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  1. #1
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    For All of You Who Love and Cherish Jon.

    I know the moderator doesn't like cross referencing other boards but I just can't resist this one.

    I once predicted that Jon would self-destruct under his own power. The end may be near:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t...neral&m=332085

    But hurry. That thread ain't long for this world!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    I know the moderator doesn't like cross referencing other boards but I just can't resist this one.

    I once predicted that Jon would self-destruct under his own power. The end may be near:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t...neral&m=332085

    But hurry. That thread ain't long for this world!
    Maybe it will be moved over to Whiner's Woad. This began some time ago:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=whine&m=4631
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  3. #3
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    What does your post(in the cable forum) have to do with cables?

    As a courtesy, it is common to place 'OT:" in the subject line of the thread in order to denote an off-topic(relative to the associated forum) subject.

    -Chris


    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    I know the moderator doesn't like cross referencing other boards but I just can't resist this one.

    I once predicted that Jon would self-destruct under his own power. The end may be near:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t...neral&m=332085

    But hurry. That thread ain't long for this world!

  4. #4
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    While I would tend to agree...

    ...PCTs post may have been more appropriate in the "General" forum, a great many of us "cable forum" regulars have a distict interest in the life and times of JR...after all it was here(in the cable forum) he made his claim to fame(?)...over...and over...and over again!

    AA is amusing, every now and again even I visit there to keep in touch with the "state-of-the-art"...well, the SOTA as some see it anywho...prop head reminds me of this place to some degree....

    jimHJJ(...PC, you've been very naughty...again...)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by WmAx
    What does your post(in the cable forum) have to do with cables?

    As a courtesy, it is common to place 'OT:" in the subject line of the thread in order to denote an off-topic(relative to the associated forum) subject.

    -Chris
    Courtesy is obviously of paramount importance to you.

    Therefore, I'm sure you would not want to forget that it is a matter of courtesy for a relative newcomer to a board not to jump to conclusions - get to know the board before you start telling others how they should be posting.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Courtesy is obviously of paramount importance to you.

    Therefore, I'm sure you would not want to forget that it is a matter of courtesy for a relative newcomer to a board not to jump to conclusions - get to know the board before you start telling others how they should be posting.
    So, if I had observed the cable forum for along enough period, I would have noticed that it is no place for common courtesy?

    If that is the case, I humbly offer my apology for making such a suggestion.

    -Chris

  7. #7
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    Whoa!...

    ...there IS a odd brand of courtesy shown in this place...no one is suggesting that there should be anything to the contrary...however, if YOU were more familiar with this forum you would know fully the background of the subject in question and would have not even batted an eye at Phil's post...Historically, JR presented himself in the manner which he did and was taken to task on a regular basis for it...that some of the same verbiage is being launched in his direction at his sanctum sanctorum is, to some of us, of special note...

    Is it somehow discourteous to you that you had to waste your time to read a post that seems to have absolutely no meaning or place here to YOU? Get over it!

    jimHJJ(...BTW and since you do me the discourtesy of making me repeat myself, JR is hardly an off-topic topic 'round these parts...)

  8. #8
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...there IS a odd brand of courtesy shown in this place...no one is suggesting that there should be anything to the contrary...however, if YOU were more familiar with this forum you would know fully the background of the subject in question and would have not even batted an eye at Phil's post...Historically, JR presented himself in the manner which he did and was taken to task on a regular basis for it...that some of the same verbiage is being launched in his direction at his sanctum sanctorum is, to some of us, of special note...

    Is it somehow discourteous to you that you had to waste your time to read a post that seems to have absolutely no meaning or place here to YOU? Get over it!

    jimHJJ(...BTW and since you do me the discourtesy of making me repeat myself, JR is hardly an off-topic topic 'round these parts...)
    Actually, I have been reading 'Jon' stuff for years. I'm aware of his 'stuff'.

    The main motivation behind posting was to give Phil something to reply to, pointlessly. I believe he enjoys doing such, based on his reply history of making 'federal' cases out of seemingly thin air and once admitting he liked to 'stroke it' as much as anyone. Had anyone else made the same post, verbatim, I would not have replied. Heck, I thought I was just engaing him in what he might consider enjoyable conversation. :-)

    Now you've gone and ruined my pathetic attempt at conversation. :-P

    -Chris

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    I know the moderator doesn't like cross referencing other boards but I just can't resist this one.

