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  1. #51
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Is this sheer speculation or you have some real evidence behind it?
    Gee, I guess you've never heard of FETs, have you? There is a mountain of evidence behind them for those who persue such things.

    rw

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    You're twisting again. No, a skating rink isn't going to be concerned with accuracy because it is a SKATING RINK! So, would your fancy-assed amp perform any better there???? You seem to be implying again that it could fix all their problems. Once again, you are mixing things together that are unrelated, this discussion is about amplifiers. AMPLIFIERS. Not the acoustics of a skating rink. Tell ya what, hire an acoustic consultant to help with the design a skating rink and you'll probably be able to have concerts there as well.
    The only twisting going on is that I'm rolling on the floor laughing. This is beginning to get ridiculous !!

    If you read the original thread to which Skeptic replied, I observed that the multi-million dollar PA system found at the Philips Arena in Atlanta (the contractor who designed and installed the system is one of my customers) was sonically inferior to those designed for high fidelity reproduction. The skating part came because the US Figure Skating National competition happened to be in Atlanta the week before. He readily agreed and further stated, "What kind of audiophile would confuse that kind of installation (sporting arenas) with a high fidelity sound reproduction system in a home?

    Amen, brother.

    No where did I ever suggest that for A PA APPLICATION WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE A HIGH FIDELITY COMPONENT. The mediocre amplifiers are not nearly as grating on the ears as are the giant horns. Who the heck cares what the sound is like for any sporting event anyway? That's what PA is all about. LOL!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Back on topic. You were claiming that the amp companies I mentioned, specifically Crown, have no concern for their products ability to reproduce music, it's time you back up that claim.
    What I did say is that sonic quality takes a decided back seat to a long list of other more important considerations for PA use, namely power, cooling, ruggedness, low impedance driving capability, etc. By all means, debate the specifics with Skeptic.


    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    What's even funnier, is that you keep harping about musical reality, yet it is these very systems containing Crown, Crest, QSC, equipment are what people listen to when they go to a concert and are comparing their home systems against.
    You mistake me for someone else. I make no musical comparisons against the base inferiority of a PA system. For the past thirty years of hearing those kind of "live" concerts, I've been too busy stuffing my ears with whatever I could find to help eliminate the shrill torture. The only reference to which I would use is to a live, unamplified event devoid of such crude equipment. A symphony orchestra. A barbershop quartet. My wife playing the baby grand in the living room. On a performance basis, comparing high resolution components to their PA system counterparts is like comparing New Balance running shoes to steel-toed work boots. Or a Ferrari Enzo to a Checker Marathon cab. Or a General Dynamics F-16 to a Boeing 737. Do you get the drift?

    As for the old Crowns, can you say gross amounts of TIM distortion?

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 01-23-2004 at 08:18 PM.

  3. #53
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    Audiophile double standard

    Not all professional sound installations are public address systems. There are many sound reinforcement systems including those sadly for concert halls where symphony orchestras perform. Whether part of the installation in a building or dragged into an arena by a rock group, this equipment is designed to produce music. There are many consideratons for these systems beyond what audiophiles need or expect. Extreme ruggedness and reliability in the face of endless physical and electrical abuse. The ability to produce large volumes of sound. Uniform coverage of an audience. Maximum gain before feedback. All this in addition to music that will please the audience. And yes cost is a factor. Nobody will buy "audiophile quality" amplifiers for professional installations. If Bryston wants to convince contractors to choose them instead of Crown, they'd better come up with a competitive price. And they probably sell them minor variants of the same amplifiers they market to audiphiles at many times the price.

    For all you "audiophiles" who treasure your old vinyl recordings of deafening rock concerts and remember hearing them live (when you still had hearing before blasting noise, drugs, and age took their toll), you were probably listening to Crown DC300 amplifiers, JBL loudspeakers, and 30 band graphic equalizers plus many active stages of solid state preamplification in mixing consoles. This is exactly what you reject in your playback equipment, the same equipment that produced you music in the first place. Now how do you explain that? And don't tell me apples and oranges. BTW, they didn't use expensive cables either. They didn't even exist but if they did, I assure you they wouldn't have been used. They spent their money on what they needed to get the job done creating the sound they wanted and nothing more. No illusions, no smoke or mirrors, no giving in to hype.

