Amazing how some can tell subtle differences between cables.

I use an equalizer via tape monitor so I can switch it off and on via remote control instantaneously. When I change EQ settings (mostly is less than 1 dB change..so we are talking about subtle), the only I can tell if the new setting(s) is better than the old one is if I switch it off and on instantaneously.

If there was any time lapse (even few seconds) were between listening sessions, there is no way in the world I could tell if new EQ settings is an improvement or not.
So from personal experience, when some cable reviewer say that when he/she swap cable wires (which probably be more than few seconds) and noticed 'slight' improvement in midrange, highs or sound stage, I think to my self that this guy might:

1. have a memory like an elephant that can remember every music passages.
2. or he/she is imagining things.
3. or..................

I can and have heard the differences cables can make in MY system!
If you or others can not hear any differences when trying them in your own systems , big deal. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!

i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

I use an equalizer via tape monitor so I can switch it off and on via remote control instantaneously. When I change EQ settings (mostly is less than 1 dB change..so we are talking about subtle), the only I can tell if the new setting(s) is better than the old one is if I switch it off and on instantaneously.

If there was any time lapse (even few seconds) were between listening sessions, there is no way in the world I could tell if new EQ settings is an improvement or not.
So from personal experience, when some cable reviewer say that when he/she swap cable wires (which probably be more than few seconds) and noticed 'slight' improvement in midrange, highs or sound stage, I think to my self that this guy might:

1. have a memory like an elephant that can remember every music passages.
2. or he/she is imagining things.
3. or..................

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Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

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Originally Posted by bturk667

I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!

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But we need to if indeed you can tell audible differences. That is how science advances. But, for that to be meaningfull, you do need to demonstrate your prowess undedr bias controlled conditions. Highly unlikely event.

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Originally Posted by uncooked

i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts

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Perception can be highly unreliable; hope you know this fact.
Why would that tin coating matter?

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Originally Posted by pctower

Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

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Since rapid switching has been demonstrated to be the best for detection, how is it arrogant to draw that conclusion? Oh, one only needs to ask JJ about rapid switching.
Or, did I miss something here?

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Originally Posted by uncooked

i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts

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The only possible reason for something like this is that they were not connectecd correctly. If they were, this is patently untrue.

On many ocasions I have been at people's houses and asked to comment on their systems etc. Generally during any kind of review I try to glance at the cabling. You would be amazed how often I find blackened copper ends held at best loosely into their sockets. As a matter of course I will snip off those blackened ends, expose some clean copper from under the sheath and properly tighten the connections.

Sometimes this simple fix can provide discernable improvement in the sound - sometimes not (to the owner I mean).

On other ocasions I have found cables worn, bent at right angles and even nailed to the wall (through the copper). I generally suggest replacement under these circumstances - unless there is sufficient wire to cut off the damaged sections.

To say someone is lying when they find huge differences in cables is wrong - there can be many and various causes aside from any sonic benefits of one cable over another.

MY favorite of all was a friend who bought a pair of Klipsch KLF 30's and was complaining of having no bass (each speaker has 2 12 inch woofers in a ported enclosure). when I went round I discovered the problem was the cable. He had only connected the upper connectors - the lower ones were not connected to anything (the little solid copper links usually supplied were MIA). I cut about 3 inches off each cable run and linked the 2 connectors together. Made quite a difference...

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Originally Posted by mtrycraft

Since rapid switching has been demonstrated to be the best for detection, how is it arrogant to draw that conclusion? Oh, one only needs to ask JJ about rapid switching.
Or, did I miss something here?

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You missed something.

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Originally Posted by pctower

You missed something.

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Beat me to the punch!

rw

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

or..................

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3. Carefully chooses one or more musical passages that are:
---- A. very well known to the listener
---- B. selected to identify a particular characterisitic or variation.

I guess then that you have experimented little with speaker placement, listening position, or room treatments, as none offer an instantaneous switching capability. You might be surprised how critical room placement can be and how valuable room treatments can be.

Here are a couple of examples I've used.

1. My 30x15 room inherently possesses some rather vicious room nodes. One centered around 30hz was actually at times entertaining. I chose the "Yulunga" cut from Dead Can Dance's Toward the Within album to measure the success of using bass traps. There is an acoustical drum that extends down to the bottom octaves. Before using the traps, the strike of the drum created an extended "boom" past the initial strike. Fun, but not real. After putting traps in the two corners behind the panels, the same drum sounded very different. The initial strike was cleaner and the boom disappeared.

2. Among their many benefits, my bipolar electrostatic speakers are an utter b*tch to position for the best midbass and imaging. To fine tune the distance in the room, I chose the female voice as I find I am very sensitive to changes in that "instrument". Using the "golden triangle" method, I began with a distance to back wall of about seven feet. Then I began a long process of experimenting with both that distance and optimum listening position. I chose a combination that sounded most lifelike to me. That meant moving the speakers further out to about eight feet and moving my initial listening position somewhat closer. I chose a number of favorite vocalists including that of my wife (who has a very clear voice and sings in a barbershop chorus).

