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  1. #51
    Forum Regular KaiWinters's Avatar
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    If you reverse your audio cables you will hear hidden messages in the content.

    These messages sound especially cool in 5.1...

    After reversing my "optical" cable I can now see those that have been watching us through our televisions..."I see network people"...

  2. #52
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    There once was a test where they took several people and made them look at several pictures of the same thing. They were also told that each picture, which was duplicated 5 times also had various degrees of quality. In other words...picture # 1 would be shown a total of 5 times and the viewers were suppose to pick out the one that had better quality. What the people did not realize is that all the pictures were the identical and had no differences, but they were told that they should notice an increase in quality as the pictures progress.

    During this test 9/10 of the test subjects claimed to have noticed the change, which clearly shows a classic example of the way the mind works. Sometimes you want to believe that there is a change. Sometimes you second guess your own senses. These people were telling their eyes to see change because that change was suppose to occur. They were afraid that if they didn't notice change that something must be wrong with them.

    I am not saying that cables or components do not make a drastic change, but often times people over-exaggerate the amount of change in order to feel better about the money spent on it. If you just spent $2000 on a cable...well, you will certainly hope that a change is noticed and you might have to reassure yourself even if that change is too small to even notice....just to justify your purchase.

  3. #53
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    The power of suggestion is remarkable, as superpanavision70 illustrates. That was one of the 'tricks of the trade" when comparing speakers: if you told the customer ahead of time what he'd hear when switching to the speaker model you wanted to sell, then the customer, more often than not, heard those things, whether or not they existed.

    Insofar as cables, I think that the amount of money some audiophiles spend on cables and interconnects borders on the insane, though I am a " believer." When I first replaced my 12-gauge "lamp cord" with "ordinary" Monster Cable, I was astonished at the immediate difference: considerably deeper, and better defined bass, and just about everything else better deliniated and clearer. I was hooked.

    Several years later, I purchased a set of Audioquest "Crystal" speaker cables for hundreds, and hundreds of dollars (even at my 50% off, "insider" discount), and thought they sounded horrible: loud (much louder, in fact) but incredibly harsh. The associate from whom I purchased these cables informed me that they needed to "burn-in." Indeed, after many hours of use, the harshness dissipated, and the sound was more tolerable. Still, I wasn't entirely sure they made a worthwhile difference from the "regular" Monster Cable.

    Then, I replaced them with Monster "Z" Series cables, terminating in a threaded end onto which I attatched Monster's banana plugs. NOW I heard a diffference immediately, and one in which there was a marked improvement.

    So, cables do indeed make a difference, but not always one that's good.

  4. #54
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    I should not be posting in these scientific ranks but....

    Everything I can refer to is anecdotal - sorry about that - but I just wanted to share some of my own experiences and maybe others can comment.

    Cable burn-in:

    I have never noticed a cable sound differently after 1, 100 or 1000 hours of play. I have failed to notice changes that probably have ocurred, however. Let me explain.

    Speaker cables - in place for a good few years - sound never seemed to change. Vistor points out that the ends of my cables have gone green (!) so one day I snip off the ends strip some of the insulation from the cable and re-connect to the speakers. They certainly sounded different to my ears after that - louder for a kick off (at a fixed volume level - my volume controls - there are 2 - one for each side, click round and I always listen at 5 clicks). I did not measure the volume change but it was obvious to both me and my wife.

    I do not believe that outside of oxidation the sound of a cable (does it have a sound?) changes. If it does then I would suspect something going on at the site of the connector rather than within the length of the cable itself.

    Having said that if I sat through a steady deterioration of my sound over the years without ever noticing who am I to pass judgement?

    Burn-in for other components:

    I only ever tried to do this once with some semblence of science - and that was accidental. When I bought a new DVD/CD/DIVX etc. player (a Pioneer 575) I thought it sounded rather worse than my existing CD player (A Marantz CD6000) when playing audio CD's.

    I had heard of burn in and items changing over time so I spent a week only playing the Pioneer as the source - pretty much constantly (I left it playing overnight on repeat with the volume off - whenever I remembered). I guess that within that first week the unit played about 100 hours all in.

    During the course of the week the sound improved dramatically to me. I found myself listening to CD's and hearing thing I never heard before (you know the stuff from the audiophile reviews).

    Anyway after that week I switched back to the Marantz and did a comparison. I was convinced that by now the Pioneer would sound much much better than the Marantz. It did not. Comparing the sound I observed exactly the same differences I had observed previously.

    This implies that either everything that I thought I had heard changing was entirely in my mind, or, the Marantz had benefited from the week off. I can't say that the Marantz sounded better than I recalled after a few days of normal use - although it did sound great that first night.

    Related issues:

    Warmup.