  4. #54
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    ...you were probably listening to Crown DC300 amplifiers, JBL loudspeakers, and 30 band graphic equalizers plus many active stages of solid state preamplification in mixing consoles.
    Indeed. Not only that, I owned a Crown amplifier when I was 17. "Live concert" in that respect is an oxymoron. You couldn't follow an instrumental line amongst the sonic muck if your life depended upon it. Clearly, my favorite recordings are those that do not use the multi-miking approach. The Telarc classical recordings are one example. Windham Hill is another label that uses a mimimalist approach. Their artists such as Liz Story, George Winston, Michael Hedges, etc. are usually recorded direct to 2 track with no compression or limiting using nice Schoeps or Neumann mikes.


    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    This is exactly what you reject in your playback equipment, the same equipment that produced you music in the first place. Now how do you explain that?
    Who said that the sound of those "live" events was ever above mediocre? As for "my" music, I had a pretty large classical collection when in my teens. I had a couple of mentors who introduced me to both better music and better equipment. Two were audio reviewers who had access to a wide range of equipment. I still remember how natural sounding orchestral music sounded on Tympanis driven by Audio Research electronics back in '76. Despite the artifice of most popular music today, the sound of Dido for example is far more "live" to me in my basement than in a "professional" venue. I hear subtleties of her voice lost at concerts and am able to clearly follow any instrumental line. People go to such concerts to see their favorite artists more than anything else.


    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    BTW, they didn't use expensive cables either...They spent their money on what they needed to get the job done creating the sound they wanted and nothing more.
    Absolutely. Why spend a penny on refining that which is pretty bad to start?

    rw

  5. #55
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    E-stat, you are the rare exception and you know it. I was addressing my comments to the peanut gallery.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Gee, I guess you've never heard of FETs, have you? There is a mountain of evidence behind them for those who persue such things.

    rw
    How about you just post a few, not the whole mountain, credible DBT citations?
    mtrycrafts

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    How about you just post a few, not the whole mountain, credible DBT citations?
    Let's start with the first question. Have you ever heard of field effect transistors?

    rw

  8. #58
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    One question.

    How many suggestion did you recieve?
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  9. #59
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    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    Short Answer:
    Don't waste your money. The power cord you have works fine.

    Long Answer:
    Here is what happens when power leaves the outlet. It goes through the power cord. It goes through a full wave rectifier. Capacitors are used to smooth out the voltage into a relatively constant voltage. Zeners, and/or voltage regulators are used to supply a constant voltage that supplies all of the parts of the component biasing transistors, powering motors, IC's, etc.

    The quality of the sound has nothing to do with the power cable and everthing to do with the power supply inside the component.

    As far as power cords go all you really need is a cord the can handel the current drawn by the cd player (less than 1 amp).

    THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!
    You should invest in a surge protector. As long as it can handle the power drawn by all the components plugged into it a cheap one will work fine. In fact I payed $10 for mine and it provides $10,000 worth of coverage against damage done due to a surge.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckman
    In fact I payed $10 for mine and it provides $10,000 worth of coverage against damage done due to a surge.
    You may want to check the fine print It applies after your own insurance leaves off I suppose if you don't have househod insurance, it applies.
    Not sure if that surg protector coverage is based on full replacement value or depreciated ones. It should pay the deductable thoug.
    mtrycrafts

  11. #61
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    One minor point of clarification. If the surge protector is an MOV device, it is in parallel to the load and normally draws no current itself. When the volage exceeds 176 volts, the peak of a 120 volt sine wave, the MOV effectively goes into a breakdown mode becoming a shunt clipper. Damage to the MOV usually depends on the height of the applied waveform and its duration as well as the rating of the MOV. I once had a scam artist type salesman in my office who sold one of my internal clients (unknown to me) just such a device (it had a few extra bells and whistles) at an outrageous price ($9000) for industiral use. They advertised it as having "infinite" capacity. There are other types of surge protectors which can be placed in series with the load. One such type is the ferroresonant transformer such as those pioneered and manufactured by Sola. But these are of course much more expensive. Even at an industrial level, it's buyer beware.

  12. #62
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    The only twisting going on is that I'm rolling on the floor laughing. This is beginning to get ridiculous !!

    rw
    I couldn't agree more. You make all sorts of claims and then instead of providing and evidence you know what you're talking about, you spew out personal anecdotes and try to pawn things off on someone else.