It can be done my friend.

rw

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Originally Posted by pctower

Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

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Well, members at CA do it all the time :D

As Mtry mentioned, rapid switching is very effective way to distinguish subtle changes between cables as it will take memory coloration out of picture. I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.

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Originally Posted by E-Stat

I guess then that you have experimented little with speaker placement, listening position, or room treatments, as none offer an instantaneous switching capability.

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That is true, but most of the time speaker placement effects are not subtle at all and often dramatic. And one can forecasts what type of effect speaker placement will have on the sound so as to pay close attention to it. For example, when you placed traps around your room, you were paying very close attention to bass notes to see if its effects are improvement or not.

But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

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Huh? It works for everyone who can read in either case.

rw

I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.

But you can do rapid switching under DBT, especially with an ABX box:)
Test subject will do this on their own without instruction as they discover the advantages of this.


But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

If the cables are comparable, 12ga -16ga, it is very predictable, nothing will happen. :)

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Originally Posted by markw

The only possible reason for something like this is that they were not connectecd correctly. If they were, this is patently untrue.

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well it is different now, they were connected properly for sure, and now that the new wire is on i can turn it up as loud as i want with no distortion, before the voices in movies would get really harsh, everybody would have a really bad lisp, every s was dragged out. now its perfect.

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Originally Posted by uncooked

well it is different now, they were connected properly for sure, and now that the new wire is on i can turn it up as loud as i want with no distortion, before the voices in movies would get really harsh, everybody would have a really bad lisp, every s was dragged out. now its perfect.

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The reason I ask this, and I doubt your claim, is that when cable differences do exist (and, yes, they possibly can) it takes a system of fairly high resoultion and even then, the differences are subtle at best and yhen heard only under fairly careful listening.

Not to sound elitist. but somehow I don't think yoursystem has that resolving power. Mine doesn't and you can view it @ audioasylum under markw*.

Now, here you are claiming a monumentous gain in quality? Sometimes we hear what we want to hear, not what is. If there was a change in sound, odds are it was a bad connection that was fixed when you changed cables.

But to hang that change on cables? Nahhhh.

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Originally Posted by markw

If there was a change in sound, odds are it was a bad connection that was fixed when you changed cables.

But to hang that change on cables? Nahhhh.

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I would have to agree.

rw

there was no bad connection for sure, im very carefull about thoughs things, every strand of the cable goes in as well, i make sure not to cut or severe any strand.

and all i can say is that distortion at high volumes is gone. its not something you can just believe. i have had people comment on it sounding better, "becuase i watch movies, and music really loud with friends" and they noticed the change as well, and they know nothing about audio stuff.

but like i said, "it probably doesnt count" it was really bad cable to start with, it was like commercial data transfer wire, that some neighbour gave us and said it was awsome stuff, but it wasnt......... i have my rears turned up to 14 feet away, when there really only 7, in order to make the level with the fronts, thats how much signal it loses from around 40 feet of this wire. and ive tested it, since i have a rear centre as well, and that is run with good wire, i plugged a speaker into that and set it for 7 feet and it works loud and clear.

I am curious as to the physical differences in the old/new wires. What is the gauge of the two wires in question?

Nobody has ever disputed that a wide disparity in wire gauge over a distance can cause a voltage drop, which is measurable and can, in some cases, be audiable.

If that's the case, then there could be a reason for you having to drive the amp so hard as to strain it, which is what you seem to describe. Using a high gauge (thin) wire for a long run is a no no.

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

Well, members at CA do it all the time :D

As Mtry mentioned, rapid switching is very effective way to distinguish subtle changes between cables as it will take memory coloration out of picture. I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.



That is true, but most of the time speaker placement effects are not subtle at all and often dramatic. And one can forecasts what type of effect speaker placement will have on the sound so as to pay close attention to it. For example, when you placed traps around your room, you were paying very close attention to bass notes to see if its effects are improvement or not.

But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

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Personally, I suspect that a scientifically proper cable DBT has never been reported. Probably one has never even been conducted. Therefore, claims and statements made by both sides are mainly mental masturbation.

E-stat explained in a recent post why cable companies don't bother to conduct scientific DBTs, and no one else seems to care enough to do so.

Audio (as opposed to home entertainment and background music) has always been primarily for those who have a dedicated listening area with two speakers properly placed in relationship to a single sitting position. Audiophiles are those who are passionately interested in music AND good home reproduction, to the point that their approach to electronic home reproduction of music is very much at variance with the general population. Audiophiles are people who sit in front of their two speakers for hours on end the way most other boobs sit in front of TVs. Because of the serious nature of their listening habits, audiophiles are naturally prone to seek improvements in their systems, where most people don't care because their systems are primarily for background music, and hiding all equipment, cables and speakers is the primary deisign consideration for their systems.