    I once predicted that Jon would self-destruct under his own power. The end may be near:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t...neral&m=332085

    But hurry. That thread ain't long for this world!
    This is actually a response to your post a AA http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...er&r=&session= since I cannot login there at this moment.

    Contrary to your uninformed assumption (gee – what’s new?), this statement actually reveals that Shakespeare was paying homage to lawyers as the defenders of civilized society.

    I'm sure this is what you and your lawyer friends believe. However, if you ask an educated person, like my father who has several degrees in English and is somewhat of a Shakespeare expert, you would find that Dick the Butcher was adding to Jack Cade's vision of Utopia as a place that is free of lawyers and has no need for lawyers.

    This is a direct putdown intended to show that while lawyers may be needed in our imperfect world, they would not be needed in Utopia and if present would proceed to screw it up.

    And FWIW, as an engineer hanging around these audio boards, I feel much like a lawyer might feel in Utopia.
    Friends help friends move,
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    This is actually a response to your post a AA http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...er&r=&session= since I cannot login there at this moment.

    Contrary to your uninformed assumption (gee – what’s new?), this statement actually reveals that Shakespeare was paying homage to lawyers as the defenders of civilized society.

    I'm sure this is what you and your lawyer friends believe. However, if you ask an educated person, like my father who has several degrees in English and is somewhat of a Shakespeare expert, you would find that Dick the Butcher was adding to Jack Cade's vision of Utopia as a place that is free of lawyers and has no need for lawyers.

    This is a direct putdown intended to show that while lawyers may be needed in our imperfect world, they would not be needed in Utopia and if present would proceed to screw it up.

    And FWIW, as an engineer hanging around these audio boards, I feel much like a lawyer might feel in Utopia.
    I don't know what my "lawyer friends" might think - I've never discussed this phrase with any of them - believe me we have better things to do.

    However, if you want to live in Cade's Utopia, be my guest:



    Cade. Be brave then, for your captain is brave and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven halfpenny loaves sold for a penny; the three-hoop'd pot shall have ten hoops, and I will make it felony to drink small beer. All the realm shall be in common, and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass; and when I am king, as king I will be—All. God save your Majesty!


    Cade. I thank you, good people. There shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers and worship me their lord.
    Butch. The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
    Cade. Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings; but I say 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.

    A Clerk is brought in as a prisoner:


    Weav. The clerk of Chatham. He can write and read and cast accompt.
    Cade. 0 monstrous!
    Weav. We took him setting of boys' copies.
    Cade. Here's a villain!
    Weav. Has a book in his pocket with red letters in't.
    Cade. Nay, then he is a conjurer.
    Butch. Nay, he can make obligations and write court-hand.
    Cade. I am sorry for't. The man is a proper man, of mine honour. Unless I find him guilty, he shall not die. Come hither, sirrah. I must examine thee. What is thy name?
    Clerk. Emanuel.
    Butch. They use to write it on the top of letters. 'Twill go hard with you.
    Cade. Let me alone. Dost thou use to write thy name? or hast thou a mark to thyself, like an honest plain-dealing man?
    Clerk. Sir, I thank God, I have been so well brought up that I can write my name.
    All. He hath confess'd! Away with him! He's a villain and a traitor!
    Cade. Away with him, I say! Hang him with his pen and inkhorn about his neck.

    (Pt.2, IV.ii.92-117)

    Soon afterwards, a soldier is killed for calling Cade by his name:


    Cade. Now is Mortimer lord of this city. And here, sitting upon London Stone, I charge and command that, of the city's cost, the pissing conduit run nothing but claret wine this first year of our reign. And now henceforward it shall be treason for any that calls me other than Lord Mortimer.

    Enter a Soldier, running.


    Sold. Jack Cade! Jack Cade!
    Cade. Knock him down there.

    They kill him.
    (Pt.2, IV.vi.1-9)
    I for one would choose to skip that Utopia and sit on a remote beach where no one is needed ((including engineers - who I don't think would have faired well either in Cade's (opps - I mean Lord Mortimer's)) Utopia.


    In fairness, I don't think that Sharkespeare was so shallow as to pose the question is such stark terms - either kill them all or praise them them all as the great defenders of civilization. He would never paint with such a broad brush.