    So are you going to back up your claims yet, or just spew more gibberish?

    -Bruce

  13. #63
    Forum Regular sofsoldier's Avatar
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    What is wrong with your current cable? If you need a new power cable because of some damage, just get a direct replacement.

    Others will say after-market power cables are hype. I never tried one so I can speak one way or another, but I have a hard time imagining that an expensive power cable can make a difference since the AC power is converted to DC in the unit itself. Fluctuations in power is a known issue and I would hope the designers of the AC to DC converters would take this into concideration. AS a matter of fact, I believe that is the reason why components use DC!

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    So are you going to back up your claims yet, or just spew more gibberish?
    Regarding the different design priorities of PA and sound reinforcement equipment vs. high fidelily music equipment, why don't you direct that question to Skeptic, whose same assertions to mine were quoted? Here, let me remind you:

    The performance of a sound system at a skating rink or arena is not designed for accurate music reproduction. It is designed for high intelligibility, maximum gain before feedback, and uniform coverage of the audience.

    BTW, read Crown's press release for their newest flagship amplifier.

    http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/press/pr97.htm

    Here are some telling excerpts:

    "Crown positions I-Tech as their new flagship amplifier series for the touring and corporate PA markets."

    "With I-Tech, choosing a touring amplifier no longer has to involve making a series of compromises.”


    Maybe you just don't get it.

    rw

  15. #65
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Regarding the different design priorities of PA and sound reinforcement equipment vs. high fidelily music equipment, why don't you direct that question to Skeptic, whose same assertions to mine were quoted? Here, let me remind you:

    The performance of a sound system at a skating rink or arena is not designed for accurate music reproduction. It is designed for high intelligibility, maximum gain before feedback, and uniform coverage of the audience.
    You still haven't answered the first question, or provided evidence that amp manufacturers, as Crown, et al., are not concerned about musical reproduction. I'm still waiting your proof.


    BTW, read Crown's press release for their newest flagship amplifier.

    http://www.crownaudio.com/gen_htm/press/pr97.htm

    Here are some telling excerpts:

    "Crown positions I-Tech as their new flagship amplifier series for the touring and corporate PA markets."

    "With I-Tech, choosing a touring amplifier no longer has to involve making a series of compromises.”


    Maybe you just don't get it.

    rw
    Not this last statement.

    Please show me evidence where a company such as Crown, who is targeting a specific market, makes their product any less likely to do and excellent job of reproducing music. This has been your main claim, (and reiterate here, apparently) one for which you have yet to provide any evidence for and lots of rhetoric.

    -Bruce

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    You still haven't answered the first question, or provided evidence that amp manufacturers, as Crown, et al., are not concerned about musical reproduction. I'm still waiting your proof.
    If by the "first question", you mean this:

    You were claiming that the amp companies I mentioned, specifically Crown, have no concern for their products ability to reproduce music, it's time you back up that claim.

    I never said anything of the sort. What I did say was the GamuT was designed primarily for music. Capability for driving multiple PA bins at 1 ohm is irrelevant. Concern for cooling the unit in a small rack environment is irrelevant. Having networking capabilities for central management is irrelevant. Surviving the rigors of touring is irrelevant. The difference is one of priorities and attendant compromises. You post as though you are an engineer. Don't you know this already? The sonic result to me is clear. First through owning one of their products and hearing others. Secondly, through enduring many a PA system.

    If you like the sound of their amps, then by all means enjoy them!

    rw

  17. #67
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    If by the "first question", you mean this:

    You were claiming that the amp companies I mentioned, specifically Crown, have no concern for their products ability to reproduce music, it's time you back up that claim.

    I never said anything of the sort.
    No?

    The Crown and GamuT amplifiers are designed for different duty: the GamuT is primarily designed for reproducing music. At which it handily beats the old Crown using musical content.

    and:

    ...they were simply dreadful sounding.

    And in this post:

    The sonic result to me is clear.

    rw
    And if that isn't enough, you contradict yourself and then reinforce your claim:

    I make no musical comparisons against the base inferiority of a PA system

    It's obvious you have absolutely nothing that will back up your claims, beyond your personal anecdotes.

    -Bruce

  18. #68
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    It's obvious you have absolutely nothing that will back up your claims, beyond your personal anecdotes.
    Perhaps I inadvertently hit a sore spot. Is it possible that you use some PA gear in your music system?

    rw

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