Sighted Testing IS King!! Silly me - all those years wasted...

[musicoverall]

Great story, Magictooth! And very timely! And about salsa, yet! How coincidental! Here's a true story for you.

Just last night, I took my kiddies to Taco Bell, their favorite fast food joint. I grabbed what I thought was their Fire Sauce and put it on my Beef Grilled Stuft Burrito. After two bites, I thought it tasted funny - not hot enough. It was pretty obvious. I looked down and realized I had been given the mild sauce instead of the fire sauce I asked for.

But of course (biting sarcasm) I had to KNOW that it was the wrong packet, didn't I? God forbid, my SENSES could NOT have been correct! (sarcasm off).

And so Mr Magictooth... your point is...?

[magictooth]

Great story, Magictooth! And very timely! And about salsa, yet! How coincidental! Here's a true story for you.

Just last night, I took my kiddies to Taco Bell, their favorite fast food joint. I grabbed what I thought was their Fire Sauce and put it on my Beef Grilled Stuft Burrito. After two bites, I thought it tasted funny - not hot enough. It was pretty obvious. I looked down and realized I had been given the mild sauce instead of the fire sauce I asked for.

But of course (biting sarcasm) I had to KNOW that it was the wrong packet, didn't I? God forbid, my SENSES could NOT have been correct! (sarcasm off).

And so Mr Magictooth... your point is...?

You seem to be someone who is given to hyperbole. Are you sure that you're not TLADINY under a new moniker? You are the one missing the point. You said they gave you mild sauce when you wanted hot sauce. I gave my guests IDENTICAL salsa and said they were different. We'd have a closer parallel if the sauce in the different packages were the same.

[musicoverall]

You seem to be someone who is given to hyperbole. Are you sure that you're not TLADINY under a new moniker? You are the one missing the point. You said they gave you mild sauce when you wanted hot sauce. I gave my guests IDENTICAL salsa and said they were different. We'd have a closer parallel if the sauce in the different packages were the same.

Ok, my bad. I missed that. But I think it's an interesting, if meaningless in the context of cables, exercise you performed. Did it occur to you that your guests might have been trying to please you and were pulling your chain? After all, that's an excuse the naysayers use when an audiophile claims that his wife heard his system's difference when a cable or something was swapped. You're jumping to conclusions here.

Nope, not TLADINY. Odd name.

[magictooth]

Ok, my bad. I missed that. But I think it's an interesting, if meaningless in the context of cables, exercise you performed. Did it occur to you that your guests might have been trying to please you and were pulling your chain? After all, that's an excuse the naysayers use when an audiophile claims that his wife heard his system's difference when a cable or something was swapped. You're jumping to conclusions here.

Nope, not TLADINY. Odd name.

Not ignoring you, but I will check with them. Will get back ASAP on this issue. I hadn't thought of it actually, but to have 100% of subjects respond in one way is truly remarkable.

[musicoverall]

but to have 100% of subjects respond in one way is truly remarkable.

I would think so, too. I would also hazard a guess which you might be able to refute or verify that very few things that are tested blind and ARE truly different are caught 100% of the time by all participants. 100% in anything at all is remarkable.

Have their ever been any tests that you are aware of where the items under test are blatantly different? I'd be interested to see the scores of such a test. It might help in determining just how worthwhile blind testing is. As a silly example, has anyone with normal tastebuds incorrectly guessed "apple" while tasting an orange? Ever?

[magictooth]

I would think so, too. I would also hazard a guess which you might be able to refute or verify that very few things that are tested blind and ARE truly different are caught 100% of the time by all participants. 100% in anything at all is remarkable.

Have their ever been any tests that you are aware of where the items under test are blatantly different? I'd be interested to see the scores of such a test. It might help in determining just how worthwhile blind testing is. As a silly example, has anyone with normal tastebuds incorrectly guessed "apple" while tasting an orange? Ever?

Early email/IM returns on my question, "Did you think that the salsas that you were taste testing were different or were you just pulling my leg?" I've got 8 replies so far, although 2 people were like "Huh?" (I had to refresh their memories). All 8 out of 8 said that they had thought the salsa were different and that they weren't playing along for my benefit. One of the more common refrains was, "you're an *******," or equivalent.

My test was to point out the power of suggestion. This is the power of a sighted test.

You ask if there have been any tests that are blatantly different? Come on, there are thousands and thousands of blind studies out there that have proved that the effect is psychosomatic. All of those Phase III trials that suddenly disappear from a pharm or biotech company's press releases? Those are all failed blind tests. I'm pretty sure that you're serious here, but it's almost all that I can do to stop myself from ROTFLMAO.

Your example of an apple vs. orange is not applicable. A more applicable simile to taste would be detemining the sensitivity of taste buds. My numbers are definitely off, but here's the example. The threshold of sweet taste is say 200 PPM of sugar dissolved in water. If I gave 2 solutions, one containing 200 PPM and the other 220 PPM, but told the test subjects that the 200 PPM was the sweeter one in advance of the test, would you be surprised if most people chose the 200 PPM solution as sweeter? Maybe you would, but I wouldn't be that surprised. The power of suggestion is very strong. That's why all well drafted studies use blind testing.

Let me make a point clear about my stance: I don't believe every cable or piece of equipment sounds the same. I'm not your classic naysayer. My point is that in order to accurately determine whether there's a difference between 2 pieces of audio gear, a blind test needs to be conducted. If it makes you happy to listen to your piece over a 1 week, 1 month or whatever period YOU deem adequate, then you should do so, but take the time and do yourself a favour and perform a blind test.

Doing only sighted testing is cheating yourself, and it is cheating others when you propagate your biased view as fact.

[musicoverall]

You ask if there have been any tests that are blatantly different? Come on, there are thousands and thousands of blind studies out there that have proved that the effect is psychosomatic. All of those Phase III trials that suddenly disappear from a pharm or biotech company's press releases? Those are all failed blind tests. I'm pretty sure that you're serious here, but it's almost all that I can do to stop myself from ROTFLMAO.
.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Are there two products that are totally different tasting/sounding/whatever that were subjected to blind testing where the participants voted that they were no differences? Let's say we tested two receivers and we had the treble turned all the way off on one, as a different example from the apple vs orange example. Have participants failed in a blind test where there were in fact differences and differences that should have been obvious?

No need to try and stop yourself from laughing at me. Since you can't hurt my feelings, all you'd succeed in is hurting your own sides!