What would it take to get this board moving again?

[E-Stat]

...one could always surmise that the dearth of newer studies on the subject might be a direct result of not wanting to "bite the hand that feeds". '83?

Why the nefarious motivation? I think the answer is far simpler for every kind of audio component. It is expensive to conduct truly scientifically valid tests and to what end? If $10,000 amplifiers are truly no better than a $200 pro amp, then why don't the low end companies "prove" that once and for all and increase their sales? Why doesn't Blue Jeans cable compare their stuff to Nordost Valhalla, prove theirs is just as good and end up owning the business? Or Bose with their deep pockets prove that the Wave Radio outperforms multi-thousand dollar systems? Out of hundreds, if not thousands, of audio companies producing all sorts of components, I rarely - if ever see mention of the results of DB testing to promote their products.

Why are DBTs considered unimportant as selling tools by the entire industry?

...like Klipsch who grudgingly add "bi-wire capability" at the markets' behest.

Speaking of proof, what is the proof of this assertion?

rw

[Resident Loser]

Why the nefarious motivation? I think the answer is far simpler for every kind of audio component. It is expensive to conduct truly scientifically valid tests and to what end? If $10,000 amplifiers are truly no better than a $200 pro amp, then why don't the low end companies "prove" that once and for all and increase their sales? Why doesn't Blue Jeans cable compare their stuff to Nordost Valhalla, prove theirs is just as good and end up owning the business? Or Bose with their deep pockets prove that the Wave Radio outperforms multi-thousand dollar systems? Out of hundreds, if not thousands, of audio companies producing all sorts of components, I rarely - if ever see mention of the results of DB testing to promote their products.

...the circle...be unbroken? I guess not, eh?

Is that $10K amp fifty times better than the $200 model? In a recent thread Krell was brought up. An integrated amp rated @200W into 8 Ohms or 400W into a 4ohm load (unfortunately nowhere in their literature can I determine if that's a per channel number or combined output)...Now doubling the power rating is impressive these days. but my trusty, vintage HK Citation 19 does the same thing, it's MSRP was around one quarter the price AND it has an ultra-wide bandwidth, something the Krell does not. I haven't had any complaints...with good software, I hear what can only be described with the usual audiophilic jargon re: depth, detail ad nauseum...And insofar as value, what exactly comprises value?...as an integrated the Krell falls short on what I consider important features: No pre-out/power-in facilities (their theater throughput notwithstanding, it may be remote accessible but 't'aint the same), limited record/copy jacks/switching, no phono pre-, no tone controls (and as previously stated, not all software is created equal). So, while the power may be remarkable, the unit is of no value to me...

Blue Jeans vs. Nordost? Has the former compared themself to the latter? I plead ignorance. Not in the market...still p!ssed at the Polk Cobras I bought a lifetime ago and I'm perfectly content with both my Discwasher ICs and 10gauge...From what I seen, BJ claims to be made of stout stuff at a reasonable price...while some hi-zoot wire companies remove the "made in China" labels or have their wonderous terminating networks revealed to be potted, run-of-the-mill caps and resistors...Insofar as Nordost is concerned, I recall Eyespy, who claimed to use that mfrs. wire, say he heard no difference, but used them in his system simply because he was expected to...plus they looked good...

And Bose? Well, we are all cogniscent of their marketing...and I'm curious, perhaps I'm incorrect, but aren't those cost/performance statements from reviewers or customers. Is the Wave Radio's performance far beyond what much of the general public is normally subjected to vis a' vis audio?...And while they (Bose) are ultimately responsible for what appears in their ads, it's really no different than any of the "unsolicited" accolades seen in much of the high-end marketing hype...Can wires provide more bass? Can they improve the soundstage or depth? Are they really an outgrowth of technologies that sent men to the moon? I've seen those claims also...

Which marketeering ploy should be subject of closer scrutiny?

Speaking of proof, what is the proof of this assertion? rw

To answer that, we'd have to go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear...of Eyespy, Monstrous Mike, mtrycrafts...somewhere in the archives, there are transcripts of a few e-mails between one of the then members and Klipsch regarding the subject...

jimHJJ(...as always, interesting...)