    Whilst I do not beleive in burn-in I do believe that some components benefit from being allowed to warm up before starting playback. This is less of an issue now that I have a solid state amp - but in the days when I was running tubes the sound did change within the first 5 minutes or so from initial switch on. I used to religiously switch the amps on and leave them be for about 20 minutes prior to playback because of this. Now my SS amp is in stand-by mode all the time and as such playback is indistinguishable from the first moment to the last of the listening session - to me anyway.

    Recently I borrowed a friend's digital amp (Yamaha MX-D1 - 500 wpc/8 ohms). When he gave it to me he said - "It needs 3 days to warm up properly - so dont listen to it till Saturday night - just plug it in and leave it."

    Why would a digital amp need 3 days to warm up? I did follow the instructions though - it was his amp after all.

  5. #55
    Forum Regular Chas Underhay's Avatar
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    Break in or burn in period probably equates to the time it takes for the wife of some pr@t who has just spent more per linear metre on a piece of copper wire than he has ever spent per linear metre on a gold necklace for her to cease telling him what a complete idiot he's been.

  6. #56
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    Cables do experience a certain amount of settling that will alter the sonic characteristics of the coupling between either the amp and speakers or between components via interconnects. The science isn't vodoo or magic, but rather well documented and accepted principles. The problem arises in skepticism by the engineering community about whether these engineering principles could possibly be audible given the low level current being considered. Throw in some good ol American marketing hogwash used by the cable companies and you create an immediate skepticism that is both healthy and natural.

    Never-the-less, the truth is in the listening. Whether or not someone can hear these differences and how much value they might place on these differences should they be able to hear them, is a value judgement that only the listener can determine.

    For some people, a $10 roll of Radio Shack speaker wire is the appropriate wire to use in their system. For others, price is secondary to their love of sound quality.

  7. #57
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    Cables do experience a certain amount of settling that will alter the sonic characteristics of the coupling between either the amp and speakers or between components via interconnects. The science isn't vodoo or magic, but rather well documented and accepted principles.

    Really? Please produce it, I'd like a good read . . .

    -Bruce

  8. #58
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    I'm certainly skeptical about cable burn-in. In fact, I'm very skeptical about a lot of the claims made in regard to cables. While I certainly believe that cables are an important component of any hi-fi system, and better quality cables can make a noticeable difference in audio quality, I think there are a lot of manufacturers who have played on this idea and taken it to an extreme so that they can get away with charging over-inflated prices for their products. I upgraded the speaker cables and interconnects in my system with some moderately priced, good quality items, and noticed a worthwhile improvement in performance. I avoided the over-marketed, over-priced brands.

    I certainly do believe that burn-in is a reality for other products though. Speakers, in particular, are subject to it. The sound from my current speakers (VAF DC-X's) changed noticeably over the first couple of weeks. I think the speaker cones require some time to loosen up before they reach their optimal performance. I think amplifiers probably require some 'burn-in' too when they are new, but I suspect that some of the apparent change in performance is subjective, and is probaably due in part to the listener adjusting their perceptions to how the equipment sounds.

  9. #59
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    What cables do you use now?

    I do believe the cable also is subject to break in, just not like speakers. The sounds changes a little, but not that much...

    Cables, overall, do make a Huge difference though...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  10. #60
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    I certainly agree that cables make a big difference. I've proved that for myself.

    I couldn't tell you the particular brand of the cables I'm using. My speaker cable was thrown in as a bonus by the VAF people when I bought my speakers from them. I also bought some mid level interconnects from them. There was a noticeable improvement in the sound when I added them into my system. I've also bi-wired my main speakers, and that has also made an audible improvement.

  11. #61
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emesbee
    I've also bi-wired my main speakers, and that has also made an audible improvement.

    bi-wiring depends from system to system...

    There are also some manufacturers that don't believe in bi-wiring, and their speakers don't support it neither. most of the times, their theory is that bi-wiring adds phase disortion.

    a couple of examples are: Thiel, Kharma, Avalon,...,

    myself, I rather believe in running a really good single-wire cable and have a speaker with an exellent first order crossover, instead of a (more expensive, for what basically is the same cable) bi-wire cable. But of course, I'm biased (owning a pair of Thiels, that don't support bi-wiring)

    bi-amping, however, I do believe makes a difference...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  12. #62
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    The value, or otherwise, of bi-wiring certainly does depend on the individual system. Since my main speakers are bi-wireable, I considered that it was relatively inexpensive to buy some extra speaker cable and give it a try. The results have certainly been worthwhile in my system.

    Whether the bi-wiring itself actually makes a difference I couldn't really say. Maybe the improvement is simply due to the extra thickness of cable being used. I don't really know.

    I expect bi-amping would make a significant difference, but that is obviously a higher cost option.

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