    Shakespeare well understood the imperfections of man - perhaps as well as anyone ever has. A good argument has been made that it was the corrupt lawyers and corrupt laws that he was attacking:

    Swanson concluded by offering a third, middle-of-the-road analysis that he thought accurately described the situation. Swanson said that, while the phrase itself and its surrounding context are both clearly intended to be humorous attacks on lawyers, Shakespeare also recognized the value of legal professionals in preserving liberty by having the line uttered by an insurgent. In doing so, he concluded that Shakespeare truly intended the phrase to be an indictment of corrupt lawyers and perverted law.

    Swanson concluded that in doing so, Shakespeare truly intended the phrase to be a portrayal of corrupt lawyers and the laws they pervert as the true enemies to sound government, justice, and freedom.


    (my emphasis added)

    See: http://www.carolinajournal.com/issue...ry.html?id=962

    Unlike Curl (to whom my comment was directed) who professed hatred of all lawyers, Shakespeare understood the difference between the role that the ideals of given a group play and the way bad seeds within the group (inevitable because the group consists of humans) can undermine those ideals. He would not in ignorance condemn an entire group because of the failings of some members of that group. To do so would require the condemnation of all groups, because no group can avoid bad apples. To condemn all groups in broad brush terms would consitute a blanket condemnation of all humans. Had that been a major theme of Shakespeare I doubt we today would have ever heard of him.

    By way of example, many of us Americans (me included) are unwilling to condemn all 150,000 American military personnel in Iraq because of what certain individuals (and likely some of their commanders) may have done to Iraqi prisoners.

    One final comment: I recently attended a talk Gerry Spence gave to a group of lawyers. He discussed the Shakespeare quote. However, he is the first lawyer I have ever heard who seriously condemned lawyer jokes. Spence is a true crusader and he understands the role that lawyers can play as defenders of individual rights and liberty. He personally finds nothing funny in lawyer jokes because as he views them they denegrate a group that is absolutely essential to maintaining liberty.

    Also, as long as you are cross referencing my posts over at AA on this subject, I would also ask you to consider:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pr...ages/8739.html

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Also, as long as you are cross referencing my posts over at AA on this subject, I would also ask you to consider:

    http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pr...ages/8739.html
    We can argue all day about what we think Shakespeare meant. I offered my father's opinion since he is highly educated in Shakespeare and the English language in general having been a high school teacher for 40 years.

    I certainly do not hold the same opinion as John Curl and I do agree with your repsonses to him in that thread.

    Personally, I believe OJ will rot in hell for his double murder. And the reason he got off is threefold, IMHO. Trying on the that glove (over another rubber glove mind you), finding out that Mark Furman uttered the n-word 12 years prior and just the general feeling that if OJ was found guilty, it would have been more damaging to society vis-avis rioting than if he was set free. I don't feel the jury was objective in reaching their decision but that's another story that really has nothing to do with lawyers.

    I think the negative feeling in general about lawyers is due to personal experience. I know in my case, I was jacked by a divorce lawyer for 2 thousand dollars and all he did was tell me to stay away from my home and gather financial information about us. I ended up firing him after two months and did my own divorce by sitting my ex-wife down and agreeing to how things would be split and then filling out the legal papers and filing them myself. She had told me her lawyer (a female) had wanted to go for the whole thing against me, house, pension, etc. Fortunately, she agreed with me that we should keep our money and split it instead of giving it to the lawyers. The total cost for that was only $350 in the end (other than the thousands we gave our repective lawyers).

    However, as you have said, it just isn't right to paint any group with a large brush based on isolated or even several negative occurances.

    After perusing that entire thread, it sure appears that there is a cult menality going on over there. Perhaps even Curl and Risch are unaware of how they are coming off to an objective outsider. I've always maintained that this entire debate/issue/debacle would be a great study for psychology students.
    Last edited by Monstrous Mike; 06-07-2004 at 10:30 AM.
    Friends help friends move,
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  12. #12
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    I'll say it again

    "that there is a cult menality going on over there"

    There is in fact a very real cult mentality there. And it is created deliberately IMO for a cynical purpose. That purpose as I have said many times in the past is to inculcate the notion in its participants, those touched by its participants, and ultimately in the public mind in general that non standard, meaning more expensive audio cables are an indespensible part of a fine sound system. While this flies in the face of all legitimate scientific knowledge acquired so far, it plays right into the hands of some of the sponsers who front the money for that site. The owner, manager, or whatever you'd call him has unashamedly admitted as much in the past in his proposed "mission statement." This is not the hard sell pushing the products of the sponsors. Exactly the opposite, this is a very soft sell not permitting anyone to promote their own wares. The purpose is only to plant the notion in the participants minds. Weasel worded product literature and fast talking retail salesmen do all the dirty work later on.