[E-Stat]

So, while the power may be remarkable, the unit is of no value to me...

So, why doesn't Panasonic capitalize on the shortcomings you mention? Our $200 XR receiver is just as good as the high priced Krell spread? They don't. No one has ever tried to exploit the "facts".

...still p!ssed at the Polk Cobras I bought a lifetime ago...

They did cause quite a firestorm with the unhappy results on many amps with their extremely high capacitance. Blew up quite a few they did.

Jbut used them in his system simply because he was expected to...plus they looked good...

Expected to? By whom?

I'm curious, perhaps I'm incorrect, but aren't those cost/performance statements from reviewers or customers.

Exactly. Why not prove their case with DBTs?

Can they improve the soundstage or depth?

Improve? No. In my experience, some can retain more of the signal's cues that provide such.

somewhere in the archives, there are transcripts of a few e-mails between one of the then members and Klipsch regarding the subject...

So someone spoke with an engineer at Klipsch and was told we "begrudgingly" added biwiring capability?

rw

[Resident Loser]

So, why doesn't Panasonic capitalize on the shortcomings you mention? Our $200 XR receiver is just as good as the high priced Krell spread? They don't. No one has ever tried to exploit the "facts".

IM oft-voiced O, the HT inanity has killed the market/need for these things....Mfrs. like Panasonic et al, simply provide the consumer what they have been told they want...You too can be just like Steven Spielberg with our $600 HTIB...And for the record "just as good"? Who said that? As far as I'm concerned the Marantz PM-7001 is way better than the Krell for my needs...unfortunately my niche group seems to be an anachronism and the Marantz is a rare bird...The high-end stuff? It's like a Caddy or Porsche SUV...why?


They did cause quite a firestorm with the unhappy results on many amps with their extremely high capacitance. Blew up quite a few they did.

Yep, my Pioneer SA-9100 integrated couldn't cope...worked great after the repairs with zip however...Stiil used as a pre-amp...bless it's connectable little heart...

Expected to? By whom?

You would have to ask him...Supposedly got them on the cheap, may have been in the audio biz? He played his cards close to the vest...

Exactly. Why not prove their case with DBTs?

Is someone asking them (I'll assume Bose) to do so? Why doesn't Shuyata or Tara or Nordost or whoever silence their critics with appropriate testing?...What about the hardware mfrs.? Are tube units more accurate or do they sound more euphonic to some? Are certain CDPs using off-the-shelf transports really "better" because the mfr. applies their particular sonic sig in the analog stages? Or puts them into some bits of industrial sculpture?

Improve? No. In my experience, some can retain more of the signal's cues that provide such.

Those are your thoughts on the matter, that isn't the point...I've seen those claims (anecdotal and otherwise) on many a mfrs. website (including the NASA connection) and in forum threads. And again (and again)...given the multiple mono, stereo simulation of a great deal of software, many of those "cues" are fabricated and never existed in nature. I for one refuse to limit my program material to "specialty" recordings...Been there, done that with the vinyl DtDs...

So someone spoke with an engineer at Klipsch and was told we "begrudgingly" added biwiring capability?

From what I recall it was e-mails and the words were something like catering to market demands...doesn't sound particulary gruntled to me...

jimHJJ(...shades of difference...)

[E-Stat]

IM oft-voiced O, the HT inanity has killed the market/need for these things....

Agreed. That does not explain, however, the past four or five decades.

The high-end stuff? It's like a Caddy or Porsche SUV...why?

I wouldn't use Cadillac as an example because there's no danger in confusing most Caddies with anything concerning performance. Most folks are quite content with Taurus levels of handling, acceleration, and braking. Others, however, desire the higher performance envelope of a BMW.

And again (and again)...given the multiple mono, stereo simulation of a great deal of software, many of those "cues" are fabricated and never existed in nature.

I don't limit my musical choices to only the best sounding ones either. There is more subtle information on recordings that most folks are aware of.

rw