 years old .. and every year for newer equipment. More often in hot humid areas.

    Then tighten all connections (very tight without breaking anything).

    You are more likely to hear ... the same improvement you'd hear if you replaced your old corroded wires/loose connections with new clean wires and tight connections. Of course then you'd attribute the change to the new wires.

    Or maybe everythibng will sound the same, but at least you will be busy and productive for a while. and far away from this WireNut/WirePolice asylum!
  • 03-04-2004, 12:18 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pctower
    Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not believe anyone on this board or on any audio board has ever really dealt with audio DBTs in a valid, scientific manner. There are difficult statistical issues involved. In addition, the validity of tests is dependent upon the expertise behind the tests. The required expertise is not engineering. Rather it comes more from psychologists. And as far as I can tell there are virtually no people who possess the degree of expertise in the proper disciplines that would be required to set up, hold or opinine on valid blind testing as applied to cables (or for that matter all other components) who ever post on the internet.

    Perhaps you should contact Dr Toole? He know how and what his data is on wires. It comes down to wire basics, R, I, C.
  • 03-04-2004, 04:11 PM
    zapr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    I can and have heard the differences cables can make in MY system!
    If you or others can not hear any differences when trying them in your own systems , big deal. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!

    ........Exactly what differences do you hear? Can you describe what gains you noticed in detail or what you noticed as a loss?.........Zapr
  • 03-04-2004, 04:19 PM
    bturk667
    Aren't cables and the differences that they can make to a system great?!?