    Despite the claim that the anti DBT rule exists at CA to prevent flame wars, we have no such rule here but on those rare occasions I have visited there, it seemed to me that we have far fewer flame wars here with no anti DBT rule. By restricting free and open debate, IMO CA is a far poorer site than this one is.

    Jon Risch's role there is to enforce their rules. But far from seeing to it that the participants merely remain within the bounds of civility or stick to a relavent discussion, he is in effect a censor enforcing the policy that all discussion stay away from DBTs, a subject germaine to the very notion of the validity of the basic assupmtion of the value of these cables to the consumer. To have a free and open discussion on this subject would be to challenge the very mindset that the owners and financial backers are evidently trying to promote. What has distressed me most about Jon Risch is that assuming he is a trained (degreed) engineer as he claims, he is participating in denying to others the same unbounded intellectual curiousity and freedom of discussion he was given by his professors during his own education, an education which should provide him with many of the material comforts life can offer and the respect he might not otherwise enjoy.

    As for John Curl, to those who have no technical background, he may appear as some sort of guru or oracle handing down knowledge from an intellectual Olympus but frankly, once he gets beyond his specialty of amplifier design and begins going off into subjects he apparantly knows very little or nothing about such as the quantum physics of electrical conductivity, his arguements to those who are knowledgable are often a joke.

    If you go there looking to learn something, contribute or merely participate, just be aware of what you are dealing with. I was there for about a month or two several years ago before I quit. It's not my cup of tea.
    Last edited by skeptic; 06-07-2004 at 05:45 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    "that there is a cult menality going on over there"

    There is in fact a very real cult mentality there. And it is created deliberately IMO for a cynical purpose. That purpose as I have said many times in the past is to inculcate the notion in its participants, those touched by its participants, and ultimately in the public mind in general that non standard, meaning more expensive audio cables are an indespensible part of a fine sound system. While this flies in the face of all legitimate scientific knowledge acquired so far, it plays right into the hands of some of the sponsers who front the money for that site. The owner, manager, or whatever you'd call him has unashamedly admitted as much in the past in his proposed "mission statement." This is not the hard sell pushing the products of the sponsors. Exactly the opposite, this is a very soft sell not permitting anyone to promote their own wares. The purpose is only to plant the notion in the participants minds. Weasel worded product literature and fast talking retail salesmen do all the dirty work later on.

    Despite the claim that the anti DBT rule exists at CA to prevent flame wars, we have no such rule here but on those rare occasions I have visited there, it seemed to me that we have far fewer flame wars here with no anti DBT rule. By restricting free and open debate, IMO CA is a far poorer site than this one is.

    Jon Risch's role there is to enforce their rules. But far from seeing to it that the participants merely remain within the bounds of civility or stick to a relavent discussion, he is in effect a censor enforcing the policy that all discussion stay away from DBTs, a subject germaine to the very notion of the validity of the basic assupmtion of the value of these cables to the consumer. To have a free and open discussion on this subject would be to challenge the very mindset that the owners and financial backers are evidently trying to promote. What has distressed me most about Jon Risch is that assuming he is a trained (degreed) engineer as he claims, he is participating in denying the same unbounded intellectual curiousity and freedom of discussion he was given by others during his own education, an education which should provide him with many of the material comforts life can offer and the respect he might not otherwise enjoy.

    As for John Curl, to those who have no technical background, he may appear as some sort of guru or oracle handing down knowledge from an intellectual Olympus but frankly, once he gets beyond his specialty of amplifier design and begins going off into subjects he apparantly knows very little or nothing about such as the quantum physics of electrical conductivity, his arguements to those who are knowledgable are often a joke.