The vast majority of audiophiles have always made decisions based on what they perceive to make improvements in their systems that were worth the cost of these improvements. They care about how their own system sounds to them - they don't care about the science or lack of science in back of what they do. Moreover, they make their decisions consistent with the way they listen - sighted and non-scientifically.

If these kind of people didn't exist, there would be no Audio industry and virtually no audiophiles. Companies such as Levinson, Rowland, Krell, Audio Research, MIT, Transparent, Audioquest, Conrad-Johnson, Vandersteen, SoundLab, etc would never have come into existence and this site would not exist if audiophiles took the scientific approach the few stallwarts on this board seem to demand.

Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not believe anyone on this board or on any audio board has ever really dealt with audio DBTs in a valid, scientific manner. There are difficult statistical issues involved. In addition, the validity of tests is dependent upon the expertise behind the tests. The required expertise is not engineering. Rather it comes more from psychologists. And as far as I can tell there are virtually no people who possess the degree of expertise in the proper disciplines that would be required to set up, hold or opinine on valid blind testing as applied to cables (or for that matter all other components) who ever post on the internet.

Every four to six months in a hot humid climate, or every 8 to 12 months in a dry environment, take apart all your wires and clean the ends of the wires and terminations
and jacks with contact cleaner such as the Caig deoxIT I use (or one of a hundred other brands).

Clean the inside of rarely used controls such as the balance control, bass & treble control every six months for old equipment (over 8-10 years old .. and every year for newer equipment. More often in hot humid areas.

Then tighten all connections (very tight without breaking anything).

You are more likely to hear ... the same improvement you'd hear if you replaced your old corroded wires/loose connections with new clean wires and tight connections. Of course then you'd attribute the change to the new wires.

Or maybe everythibng will sound the same, but at least you will be busy and productive for a while. and far away from this WireNut/WirePolice asylum!

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Originally Posted by pctower

Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not believe anyone on this board or on any audio board has ever really dealt with audio DBTs in a valid, scientific manner. There are difficult statistical issues involved. In addition, the validity of tests is dependent upon the expertise behind the tests. The required expertise is not engineering. Rather it comes more from psychologists. And as far as I can tell there are virtually no people who possess the degree of expertise in the proper disciplines that would be required to set up, hold or opinine on valid blind testing as applied to cables (or for that matter all other components) who ever post on the internet.

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Perhaps you should contact Dr Toole? He know how and what his data is on wires. It comes down to wire basics, R, I, C.

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Originally Posted by bturk667

I can and have heard the differences cables can make in MY system!
If you or others can not hear any differences when trying them in your own systems , big deal. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!

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........Exactly what differences do you hear? Can you describe what gains you noticed in detail or what you noticed as a loss?.........Zapr

Aren't cables and the differences that they can make to a system great?!?

Gains: Bass detail, crisper and more vibrant high end, allows for better detail. Also, a better sense of air.
Loss: Background noise was quelled. Example: Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" on CD, has an audible amount of hiss. With the Blue Heavens in place, the hiss is less audible. It is easier to focus on the musicians and their masterful playing.

Yeah, it does have hiss. It's part of the recording, or at least the media it's recorded on.

Now, if that hiss is part of the recording, and cables attenuate this particular frequency range for t his recording, how do they know to not attenuate this frequency range on recordings that don't have hiss in this range?

Why ask me, ask Nordost. Anyway, that was just one example. The sound is cleaner on all recordings. By the way, "Kind of Blue" on vinyl, has no hiss!

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Originally Posted by mtrycraft

Perhaps you should contact Dr Toole? He know how and what his data is on wires. It comes down to wire basics, R, I, C.

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He has to my knowledge never even claimed to have conducted DBTs on cables. If you know otherwise, please enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by pctower

He has to my knowledge never even claimed to have conducted DBTs on cables. If you know otherwise, please enlighten me.

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I have second hand knowledge that he has conducted DBTs on speaker wires. When he was designing speakers and testing them, he wanted to make sure all of the variables in his DBTs on speakers were controlled and that included the cables. He found that cables did not affect the sound of his speakers.

I cannot verify this story but I have no reason to doubt the person that told me this.

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Originally Posted by pctower

If these kind of people [audiophiles] didn't exist, there would be no Audio industry and virtually no audiophiles. Companies such as Levinson, Rowland, Krell, Audio Research, MIT, Transparent, Audioquest, Conrad-Johnson, Vandersteen, SoundLab, etc would never have come into existence and this site would not exist if audiophiles took the scientific approach the few stallwarts on this board seem to demand.