    If you go there looking to learn something, contribute or merely participate, just be aware of what you are dealing with. I was there for about a month or two several years ago before I quit. It's not my cup of tea.
    Divorce lawyers are the Jon Risch's of the legal profession.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    "that there is a cult menality going on over there"

    There is in fact a very real cult mentality there. And it is created deliberately IMO for a cynical purpose. That purpose as I have said many times in the past is to inculcate the notion in its participants, those touched by its participants, and ultimately in the public mind in general that non standard, meaning more expensive audio cables are an indespensible part of a fine sound system. While this flies in the face of all legitimate scientific knowledge acquired so far, it plays right into the hands of some of the sponsers who front the money for that site. The owner, manager, or whatever you'd call him has unashamedly admitted as much in the past in his proposed "mission statement." This is not the hard sell pushing the products of the sponsors. Exactly the opposite, this is a very soft sell not permitting anyone to promote their own wares. The purpose is only to plant the notion in the participants minds. Weasel worded product literature and fast talking retail salesmen do all the dirty work later on.

    Despite the claim that the anti DBT rule exists at CA to prevent flame wars, we have no such rule here but on those rare occasions I have visited there, it seemed to me that we have far fewer flame wars here with no anti DBT rule. By restricting free and open debate, IMO CA is a far poorer site than this one is.

    Jon Risch's role there is to enforce their rules. But far from seeing to it that the participants merely remain within the bounds of civility or stick to a relavent discussion, he is in effect a censor enforcing the policy that all discussion stay away from DBTs, a subject germaine to the very notion of the validity of the basic assupmtion of the value of these cables to the consumer. To have a free and open discussion on this subject would be to challenge the very mindset that the owners and financial backers are evidently trying to promote. What has distressed me most about Jon Risch is that assuming he is a trained (degreed) engineer as he claims, he is participating in denying the same unbounded intellectual curiousity and freedom of discussion he was given by others during his own education, an education which should provide him with many of the material comforts life can offer and the respect he might not otherwise enjoy.

    As for John Curl, to those who have no technical background, he may appear as some sort of guru or oracle handing down knowledge from an intellectual Olympus but frankly, once he gets beyond his specialty of amplifier design and begins going off into subjects he apparantly knows very little or nothing about such as the quantum physics of electrical conductivity, his arguements to those who are knowledgable are often a joke.

    If you go there looking to learn something, contribute or merely participate, just be aware of what you are dealing with. I was there for about a month or two several years ago before I quit. It's not my cup of tea.

    I thought I recalled seeing a lot of posts over at CA about that TAS reviewed Home Depot cable, which is supposed to be an inexpensive alternative to some of the costly audiophile cables. So I did a CA search back to April 1, and found 158 records for Home Depot, which is not a CA sponsor, compared to 89 for Kimber Cable, which is a sponsor. I also frequently see inexpensive DIY cables discussed and recommended at CA. If advice on how to avoid paying high prices for cables is what you mean by a "soft sell" designed to promote the sale of high-priced cables, I don't follow your reasoning.

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    That's not what I mean. For at least 40 years, people who had any interest in audio equipment followed the lead of radio, television, and motion picture engineers using the products developed specifically for those industries exclusively as the means for connecting all audio gear including the best the industry had to offer. There was no question of it. The industry that manufactures wire and cable are extremely capable and have many engineers and scientists who work with their customers to develop and supply the best products for each particular task. These people were not incompetent dummies and if there had been additional profits to be made for their companies legitimately by improving their products or introducing new ones, they would have been only too happy to develop and supply them. In the mid 1980s to early 1990s I had the responsibility to specify and buy about a million dollars of different kinds of wire for different projects I was working on. In the first of them, I spent about a third of that amount on one project. It seemed to me that I had every wire manufacturer's sales rep in my office at one time or another and while I never had a single order that large again, the sales reps kept coming around to try to sell me their products. So one day, I put it to the Belden rep. Belden was and still remains a kind of benchmark of quality and range of products for the wire industry. Paraphrasing, this is what she told me; "We make every kind of wire there is. If there is a special item you need and we don't make or sell, tell us what you want and we will custom make it for you. But you'd be throwing your money away buying special audiophile cables." Of course, later on, Belden saw the profits to be made in the audio cable industry and may have modified their stance somewhat. They have to walk a fine line between maximizing profits and not making any false claims in order to maintain their reputation among their industrial clients which generate the overwhelming majority of their sales.

    Sometime probably around the mid to late 1970s, the audiophile cable industry was born. This was a good time for a new cottage industry selling to fairly affluent, not too well informed niche market. High end audio equipment was a prestige possession, a lot like an expensive car, a boat, or a large house. Although they had no proof or evidence of the value of their products, they did surprisingly well. Monster Cable was among the first. Their goal apparantly was to grow the goose that was laying their golden eggs. They wanted to grow this market by playing to the snob appeal of their product and to create the idea in people's minds that if you are going to buy expensive audio gear, you are wasting your money if you don't buy special cables to go along with it. This is also the goal IMO of Cable Asylum, trying to create that notion. Telling people who are posting there to go out and buy Kimber Kable or XYZ brand is the last thing in the world they want to do. That would completely defeat their purpose because while it might result in a handful of sales, it would reveal the web site as an advertising billboard. They are not trying to advertise products, they are trying to legitimize a concept that has no validity based on objective facts. Therefore discussions must remain general, the sponsors who manufacture or sell these products often remain anonymous or certainly not high profile and they must NEVER, NEVER, NEVER push their own products. They use psychology very well. Once you are hooked on the idea that upgraded Home Depot wire is better, it's only a matter of time before you start thinking about upgrading again to something else, possibly something more expensive. And it's only a matter of time before other people ask you as their expert for advice.

    If you read the product literature very carefully, the way a lawyer would, you will see that few if any of them actually make any claims that your sound system will perform better with their product. It may be implied, suggested, left for you to draw that conclusion but it is not overtly stated. They can't legally do that. Not according to the FTC rules on fair advertising. Now you may get that verbally from the kid in Circuit City or the guy in Uptown Audio Salons whether he's selling you Monster Cable or Super Duper Ultrawire but it will not be in writing and it is easily disavowed by the manufacturer. Furthermore, many if not most manufacturers and even retailers will be only too happy to offer to refund your money if you are not happy with your purchase. (That BTW in itself does not meet the FTC's criteria for fair advertising.) We had someone post here about a year or two ago who had received audiophile cables as a gift, had reason to cut one open, found out that they were nothing more than 16 gage zip cord inside, contacted the manufacturer who acknowledged that was exactly what was in it. Their offer for a full refund was rejected because the recipient liked the look of the cables. Most people who buy audiophile cables are probably very happy with their purchases and have convinced themselves that they actually do make their sound systems sound better. If you think that this psychology doesn't work, consider that you will rarely go to a doctor's office with a complaint and leave without a prescription for something even though often the doctor knows that you would get better just as quickly without anything, and many prescription drugs are just higher doses of over the counter medications such as Ibuprophen or pseudofed. If you ever get antiboitics for a viral infection such as a cold or the flu, you will know you have had this experience. BTW, most experts would advise you against taking them for this kind of infection. They have no effect and can decrease your resistance to superinfections so they won't work when you actually do need them.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular gonefishin's Avatar
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    The above (and below) post by skeptic should be put in the Buying Guides & How-To Articles from our Members section...or a sticky...or something.
    In all my years at AR, this is the best single post I've seen against the purchase of expensive high dollar cables.

    kudos!



    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    That's not what I mean. For at least 40 years, people who had any interest in audio equipment followed the lead of radio, television, and motion picture engineers using the products developed specifically for those industries exclusively as the means for connecting all audio gear including the best the industry had to offer. There was no question of it. The industry that manufactures wire and cable are extremely capable and have many engineers and scientists who work with their customers to develop and supply the best products for each particular task. These people were not incompetent dummies and if there had been additional profits to be made for their companies legitimately by improving their products or introducing new ones, they would have been only too happy to develop and supply them. In the mid 1980s to early 1990s I had the responsibility to specify and buy about a million dollars of different kinds of wire for different projects I was working on. In the first of them, I spent about a third of that amount on one project. It seemed to me that I had every wire manufacturer's sales rep in my office at one time or another and while I never had a single order that large again, the sales reps kept coming around to try to sell me their products. So one day, I put it to the Belden rep. Belden was and still remains a kind of benchmark of quality and range of products for the wire industry. Paraphrasing, this is what she told me; "We make every kind of wire there is. If there is a special item you need and we don't make or sell, tell us what you want and we will custom make it for you. But you'd be throwing your money away buying special audiophile cables." Of course, later on, Belden saw the profits to be made in the audio cable industry and may have modified their stance somewhat. They have to walk a fine line between maximizing profits and not making any false claims in order to maintain their reputation among their industrial clients which generate the overwhelming majority of their sales.