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I really don't see what that got to do with cables. Are you saying that any audiophile that don't belive in exotic bales is not an audiophile-even if they owns expensive equipment from companies you mentioned?

There are alot of audiophile or professionals (even on this site such as Terrence or Greene) that do own or worked with expensive components, but do not belive in exotic cables. And they like listen to music as much as next audiophile :)

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Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike

I have second hand knowledge that he has conducted DBTs on speaker wires. When he was designing speakers and testing them, he wanted to make sure all of the variables in his DBTs on speakers were controlled and that included the cables. He found that cables did not affect the sound of his speakers.

I cannot verify this story but I have no reason to doubt the person that told me this.

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A number of years ago I corresponded with him on this and a couple of other issues. Your second hand story is factual :) Cables boiled down to the old standard, R, C, L. nothing more.

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Originally Posted by bturk667

Why ask me, ask Nordost. Anyway, that was just one example. The sound is cleaner on all recordings. By the way, "Kind of Blue" on vinyl, has no hiss!

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........Thanks bturk667. Which Nordost cables do you use and can you tell me how much $? I'm looking for something that will tone the treble region down somewhat without spending a whole lot.........Zapr.

........Thanks bturk667. Which Nordost cables do you use and can you tell me how much $?

Too much for what it just cannot do, has not been demonstrated it can do.




I'm looking for something that will tone the treble region down somewhat without spending a whole lot.........Zapr.

Use your tone control, it is free. Or, add a resistor in the line, maybe a 1/2 ohm, will tame your treble, about a $1. Or, cover your tweeter, free.

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Originally Posted by mtrycraft

........Thanks bturk667. Which Nordost cables do you use and can you tell me how much $?

Too much for what it just cannot do, has not been demonstrated it can do.




I'm looking for something that will tone the treble region down somewhat without spending a whole lot.........Zapr.

Use your tone control, it is free. Or, add a resistor in the line, maybe a 1/2 ohm, will tame your treble, about a $1. Or, cover your tweeter, free.

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........Thanks Mtry. Any idea where I could get such a resistor. I checked rat shack but they don't carry resistors anymore..........Zapr.

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Originally Posted by zapr

........Thanks Mtry. Any idea where I could get such a resistor. I checked rat shack but they don't carry resistors anymore..........Zapr.

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That is hard to believe they don't. Try the yellow pages for an electronics parts store. On line search?

Richard Dunlavy of the defunkt speaker company did a really dirty thing to a group of audiophiles. He sat them down in a listening room. He allowed them to see "assistants" in lab coats "swap" anaconda-thick cable in place of some AWG 12 OFC. The comments were mostly "Wow ! what an incredible improvement!!!" "My God Richard...tell me you can't hear that!" Problem is, they never actually switched out the cables from the AWG 12.

I believe that cables are in essence, a tone filter. I believe the compensate for system nasties. That does not mean I endorse expensive cables. I think it is obscene and criminal for NBS to charge $30,000 for cables. $3000 is obscene for that matter, it's just wire!!! $3000 will get you a killer source component or speakers that will make a BIG difference, not a cable that makes a small one.

I have tried MIT cables in my system, and let me tell you...the results were ugly. The R/C of that stuff must be very high. It was like putting a towel over my tweeters. OFC 12 sounded better. MIT does some nasty things to color the signal.

DNM cable (not recommended for speaker cable!) has poor sheilding. You can hear the loss treble and bass. Your system goes flat, because a lot of the signal is radiated into space.

I have some old Audioquest cables that work exceptionally well. They are based on a helically wound copper, insulated by teflon, and again around the conductors by polypropelene. These can be found used for a few bucks. But they have exceptionally low R/C charactaristics, and exceptional shieilding.

The gist of all this is that IMO cables filter the sound. A good cable has low resistance to the signal, and good shielding. I prefer the best signal transfer, and that solution comes a lot cheaper than the cable industry will have you believe. I do not believe in "cable miracles." My AQ cable is a LITTLE better than standard OFC because of it's construction. But to say "Oh my Lord, it's night and day!!!" would be misrepresenting the contribution that cables have IMO.

I use the Nordost Blue Heavens; they retail for @ $180 a meter. Now the Solar Wind are also very good, there retail price is @ $120 a meter. You might want to take a listen to the kimber Kable Hero. It is a little softer in the high-end than the Nordost Blue Heavens. Their retail price ia @ $150 a meter. I know that these cables are expensive, but I feel there worth it.

Funny thing, Dunlavy had their own speaker cables that you could buy, go figure!

Dunlavy, along with Frank Van Alstein are basically whores when it comes to cables. Both went to great lengths to decry high end cables. But due to companies pressuring them, the coalesced, and ended up endorsing and/or making certain cables.

That tells you that the promise of income kicks any ethics butt.