    Sometime probably around the mid to late 1970s, the audiophile cable industry was born. This was a good time for a new cottage industry selling to fairly affluent, not too well informed niche market. High end audio equipment was a prestige possession, a lot like an expensive car, a boat, or a large house. Although they had no proof or evidence of the value of their products, they did surprisingly well. Monster Cable was among the first. Their goal apparantly was to grow the goose that was laying their golden eggs. They wanted to grow this market by playing to the snob appeal of their product and to create the idea in people's minds that if you are going to buy expensive audio gear, you are wasting your money if you don't buy special cables to go along with it. This is also the goal IMO of Cable Asylum, trying to create that notion. Telling people who are posting there to go out and buy Kimber Kable or XYZ brand is the last thing in the world they want to do. That would completely defeat their purpose because while it might result in a handful of sales, it would reveal the web site as an advertising billboard. They are not trying to advertise products, they are trying to legitimize a concept that has no validity based on objective facts. Therefore discussions must remain general, the sponsors who manufacture or sell these products often remain anonymous or certainly not high profile and they must NEVER, NEVER, NEVER push their own products. They use psychology very well. Once you are hooked on the idea that upgraded Home Depot wire is better, it's only a matter of time before you start thinking about upgrading again to something else, possibly something more expensive. And it's only a matter of time before other people ask you as their expert for advice.

    If you read the product literature very carefully, the way a lawyer would, you will see that few if any of them actually make any claims that your sound system will perform better with their product. It may be implied, suggested, left for you to draw that conclusion but it is not overtly stated. They can't legally do that. Not according to the FTC rules on fair advertising. Now you may get that verbally from the kid in Circuit City or the guy in Uptown Audio Salons whether he's selling you Monster Cable or Super Duper Ultrawire but it will not be in writing and it is easily disavowed by the manufacturer. Furthermore, many if not most manufacturers and even retailers will be only too happy to offer to refund your money if you are not happy with your purchase. (That BTW in itself does not meet the FTC's criteria for fair advertising.) We had someone post here about a year or two ago who had received audiophile cables as a gift, had reason to cut one open, found out that they were nothing more than 16 gage zip cord inside, contacted the manufacturer who acknowledged that was exactly what was in it. Their offer for a full refund was rejected because the recipient liked the look of the cables. Most people who buy audiophile cables are probably very happy with their purchases and have convinced themselves that they actually do make their sound systems sound better. If you think that this psychology doesn't work, consider that you will rarely go to a doctor's office with a complaint and leave without a prescription for something even though often the doctor knows that you would get better just as quickly without anything, and many prescription drugs are just higher doses of over the counter medications such as Ibuprophen or pseudofed. If you ever get antiboitics for a viral infection such as a cold or the flu, you will know you have had this experience. BTW, most experts would advise you against taking them for this kind of infection. They have no effect and can decrease your resistance to superinfections so they won't work when you actually do need them.
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    enjoy the music!

  17. #17
    Forum Regular Thatch_Ear's Avatar
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    So the best use the high priced audiophile cables can be put to is to hang lawyers, engineers and doctors who over prescribe?
    I like my lawyer and think he is a great guy. I gave him a miniature of William Travis drawing the line in the sand at the Alamo. When presenting him with the gift I told him to remember and uphold the fine tradition set forth by Col William Travis. "To die in the Alamo?" he asked. "No, remember that he was the 1st lawyer shot to death in Texas". I am sure he remembers this everytime he sees the minuature which is daily because it is close to his front door.
    David Thatcher

  18. #18
    Forum Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    That's not what I mean. For at least 40 years, people who had any interest in audio equipment followed the lead of radio, television, and motion picture engineers using the products developed specifically for those industries exclusively as the means for connecting all audio gear including the best the industry had to offer. There was no question of it. The industry that manufactures wire and cable are extremely capable and have many engineers and scientists who work with their customers to develop and supply the best products for each particular task. These people were not incompetent dummies and if there had been additional profits to be made for their companies legitimately by improving their products or introducing new ones, they would have been only too happy to develop and supply them. In the mid 1980s to early 1990s I had the responsibility to specify and buy about a million dollars of different kinds of wire for different projects I was working on. In the first of them, I spent about a third of that amount on one project. It seemed to me that I had every wire manufacturer's sales rep in my office at one time or another and while I never had a single order that large again, the sales reps kept coming around to try to sell me their products. So one day, I put it to the Belden rep. Belden was and still remains a kind of benchmark of quality and range of products for the wire industry. Paraphrasing, this is what she told me; "We make every kind of wire there is. If there is a special item you need and we don't make or sell, tell us what you want and we will custom make it for you. But you'd be throwing your money away buying special audiophile cables." Of course, later on, Belden saw the profits to be made in the audio cable industry and may have modified their stance somewhat. They have to walk a fine line between maximizing profits and not making any false claims in order to maintain their reputation among their industrial clients which generate the overwhelming majority of their sales.

    Sometime probably around the mid to late 1970s, the audiophile cable industry was born. This was a good time for a new cottage industry selling to fairly affluent, not too well informed niche market. High end audio equipment was a prestige possession, a lot like an expensive car, a boat, or a large house. Although they had no proof or evidence of the value of their products, they did surprisingly well. Monster Cable was among the first. Their goal apparantly was to grow the goose that was laying their golden eggs. They wanted to grow this market by playing to the snob appeal of their product and to create the idea in people's minds that if you are going to buy expensive audio gear, you are wasting your money if you don't buy special cables to go along with it. This is also the goal IMO of Cable Asylum, trying to create that notion. Telling people who are posting there to go out and buy Kimber Kable or XYZ brand is the last thing in the world they want to do. That would completely defeat their purpose because while it might result in a handful of sales, it would reveal the web site as an advertising billboard. They are not trying to advertise products, they are trying to legitimize a concept that has no validity based on objective facts. Therefore discussions must remain general, the sponsors who manufacture or sell these products often remain anonymous or certainly not high profile and they must NEVER, NEVER, NEVER push their own products. They use psychology very well. Once you are hooked on the idea that upgraded Home Depot wire is better, it's only a matter of time before you start thinking about upgrading again to something else, possibly something more expensive. And it's only a matter of time before other people ask you as their expert for advice.

    If you read the product literature very carefully, the way a lawyer would, you will see that few if any of them actually make any claims that your sound system will perform better with their product. It may be implied, suggested, left for you to draw that conclusion but it is not overtly stated. They can't legally do that. Not according to the FTC rules on fair advertising. Now you may get that verbally from the kid in Circuit City or the guy in Uptown Audio Salons whether he's selling you Monster Cable or Super Duper Ultrawire but it will not be in writing and it is easily disavowed by the manufacturer. Furthermore, many if not most manufacturers and even retailers will be only too happy to offer to refund your money if you are not happy with your purchase. (That BTW in itself does not meet the FTC's criteria for fair advertising.) We had someone post here about a year or two ago who had received audiophile cables as a gift, had reason to cut one open, found out that they were nothing more than 16 gage zip cord inside, contacted the manufacturer who acknowledged that was exactly what was in it. Their offer for a full refund was rejected because the recipient liked the look of the cables. Most people who buy audiophile cables are probably very happy with their purchases and have convinced themselves that they actually do make their sound systems sound better. If you think that this psychology doesn't work, consider that you will rarely go to a doctor's office with a complaint and leave without a prescription for something even though often the doctor knows that you would get better just as quickly without anything, and many prescription drugs are just higher doses of over the counter medications such as Ibuprophen or pseudofed. If you ever get antiboitics for a viral infection such as a cold or the flu, you will know you have had this experience. BTW, most experts would advise you against taking them for this kind of infection. They have no effect and can decrease your resistance to superinfections so they won't work when you actually do need them.
    You didn't say "upgrade" means higher price, but you implied it does. I will assume you meant higher price, since your argument would be weakened otherwise. Here is why I think you were implying higher price: "Once you are hooked on the idea that upgraded Home Depot wire is better, it's only a matter of time before you start thinking about upgrading again to something else, possibly something more expensive."

    While I haven't read every post about CA members who tried the Home Depot cable, most of those I saw were comparing it to more expensive audiophile speaker cables rather than zip cord, and many were impressed with how well it compared. Obviously, these posts were not recommendations for buying high-priced speaker cables.

    Again, I have not read every CA post on DIY cables, but I recall few regarding DIY as a stopgap measure until funds were available for more expensive cables. My impression is that do-it-yourselfers would rather experiment with inexpensive cable designs than buy high-priced cables.

    I don't doubt that the existence of cable forums in general is good for the cable business. The fact that the AR cable forum has a lot of naysayers doesn't stop Better Cables and other firms from advertising here and supporting this forum. The notion that CA has developed and implemented a plan for growing the business of expensive cable makers, however, seems like a stretch. You may know something I don't know, but my guess is your view of CA is influenced by your imagination.
    Last edited by okiemax; 06-08-2004 at 05:43 PM.

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